Evidence for God from Science

Philip wrote:

Philip: Scripture warns about those false teachers who infiltrate the church. Someone speaks a message in tongues - so how do YOU know if the interpreter is truly giving a message from the Lord or that the message was accurately conveyed?

K: Because they're moved by the Spirit of God.

But that's what someone CLAIMS. But unless there is a miraculous confirmation, how are those WITHOUT this supposed modern day gift to know this is of the Lord? Because the person speaking or claiming to interpret SAYS so? What if they are lying? What if the "spirit" leading them is not of the Lord? These are important questions/issues!

Well, when something they prophesise about turns up wrong, then maybe they should be stoned as a false prophet according to the Law.

Philip wrote:

Philip: To me, that opens a HUGE can of worms - meaning, one has to have faith in what someone babbling what to me sounds like gibberish; one has to have faith in the interpretation of an unknown (to me) message from an unknown (to me) source. That's putting one in position of trusting a person as opposed to the clear and written word of God.

K: The written word of God for which there seem to be as much subjective opinion.

But we KNOW what the words of God say and that they are from the Lord - that's very key. This is not the case with those speaking in tongues.

Isn't God creator of all? I would have thought that this is true of the tongue as much as our eyes and ears.
So then, why not?

More seriously though, if someone interprets the words of tongues wrong and such doesn't come to pass,
then the question is just whether we should stone them both or just the interpreter...?

Philip wrote:

Philip? And if someone asserts to have a gift of prophetic utterances, I'd want to see proof - and a track record of totally consistent PROOF that this is true.

What, the same proof that Atheists demand of Scripture which you believe is true?

No, the PROOF determination written in Scripture: In fact, Scripture reveals that this is to be a concern: "You may say to yourself, "How can we recognize a word that the LORD has not spoken?". If a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD but the thing does not take place or prove true, it is a word that the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; do not be frightened by it." (Deuteronomy 18:21-22)

Jeremiah 14:14: "Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds."

1 John 4:1: "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world."

Dang it! You left out the most important part:

• "If a prophet or someone who has dreams arises among you and proclaims a sign or wonder to you, 2 and that sign or wonder he has promised you comes about, but he says, ‘Let us follow other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us worship them,’ 3 do not listen to that prophet’s words or to that dreamer. For the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul. 4 You must follow the Lord your God and fear Him. You must keep His commands and listen to His voice; you must worship Him and remain faithful[a] to Him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death" (Deut 13:1-5)

Philip wrote:Isn't it strange that between the last OT prophet and Christ, there was nearly 400 years of silence from the Lord. But many church services are filled with supposed prophetic utterances from God - just enough to get in the last song before the second service . And unless the utterances are specific and testable, where does that leave most of the people in attendance, if not to have to totally trust that what was said was from the Lord? That's an awful lot of trust to put in another human being without some absolute ability to discern the truth.

Yes, you're right.
It isn't really a light-hearted issue to joke with.
Such removes the focus of Christ and replaces such with men and women, and a what's in it for me spiritualism.
More often then not it seems just a Christian version of divination only they're given a pedestal in a charismatic church from which to play their game.

I'm not going to prove it but if you don't believe me when I tell you I saw it with my own eyes then so be it,but I know demon possession is real and demons really do tremble at the name of Jesus and it does not show off the power of men but Jesus.Jesus cast out demons and he told us we would to and it happens today.Because of it I know there are alot of people out there who are possessed by demons just like in Jesus's day and even Catholics have an excorcist department,they just cast them out different.

abelcainsbrother wrote:I'm not going to prove it but if you don't believe me when I tell you I saw it with my own eyes then so be it,but I know demon possession is real and demons really do tremble at the name of Jesus and it does not show off the power of men but Jesus.Jesus cast out demons and he told us we would to and it happens today.Because of it I know there are alot of people out there who are possessed by demons just like in Jesus's day and even Catholics have an excorcist department,they just cast them out different.

I believe you saw something. But the eyes( and hucksters) can be deceiving. Do me a favor. Read this thread. It was started by DannyM, a former member and moderator here. The thread is a little long, but I think it shows the point I'm making with you. Pay close attention to what Danny said happened at the revival he went to. Then see how he changed, after the thread progressed. I think it's very similar to your situation. Your claim is an exorcism, and his is healings. But the similarities are eerie.

Tell me what you think.

