Evidence for God from Science

PaulSacramento wrote:Perfection is not a state of being for humans but a state of "becoming".
God is perfect or He can't be "GOD".
The very understanding of the word God to a Judeo-Christian-Islamic believer means the ONLY perfect being in existence.
Can God create perfection?
That is kind of like asking can God create a square circle or a married bachelor to a certain extent but perhaps more correctly a stone to heavy that He can't move it.
God can't create Himself and since ONLY He is perfect then He would be creating Himself.
God can BEGET perfection, as we have in The Word, His Son Jesus.
God can create "very good" but perfection is not "possible" because, again, only God is perfect and that means creating Himself.

Oh Boy!…… Really!!!?!

This is what happens when a mind so blindly accepts a belief that they are unable to objectively examine what it is that they believe.

I am trying to be gentle with how I address this response, but there is really no other way but through direct, no frills reproach.

This lends absolutely nothing of value to the conversation at hand.

This isn't a discussion about God creating 'himself', it's about God creating a human being…. Did you really think I was suggesting that we have some innate ability tucked away where we could become a God, create a dragon to jump on and ride off into the cosmos? I don't entertain discussions about stones too heavy to lift for the very same obvious reason.

I'm pretty certain God could create not just a "very good" sphere, but a "perfect" sphere without fear that 'he'd' be creating himself in doing so.

I'm equally certain that God could create a perfect (sinless) human being, with the perfect capacity and potential for knowledge and understanding (even though I do have my doubts at times )…. I'm also positive that God could create a human being with the perfect capacity for the expression of love.

Everywhere I search this observable world, I am dumbstruck by the brilliance and perfection of it.

And here we are yet again, back at the beginning (imagine that) faced with the very same question.
Round and round and………………

Repeat

Revolutionary wrote:How does a perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent being create something imperfect?

We are either innately perfect, marred by our own fear and doubt to see otherwise; or we are innately imperfect, created as a perpetual model of 'unescapable' sin.

Now, if we are innately perfect, how can we refuse or deny that the same perfection exists within every life and every mind?
How can we not envision within that innate perfection, how humanity would actually operate if it were realized by and for all; and begin striving to create that tangible model/arena in order to produce a perfect reflection that is capable of demonstrating and nurturing it as an embodiment?
How can we not understand within that innate perfection, going around convincing minds that they are all sinful and that the only escape is through a savior, that it is highly contrary to such an embodiment?
How can we discard a single life and a single mind when we have the knowledge that it is innately perfect and that there is a real and tangible solution to it's full realization?

Or are we innately imperfect, created within a point of containment (sin), chasing our tail around and around in a giant circle always back to the beginning, stepping over lives as they fall along the path? We are commanded to believe that we are all sinful and that the only path of escaping that sin is by accepting a savior? Round and round and round it goes......

This passage comes to mind:
Ezekiel 28:12b-15
“ ‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.b
Your settings and mountingsc were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

Revolutionary wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Perfection is not a state of being for humans but a state of "becoming".
God is perfect or He can't be "GOD".
The very understanding of the word God to a Judeo-Christian-Islamic believer means the ONLY perfect being in existence.
Can God create perfection?
That is kind of like asking can God create a square circle or a married bachelor to a certain extent but perhaps more correctly a stone to heavy that He can't move it.
God can't create Himself and since ONLY He is perfect then He would be creating Himself.
God can BEGET perfection, as we have in The Word, His Son Jesus.
God can create "very good" but perfection is not "possible" because, again, only God is perfect and that means creating Himself.

Oh Boy!…… Really!!!?!

This is what happens when a mind so blindly accepts a belief that they are unable to objectively examine what it is that they believe.

I am trying to be gentle with how I address this response, but there is really no other way but through direct, no frills reproach.

This lends absolutely nothing of value to the conversation at hand.

This isn't a discussion about God creating 'himself', it's about God creating a human being…. Did you really think I was suggesting that we have some innate ability tucked away where we could become a God, create a dragon to jump on and ride off into the cosmos? I don't entertain discussions about stones too heavy to lift for the very same obvious reason.

I'm pretty certain God could create not just a "very good" sphere, but a "perfect" sphere without fear that 'he'd' be creating himself in doing so.

I'm equally certain that God could create a perfect (sinless) human being, with the perfect capacity and potential for knowledge and understanding (even though I do have my doubts at times )…. I'm also positive that God could create a human being with the perfect capacity for the expression of love.

Everywhere I search this observable world, I am dumbstruck by the brilliance and perfection of it.

