Evidence for God from Science

PaulSacramento wrote:but it can also be said that it is implied that Peter did it.

ummmm no. It will always be the HS working throught the believer which is doing the works.

"The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

Thank you, PaulSacramento, for agreeing with me that it is reasonable to assume that Ananias and Sapphira had been baptized with the others and had received the Holy Spirit, making them believers. Other readers would also probably agree, too.

I suspect that there is a good chance that we will see or hear of Ananias and Sapphira again in the next life, after they appear in one of the resurrections. I think their premature deaths were meant to serve as an example for the rest of us, that certain laws are still quite in effect and that we must try to obey them. The reason why I think A and S will probably regain their salvation is because of what Hebrews 6:6 says: that it is an overall "falling away" from righteousness that is unforgiveable. 1 Corinthians 6:9,10, though, reveals regularly, unrepentedly being just a thief, or just a drunkard, or just an extortionist, while being righteous otherwise, apparently can doom a Christian, if the Bible means what it says. A falling away generally takes time and usually takes longer than a few hours or days, it would seem, which is probably the time period A & S were in from sale of land to their fatal encounter with Peter. Also, there are one or more verses in the Bible that tell us if we remorsefully confess our sins to Jesus, then He will forgive them. In the one or two seconds that A & S realized they had made a horrific mistake, they did not have time to confess their sin to anybody, so that lack of opportunity to repent would have been inconsistent with those verses telling us to confess our sins. So I really think they will be given an opportunity to repent, but of course I don't know for sure.

Christians don't have to "tiptoe around" terrified that they will break some spiritual law that will send them to the approaching inferno that will be hot enough to even evaporate the oceans (Hebrews 6:8, Hebrews 10:27, Matthew 13:41,42, 2 Peter 3:7, 10,12 Isaiah 66:22, Revelation 21:1). (RickD, if I am incorrect here, please do correct me so that I can better understand these Scriptures. I don't want to make any mistakes.) The opportunity to repent and mercy from Jesus, who will judge us, is comforting and re-assuring. A proverb tells us that the "righteous are at ease."

Canuckster1127 wrote:Works based salvation/sanctification = We do in order that we might become .....
Grace based salvation/sanctification = We recognize what we have become in Christ, and we do because of who we are.

Acts of holiness we do as our minimal duty as we reflect God. You can't work for the reward but you can work to lose it. The HS is the indwelling helper to help us do what we can't do alone, but that doesn't mean we don't try at all. A helper is a concept that is defined as;

helper
one that helps
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/helper

help
to give assistance or support to
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/helps

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever...
John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you . . . .
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses...

Fact of physics and life no one can be defined as a helper if they do all the work.

KBC wrote:
Fact of physics and life no one can be defined as a helper if they do all the work.

KBC, how does that "fact" hold up when it comes to the sanctification of a believer?

RickD wrote:

KBC wrote:
Fact of physics and life no one can be defined as a helper if they do all the work.

KBC, how does that "fact" hold up when it comes to the sanctification of a believer?

What does sanctification of a believer have anything to do with one who decides he is no longer a believer?

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:

KBC wrote:
Fact of physics and life no one can be defined as a helper if they do all the work.

KBC, how does that "fact" hold up when it comes to the sanctification of a believer?

What does sanctification of a believer have anything to do with one who decides he is no longer a believer?

Byblos, I use the term "believer" synonymously with "new creature in Christ", "child of God", "Christian", "one who has placed his faith in Christ for salvation", "one who has the deposit(HS) guaranteeing what is to come", etc. By giving us the indwelling Holy Spirit, God has anointed us, and set His seal of ownership in us. Do you understand what that means? God has claimed us for His own! Unless you think God will disown His children because of sin? Yes, unbelief is a sin. Did Christ pay for all of your sins? Or was his sacrifice only good enough to pay for 99% of them? Do you have any children? If one of those children decides he is no longer one of your children, does that mean that he's not your son anymore? Once we are believers, we become children of God. Nothing can change that.

I asked the question to KBC, because I wanted to see if he believes God is a "helper" according to his meaning, in the lifelong process of sanctification.
Byblos, you can answer too. Do we as believers sanctify ourselves with God's help? Or does God do the sanctifying?

A believer cannot lose his salvation. Why? Because God will not allow it!

2 Corinthians 1:21-22:
. 21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

A believer can now live by the spirit, as one approved by God. Instead of living as one striving for God's approval.

RickD wrote:A believer cannot lose his salvation. Why? Because God will not allow it!

2 Corinthians 1:21-22:
. 21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

A believer can now live by the spirit, as one approved by God. Instead of living as one striving for God's approval.

We've discussed this many times before Rick and as you know I am well aware of all the arguments on both sides so I don't mean to intrude on the discussion with KBC. Other than the theological/scriptural arguments we've hashed over the years, however, for me it boils down to a matter of free will. If man is truly free to choose God, it ought to follow that man is also truly free to separate from God. Anything less is nothing but coercion.

Byblos, what does it mean to be "born again"? And, after one is born again, can one become un-born again?

RickD wrote:Byblos, what does it mean to be "born again"? And, after one is born again, can one become un-born again?

No, of course not. But being born again does not preclude the heir from losing the inheritance (eternal life) while remaining a son (of God), much the same way the prodigal son would still have been dead had he not returned to the father. If he did not return, would he have lost his status as a son? No. Nevertheless, he would still have remained dead without his return.

I guess maybe we don't agree to the meaning of born again. Would you agree to this definition from CARM?