You can believe that demon possession was just a thing of the past that happened only when Jesus was here and that all of the gifts of the Spirit and the ability to lay hands on the sick,cast out demons which all of the apostles did after the day of Pentecost,you can believe it went away after they died,but it does not say it anywhere in the new testament. I once thought like y'all do until I saw it with my own eyes and I know it was real and not fake,this girl had no control of her body when the demon manifested,yet when it died down she was normal and could talk and even pray and did,until the demon manifested again,then she had no control of her body.There is absolutely no way it was all just an act,no actor could do this what I saw,it would be impossible for somebody to do what she did all for show,impossible.

RickD wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:I'm not going to prove it but if you don't believe me when I tell you I saw it with my own eyes then so be it,but I know demon possession is real and demons really do tremble at the name of Jesus and it does not show off the power of men but Jesus.Jesus cast out demons and he told us we would to and it happens today.Because of it I know there are alot of people out there who are possessed by demons just like in Jesus's day and even Catholics have an excorcist department,they just cast them out different.

I believe you saw something. But the eyes( and hucksters) can be deceiving. Do me a favor. Read this thread. It was started by DannyM, a former member and moderator here. The thread is a little long, but I think it shows the point I'm making with you. Pay close attention to what Danny said happened at the revival he went to. Then see how he changed, after the thread progressed. I think it's very similar to your situation. Your claim is an exorcism, and his is healings. But the similarities are eerie.

Tell me what you think.

That is a bad church and nothing like I'm talking about.I don't like them kinds of church's and feel like they abuse the gifts of the Spirit but Rick we cannot ignore the bible because there are people who abuse these gifts.Are you rejecting the real gifts of the Holy Spirit because of Charlatins? I don't think we should do that.They must be used properly. I don't like the charismatic movement at all but I still believe the bible and it teaches healing,casting out demons,etc in Jesus's name. That thread mentioned the Brownsville revival and I went to it too and I liked it,however you cannot compare it to the charismatic movement at all.

It was hard for me to understand what the demon was saying because it sounded like another language but I know it was not this girls voice,it was totally different than her voice,I think it was a demon that spoke some other language but one thing I know is it was not the girls voice doing the speaking and it sounded like a demonic voice if you can try to imagine,what one would sound like it did not matter though because it still knew who Jesus was and trembled,it was terrified of Jesus,which reminded me of in the bible where Jesus was casting out demons out of the man and they begged Jesus not to torment them and to not send them to the pit,but swine instead,this demon acted afraid of Jesus too,but did not beg to go into swine though.It eventually came out of her after about 45 minutes or so and she was normal,totally set free by Jesus and this is what made it so good to see,it showed off the power of Jesus and not the ministers casting it out,they were totally relying on Jesus to cast it out and Jesus did. The girl came back to the church a few Sundays following and gave her testimony and explained how she thinks she got possessed which she said her and her friends had been playing with a ouji board,she also said she had been a lesbian.She was no longer possessed.

abelcainsbrother wrote:

1over137 wrote:Piano player and choir singing... Why was that?

It added to the spiritual warfare as the demon did not want to come out at first.It took about 45 minutes to an hour because it kept trying to trick them,it would die down and she would be normal. It as a revival I was invited to,so I watched closely because I had never seen anything like it. I was sitting toward the back when I noticed the girl getting up and going outside and the people who brought her would go out and bring her back in,it was noticeable if you were sitting toward the back,she was real fidgety too and toward the end of the sermon they brought her forward when it started,the piano player and choir singing definitely made a difffe

And how was demon casted out in the Bible?
Did it take 45 minutes? Was it so dramatic?

And how was demon casted out in the Bible?
Did it take 45 minutes? Was it so dramatic?

BINGO!!!

Demon possession happens still today, rare but still true. I have witnessed it. Sometimes it take merely a minute sometimes some prayer is necessary and it may take an hour.

1over137 wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

1over137 wrote:Piano player and choir singing... Why was that?

It added to the spiritual warfare as the demon did not want to come out at first.It took about 45 minutes to an hour because it kept trying to trick them,it would die down and she would be normal. It as a revival I was invited to,so I watched closely because I had never seen anything like it. I was sitting toward the back when I noticed the girl getting up and going outside and the people who brought her would go out and bring her back in,it was noticeable if you were sitting toward the back,she was real fidgety too and toward the end of the sermon they brought her forward when it started,the piano player and choir singing definitely made a difffe

And how was demon casted out in the Bible?
Did it take 45 minutes? Was it so dramatic?