And here we are yet again, back at the beginning (imagine that) faced with the very same question.
Round and round and………………

Repeat

Revolutionary wrote:How does a perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent being create something imperfect?

We are either innately perfect, marred by our own fear and doubt to see otherwise; or we are innately imperfect, created as a perpetual model of 'unescapable' sin.

Now, if we are innately perfect, how can we refuse or deny that the same perfection exists within every life and every mind?
How can we not envision within that innate perfection, how humanity would actually operate if it were realized by and for all; and begin striving to create that tangible model/arena in order to produce a perfect reflection that is capable of demonstrating and nurturing it as an embodiment?
How can we not understand within that innate perfection, going around convincing minds that they are all sinful and that the only escape is through a savior, that it is highly contrary to such an embodiment?
How can we discard a single life and a single mind when we have the knowledge that it is innately perfect and that there is a real and tangible solution to it's full realization?

Or are we innately imperfect, created within a point of containment (sin), chasing our tail around and around in a giant circle always back to the beginning, stepping over lives as they fall along the path? We are commanded to believe that we are all sinful and that the only path of escaping that sin is by accepting a savior? Round and round and round it goes......

That you don't get the argument or agree is not my concern.

RickD wrote:This passage comes to mind:
Ezekiel 28:12b-15
“ ‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.b
Your settings and mountingsc were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

That is not a statement on the perfection of Adam - Perfect like God or Perfection personified.
That is poetic speak to show to what degree Adam fell.
His perfection was one of "obeying and serving God totally", until he screwed up.
There is no perfection, at least not in the absolute sense that we think of it, except God.
Now, in the strict sense of the word:

perfect
adjective
ˈpəːfɪkt/
1.
having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.
"she strove to be the perfect wife"
synonyms: ideal, model, without fault, faultless, flawless, consummate, quintessential, exemplary, best, best-example, ultimate, copybook More
superb, exquisite, superlative, excellent, wonderful, marvellous, beautiful, sublime, magnificent, idyllic, blissful, utopian;
unrivalled, unequalled, matchless, unparalleled, beyond compare, without equal, second to none, too good to be true, unmatched, incomparable, nonpareil, peerless, inimitable, unexcelled, unsurpassed, unsurpassable;
informalout of this world, terrific, fantastic, fabulous, great, super, heavenly, glorious, gorgeous, stellar, divine, phenomenal, sensational, dreamy, fab, fabby, fantabulous, awesome, to die for, magic, ace;
informalbrilliant, brill, bosting;
rareunexampled, indefectible
free from any flaw or defect in condition or quality; faultless.
"the equipment was in perfect condition"
synonyms: flawless, mint, as good as new, pristine, impeccable, immaculate, superb, superlative, optimum, prime, optimal, peak, excellent, faultless, as sound as a bell, unspoilt, unblemished, undamaged, spotless, unmarred, unimpaired; More
precisely accurate; exact.
"a perfect circle"
synonyms: exact, precise, accurate, faithful, correct, unerring, right, close, true, strict; More
antonyms: imperfect, faulty, defective
highly suitable for someone or something; exactly right.
"Giles was perfect for her—ten years older and with his own career"
synonyms: ideal, just right, right, appropriate, fitting, fit, suitable, apt, made to order, tailor-made; More
dated
thoroughly trained in or conversant with.
"she was perfect in French"
2.
absolute; complete (used for emphasis).
"a perfect stranger"
synonyms: absolute, complete, total, real, out-and-out, thorough, thoroughgoing, downright, utter, sheer, consummate, unmitigated, unqualified, veritable, in every respect, unalloyed; More
3.
MATHEMATICS
(of a number) equal to the sum of its positive divisors, e.g. the number 6, whose divisors (1, 2, 3) also add up to 6.
4.
GRAMMAR
(of a tense) denoting a completed action or a state or habitual action which began in the past. The perfect tense is formed in English with have or has and the past participle, as in they have eaten and they have been eating ( present perfect ), they had eaten ( past perfect ), and they will have eaten ( future perfect ).
5.
BOTANY
(of a flower) having both stamens and carpels present and functional.
ENTOMOLOGY
(of an insect) fully adult and (typically) winged.
6.
BOTANY
denoting the stage or state of a fungus in which the sexually produced spores are formed.
verb
verb: perfect; 3rd person present: perfects; past tense: perfected; past participle: perfected; gerund or present participle: perfecting
pəˈfɛkt/
1.
make (something) completely free from faults or defects; make as good as possible.