Being born again was spoken of by Jesus in John 3:3-10.  Literally, the Greek says “born from above” and it is the regeneration that occurs when a person becomes a Christian, is made a new creature (2 Cor. 5:17), is no longer dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1), and no longer spiritually blind (1 Cor. 2:14).
 

I think how one views this, has an influence on one's belief about eternal security.

CARM also has this as a RC definition of born again:

  In Catholicism being born again is the transformation that occurs when a person is water baptized and all his sins are then removed and God’s grace is infused into the person.  He is then in a state of sanctifying grace until he commits sufficient sin to have fallen from his “baptismal grace” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 1446) and is no longer born again.

Is this closer to what you believe?

Either way, I don't want to make this into another eternal security thread. But, I think it makes a great discussion, and it is relevant to this thread.

Sorry, here's the link:http://carm.org/false-born-again
I'm not even sure if CARM is giving an accurate description of the RC belief. That's why I'm asking you.

RickD wrote:Sorry, here's the link:http://carm.org/false-born-again
I'm not even sure if CARM is giving an accurate description of the RC belief. That's why I'm asking you.

'...until he is no longer born again'? I have no idea where they got this from but it's certainly not a Catholic belief. We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins, one. If one is un-born again, would he not be in need of re-baptizing?

2 Corinthians 1:21,22 was quoted above as a supporting verse that a Christian can feel that his salvation is secure. If someone thinks that the Holy Spirit mentioned in that verse is given by God to whoever wants it, unconditionally, well, what are you going to do about Acts 5:32 which says: " ...... The Holy Spirit, which God gave to those who OBEY Him ......" (New Simplified Bible)? Delete the verse? Claim it is irrelevant? Claim the Bible does not mean what it says?

Further evidence that receiving the Holy Spirit is well, I hate to say it among you guys, fairly conditional is Acts 2:38 which says: "REPENT, and ...... be baptized ...... FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS; and you shall receive ...... the Holy Spirit." (New King James Version) It really does look like something needs to be repented of just to get the Holy Spirit in the first place, before you can start feeling assured of salvation. If you disagree with me, so be it. I am only quoting Scriptures.

JUDE 1:4: "For certain men have come among you ......, men WITHOUT THE FEAR OF GOD, turning His grace into an unclean thing, and false to ...... Jesus Christ." --- Bible in Basic English

JUDE 1:4: "Some sinful men ...... speak of the loving--favor of God to COVER UP THEIR SINS. They have turned against ...... Jesus ...... it was written that these people would die in their sins." --- New Life Bible

JUDE 1:4: "Some godless people ..... EVEN DENY THAT WE MUST OBEY JESUS ....." --- Contemporary English Version

JUDE 1:4: "For certain men ...... ungodly (impious, profane) persons who pervert the grace ...... of our God into LAWLESSNESS and wantonness ......, and disown and deny ...... Jesus Christ ......" --- The Amplified Bible

ROMANS 6:16: "...... if we OBEY Christ, we ...... enjoy His righteousness. None enjoy this blessedness, but those who ...... OBEY Christ." --- People's New Testament

Regarding being "born again," Jesus said plainly that "flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of God" and "goes about like the wind," invisible, but capable of also being physical at will. Translation: Being born again is quite literal. Born again Christians are literally immortal spirit beings, not physical ones. When the resurrection comes, then Christians will be born into a new spiritual body. Again, if you disagree with me, so be it. I am only quoting Scriptures.

The above was not copied from anyone else's website. The quotes, etc. are from my own notes, studies, etc.

Wolfgang wrote:
2 Corinthians 1:21,22 was quoted above as a supporting verse that a Christian can feel that his salvation is secure.

Wolfgang, when I talk about assurance of salvation, my meaning of assurance is not the same as yours. Assurance is a promise. Not a confidence or feeling of certainty. Assurance of salvation is literally the promise of salvation. The promise from God that once He has saved someone, that person is eternally secure. Just because a believer may or may not have a feeling of assurance, is not relevant. The believer has the promise of salvation from God.

Wolfgang wrote:
If someone thinks that the Holy Spirit mentioned in that verse is given by God to whoever wants it, unconditionally, well, what are you going to do about Acts 5:32 which says: " ...... The Holy Spirit, which God gave to those who OBEY Him ......" (New Simplified Bible)? Delete the verse? Claim it is
irrelevant? Claim the Bible does not mean what it says?

Wolfgang, obeying God for salvation is as simple as this:
John 6:29:
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Wolfgang wrote:
Further evidence that receiving the Holy Spirit is well, I hate to say it among you guys, fairly conditional is Acts 2:38 which says: "REPENT, and ...... be baptized .....

Wolfgang, first, I believe you are using the incorrect definition of "repent". The meaning of repent here is "a change of mind". Specifically, a change of mind about who Jesus Christ is, and what he has done regarding your salvation.
Secondly, you are assuming that "baptized" in all contexts is referring to water baptism. When one repents, by changing his mind on who Jesus Christ is, and places his faith in Christ for salvation, then one is baptized by God with the power of the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is not the baptism that saves.
Thirdly, the context of Acts 2 is a specific instance of the Holy Spirit being given to those specific people for a purpose.

Wolfgang wrote:
It really does look like something needs to be repented of just to get the Holy Spirit in the first place, before you can start feeling assured of salvation. If you disagree with me, so be it. I am only quoting Scriptures.

It's convenient that you summed up your argument in this one sentence that shows your misunderstandings of the meaning of repent, and your misunderstanding that assurance is a feeling, not the correct meaning in this context, which is "promise".