Are you talking about when Jesus cast out demons? Yeah,it took about 45 minute or so,after about the first twenty minutes or so that's when the piano player went to the piano,she did it on her own to while the ministers were casting the demon out,then as she began to play " Nothing but the blood of Jesus" the choir went up and started singing and it effected the demon even more and it controlled her arms and made her stick her fingers in her ears while screaming out in a demonic voice,it was dramatic because it was demon possession,it will be dramatic if you ever get to see it,it took longer to cast it out because the demon would trick them and make them think it was gone,it could have been more than one demon too and they were making sure they cast all of them out.
I think that if the ministers were making it about them,like with charlatins,then I would have been more sceptical,but it was not about them at all,they were relying on Jesus and he cast them out.This was not a big megachurch either but a small church striving to grow and they had a revival under a tent and it went on for about a week,the demon getting casted out happened about on the third night of the revival.

neo-x wrote:Demon possession happens still today, rare but still true. I have witnessed it. Sometimes it take merely a minute sometimes some prayer is necessary and it may take an hour.

May I ask what you witnessed when you witnessed 1 hour long casting out?

I remember once you mentioned woman crawling the wall. Don't know how long the casting out took.

I had never saw a demon possessed person and I do think it is rare but it is definitely real and it actually validated the bible because Jesus cast out demons and so it kind of made the words in the bible about it come to life.It effected me so much that after it I wanted to know more about demon possession and I read the bible about it and I even bought some books about demonic oppression and possession and how to keep yourself free from it and even how to deal with it.

If you read this Jesus taught about demons and possession and it reveals things about them you might need to know.

Matthew 12:44-45 " When the unclean spirit if gone out of a man,he walketh through dry places,seeking rest,and findeth none.Then he saith,I will return into my house from whence I came out: and when he is come,he findeth it empty,swept,and garnished.Then goeth he,and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself,and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first,Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation."

This passage is uniquely interesting.
What does one make of this regarding the topic at hand. No emphasis... Just the reading of, just read carefully.

8The love doth never fail; and whether [there be] prophecies, they shall become useless; whether tongues, they shall cease; whether knowledge, it shall become useless; 9for in part we know, and in part we prophecy; 10and when that which is perfect may come, then that which [is] in part shall become useless. 11When I was a babe, as a babe I was speaking, as a babe I was thinking, as a babe I was reasoning, and when I have become a man, I have made useless the things of the babe; 12for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known; 13and now there doth remain faith, hope, love — these three; and the greatest of these [is] love.

1over137 wrote:

neo-x wrote:Demon possession happens still today, rare but still true. I have witnessed it. Sometimes it take merely a minute sometimes some prayer is necessary and it may take an hour.

May I ask what you witnessed when you witnessed 1 hour long casting out?

I remember once you mentioned woman crawling the wall. Don't know how long the casting out took.

I'd be interested in your response to Hana's question here too. I just read your post and found it surprising given how Naturalistic you tend to be when it comes to creation discussion.

Kurieuo wrote:

1over137 wrote:

neo-x wrote:Demon possession happens still today, rare but still true. I have witnessed it. Sometimes it take merely a minute sometimes some prayer is necessary and it may take an hour.

May I ask what you witnessed when you witnessed 1 hour long casting out?

I remember once you mentioned woman crawling the wall. Don't know how long the casting out took.

I'd be interested in your response to Hana's question here too. I just read your post and found it surprising given how Naturalistic you tend to be when it comes to creation discussion.

I have considered that often but I do think it happens, not often, or atleast not as much as sometimes people claim. However, my belief in it is for the same reason I believe in miracles.

Usually what I witnessed hasn't been as dramatic as the movies show however there are remarkable things that sometimes happen. But sometimes normal people behave like complete lunatics for a temporary period of time and then be back to their normal selves. Like Hana mentioned me telling her about a possessed woman who literally climbed a brick wall, fell down and broke her spine.

I saw a cousin of mine, literally grabbing my arm with a strength that I didn't think she could muster, talking gibberish, at one point she fell down to the ground, started slithering like a snake, started talking in a man's voice. She talked about things she could not have had known and it reminded me of the spirit Paul drove out from an oracle servant girl who used to earn for her masters in Acts.

However, once my cousin got delivered from this possession, she has never shown any evidence of such. She was fine before as well. Now I like to be the Devil's advocate and say that a lot of this can actually be explained to some degree by the naturalist occurrences, however, some parts are hard to explain and some are just entirely occurring at the same time for no particular reason.