In THAT regard, yes God can make a perfect Human if that means "as good as possible".
Of course then you have to define what "as good as possible" means.
Can someone be perfect up until they are not?
Or does that mean they were never perfect?

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:This passage comes to mind:
<a href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Ezekiel%2028.12b-15" class="lbsBibleRef" data-reference="Ezekiel 28.12b-15" data-version="nasb95" target="_blank">Ezekiel 28:12b-15</a>
“ ‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.b
Your settings and mountingsc were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

That is not a statement on the perfection of Adam - Perfect like God or Perfection personified.
That is poetic speak to show to what degree Adam fell.
His perfection was one of "obeying and serving God totally", until he screwed up.
There is no perfection, at least not in the absolute sense that we think of it, except God.
Now, in the strict sense of the word:

perfect
adjective
ˈpəːfɪkt/
1.
having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.
"she strove to be the perfect wife"
synonyms: ideal, model, without fault, faultless, flawless, consummate, quintessential, exemplary, best, best-example, ultimate, copybook More
superb, exquisite, superlative, excellent, wonderful, marvellous, beautiful, sublime, magnificent, idyllic, blissful, utopian;
unrivalled, unequalled, matchless, unparalleled, beyond compare, without equal, second to none, too good to be true, unmatched, incomparable, nonpareil, peerless, inimitable, unexcelled, unsurpassed, unsurpassable;
informalout of this world, terrific, fantastic, fabulous, great, super, heavenly, glorious, gorgeous, stellar, divine, phenomenal, sensational, dreamy, fab, fabby, fantabulous, awesome, to die for, magic, ace;
informalbrilliant, brill, bosting;
rareunexampled, indefectible
free from any flaw or defect in condition or quality; faultless.
"the equipment was in perfect condition"
synonyms: flawless, mint, as good as new, pristine, impeccable, immaculate, superb, superlative, optimum, prime, optimal, peak, excellent, faultless, as sound as a bell, unspoilt, unblemished, undamaged, spotless, unmarred, unimpaired; More
precisely accurate; exact.
"a perfect circle"
synonyms: exact, precise, accurate, faithful, correct, unerring, right, close, true, strict; More
antonyms: imperfect, faulty, defective
highly suitable for someone or something; exactly right.
"Giles was perfect for her—ten years older and with his own career"
synonyms: ideal, just right, right, appropriate, fitting, fit, suitable, apt, made to order, tailor-made; More
dated
thoroughly trained in or conversant with.
"she was perfect in French"
2.
absolute; complete (used for emphasis).
"a perfect stranger"
synonyms: absolute, complete, total, real, out-and-out, thorough, thoroughgoing, downright, utter, sheer, consummate, unmitigated, unqualified, veritable, in every respect, unalloyed; More
3.
MATHEMATICS
(of a number) equal to the sum of its positive divisors, e.g. the number 6, whose divisors (1, 2, 3) also add up to 6.
4.
GRAMMAR
(of a tense) denoting a completed action or a state or habitual action which began in the past. The perfect tense is formed in English with have or has and the past participle, as in they have eaten and they have been eating ( present perfect ), they had eaten ( past perfect ), and they will have eaten ( future perfect ).
5.
BOTANY
(of a flower) having both stamens and carpels present and functional.
ENTOMOLOGY
(of an insect) fully adult and (typically) winged.
6.
BOTANY
denoting the stage or state of a fungus in which the sexually produced spores are formed.
verb
verb: perfect; 3rd person present: perfects; past tense: perfected; past participle: perfected; gerund or present participle: perfecting
pəˈfɛkt/
1.
make (something) completely free from faults or defects; make as good as possible.

In THAT regard, yes God can make a perfect Human if that means "as good as possible".
Of course then you have to define what "as good as possible" means.
Can someone be perfect up until they are not?
Or does that mean they were never perfect?

Actually Paul, I was taking the Ezekiel passage to be about satan, not Adam. But my point is that in one sense, lucifer was created as perfect.

Maybe you two are using a different meaning of 'perfect'.

Revolutionary wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:I really have no idea of what this guy is on about, none of it makes any sense to me.

So I am going to bow out now, I have said my thoughts as best I can but I would like to leave the following.

If the infinite void exists then there must be infinite possible universes and that means the Christian God exists in one possible universe, which means that being the Christian God by his definition must exists in all possible universes, which means the Christian God exists.

This is why I find an infinite void ludicrous.

You're really going to follow PaulSacramento's post, eat it up and then declare that what I say makes no sense?



You know, I didn't even entertain responding to the numerous times you were arguing an infinite void against me because it wasn't really worth the time.... But you continue to bring it up!
Let's finally put that one to bed so that you can then gracefully bow out.
For the sake of 'easy' understanding, I began discussing an infinite arena free of any mass; hence, a void! How you got stuck on the first step/set up of the discussion is rather confusing to me!!?
Never once did I suggest an infinite void beyond a postulate for an easy understanding of an infinite arena..... You missed the point that if a universe can be created from a singularity (homage to Byblos) just once in an infinite arena (nobody has yet been able to demonstrate, elude too or even theorize a finite point of containment), it also demonstrates an infinite number of occurrences as it pertains to an infinite probability. I am in fact arguing the very distinct probability of infinite mass, you would know this if you were actually paying attention.
This is the inherent problem with belief; it spends so much energy focuses on disregarding anything existing outside of it's confines, that it loses all aspects of objectivity.

You have yet to demonstrate any evidence for your assertions. You claim you are published but refuse to provide evidence of such or any peer reviews, not even privately with a moderator, where your anonymity can be reasonably assured. Unless and until you do so, Quod Gratis Asseritur, Gratis Negatur.

RickD wrote: Actually Paul, I was taking the Ezekiel passage to be about satan, not Adam. But my point is that in one sense, lucifer was created as perfect.

Maybe you two are using a different meaning of 'perfect'.

That is just it and why I posted the definition for perfect.
In regards to creating an absolute perfect being, God "can't" do it because only HE is absolutely perfect.
If we are talking about a being that is as perfect as can be ie: as good as possible, then Yes God can do that.

Revolutionary wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:I really have no idea of what this guy is on about, none of it makes any sense to me.

So I am going to bow out now, I have said my thoughts as best I can but I would like to leave the following.

If the infinite void exists then there must be infinite possible universes and that means the Christian God exists in one possible universe, which means that being the Christian God by his definition must exists in all possible universes, which means the Christian God exists.

This is why I find an infinite void ludicrous.

You're really going to follow PaulSacramento's post, eat it up and then declare that what I say makes no sense?



You know, I didn't even entertain responding to the numerous times you were arguing an infinite void against me because it wasn't really worth the time.... But you continue to bring it up!
Let's finally put that one to bed so that you can then gracefully bow out.
For the sake of 'easy' understanding, I began discussing an infinite arena free of any mass; hence, a void! How you got stuck on the first step/set up of the discussion is rather confusing to me!!?
Never once did I suggest an infinite void beyond a postulate for an easy understanding of an infinite arena..... You missed the point that if a universe can be created from a singularity (homage to Byblos) just once in an infinite arena (nobody has yet been able to demonstrate, elude too or even theorize a finite point of containment), it also demonstrates an infinite number of occurrences as it pertains to an infinite probability. I am in fact arguing the very distinct probability of infinite mass, you would know this if you were actually paying attention.
This is the inherent problem with belief; it spends so much energy focuses on disregarding anything existing outside of it's confines, that it loses all aspects of objectivity.

The only reason I am discarding your beliefs is that they make no coherrant sense whatsoever, there is no substance to them and they hold no weight. I tried to "expand" my mind into you beliefs, but they defy logic and reason.

You can believe in you fairy tale if you like but I will stick with logic and reason.

If you can provide some actual proof or a logical argument then I will consider them with an open mind but until that time I shall wait patiently.

Lunalle wrote:

B. W. wrote: Is your father still crippled?

No, and that is obviously not enough to convince me God exists.

And why ought God convince you of His existence? I always find it amusing that an Atheist would expect God to show himself as beckoned.

Directed at other Christians here. I'm not sure whether this is very Evangelical in nature... and sorry Danny, a bit unrelated to this thread...

But, one reason I lose interest in discussions with Atheists, is probably because I find myself quite content with leaving a hardened willingly blind person to themselves. A main reason I even stepped down as a moderator of this board, as I just didn't share to same passion towards Atheists that I once did.

Whatever happens between a willingly ignorant person and God is between them. I figure, someone whose heart is willing, will eventually start seeking out God by unturning rocks which unpicks their blinders of ignorance one by one. If I see someone making some effort I will still try give them something to think about. But say the likes of Lunalle, it'll take some major life experiences to unpick what he/she (?) has already sewn in ignorance.

"that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened."

Relating this back to the topic of the thread, it is interesting that God revealing Himself in Christ still cloaks Himself to creation. Even using something so foolish as the cross, to perplex many and yet save those who understand -- "but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,"

Therefore whatever God would say, I'd expect will still be cloaked as to camouflage His true identity... so as to not overpower our freedom to deny and follow our heart's true desire. So I'd expect someone like Christ, but obviously this is retrospectively influenced by my own Christian beliefs. The God of Islam would be much different, if Allah would even lower himself to bother with comparatively insignificant creatures like ourselves. Insha'Allah.

A definition is applied through context; with context being the most important factor in understanding that definition.

Just because you twist up the context to match your belief, doesn't allow you to simply choose (cherry pick) a portion of that definition and forget the rest in order to justify an argument.

Here is a demonstration of how context works….
A perfect circle is not a perfect square, nor is it a perfect triangle. You don't just jump ship and start making declarations that it is therefore impossible to have a perfect shape of any sort because it can't embody all of them.

A human being as a form is likewise applied in the context of it's environment, it is either a perfect reflection of that environment or it will cease to exist….. We are pushing in the direction of the latter.

It must eat to fuel that form and expel waste, and there is a perfect and optimal balance of what is consumed in order to strengthen and propagate that form….. Again we are devolving and damaging that form in our demonstration of a severe imbalance in what we are consuming. We are depleting nutrient levels of our food in our industrialized agriculture practices along with chemical fertilizers and pesticides; and then processing it, adding color, salt, sugars and preservatives… And then we fortify it with chemically derived vitamins and minerals? And we wonder why we are sick and finding genetic predisposition towards it?
It's sensory perception is a perfect reflection of what it's environment demonstrates as a necessity for that form…. It's cognitive ability is again exactly the same, a perfect reflection…..
Again we are dulling and devolving those senses by creating a sterile and deplete environment on one hand; and as previously described, a highly toxic one on the other.
Our cognitive ability is fed by a system of education that focuses first and foremost on feeding the mind information. It rewards it's ability to memorize that information, regurgitate it and apply it to the model it's given.... And we wonder why minds can't see the value of a human life to include their own? We wonder why we are plagued with mental illnesses and gross deviant behaviors?
It doesn't actually take much to understand that knowledge as it relates to information is only temporal; if history has shown us anything, it tells us that we know nothing.
Essentially we are feeding the mind information that is garbage; we should be intelligent enough by now to understand this.
If we instead focused solely upon developing creative prowess along with critical thinking on the basis of an unlimited arena of potential; in essence not being confined to the social construct with it's token monetary system being used to assess worth, this ridiculous box that we currently exist in would be unable to compete on any level…. These minds would propel us to a level of exponential growth that would prove every field of thought that we currently glorify, to shame….. It would be capable of demonstrating extreme abundance for every life and mind while also removing menial/manual labor from it's equation.
And we wonder why we exist in greed where people simply adorn a box that they 'possess' with more and more ridiculous trinkets and others unable to conform to it, lash out upon this society of boxes and are then discarded into an entirely different box (a cage) through an institution of correction??!?

If we were to understand the perfect balance that we exist in and celebrate it by using our cognitive ability to mirror it and enter into a perfect symbiosis with it????!!?

If we were to let go of all this static and see the beauty and brilliance that exists within us that is left unrealized, to understand that every life and mind also contains it's own; that every life and every mind is an integral part, lending it's own reflective inspiration towards that perfect embodiment and balance (fulfillment) of symbiosis….. We wouldn't stand for an expression of anything less coming from our own mouth, we wouldn't stand for a belief that wasn't capable of embodying every life and every mind.

We would be telling every life and mind how beautiful it is, how magnificent it is….. How absolutely perfect it is! What is there to deny in such an expression?
All of the absurdity of everything else would fall away, including the belief (box) that we are all sinful filthy rags!

The road to hell is paved with good intentions...

I have the sudden urge to break out into Kumbaya chants (because I couldn't find the stoned smilie).

Obviously believing a life is evil, a life is sinful, a life is lost is much more brilliant..... Anyone seen a self fulfilling prophecy lying around?

Perhaps someone could demonstrate some integrity and answer the simple question without absurd declarations like "God can't create something perfect, because only he is perfect!!!"

So, were we created innately perfect or imperfect?

RickD wrote:The road to hell is paved with good intentions...

Look around you, we exist in a populous majority of Christians!!!! Weird!
Maybe if we beat it into our heads a bit stronger that we are all sinful, something will change!