Evidence for God from Science

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Audie wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Audie wrote:
Why not teach kids how to think?

My Dad was a scientist at the DSTO in Port Melbourne, he definitely taught me how to think critically but he also showed me that there is something much deeper than the mere physical.

Dont you suppose that most all conscientiously good religious parents have taught
their trusting children about their faith, planted it deep, early and strong, never to be lost?

Yep and that is a good thing, without faith we are all lost.

What percent, in the history of the world, do you suppose got lucky and were indoctrinated into the one true religion?
Assuming the number is greater than zero.

Depends on what you believe by one "true religion", I personally believe there will be people of all faiths in the new creation, even the Bible says there will be people there who we didn't think would be there and people not there who we thought there would be. To me religion in it's purest sense is the "true religion", everything else is a man made construction to control the people, Jesus freed us all from that, but yet again man built his churches and institutions.

Thanks, I dont know what else to say besides that. The scientist father doesnt surprise me you seem more analytical
and disinclined to the rigid "either / or" way of thinking of so many unschooled in rigorous thinking.

Oh..I wonder what you mean by the word faith.

Sorry that we aren't all inconsistently post-modern with our beliefs.

I'd much rather be follow what Christ Himself said, and be wrong, then preach a more universal salvation in kindness based upon ... and be wrong.

Rigorous thinking has nothing to do with it.

No one here is preaching universal salvation.

No, you're teaching a "type" of universal salvation.

In that one can come to Christ regardless of belief and have that accounted as "faith in Christ".

Question: what is it that makes it count as "faith in Christ"?

Kurieuo wrote: No, you're teaching a "type" of universal salvation.

In that one can come to Christ regardless of belief and have that accounted as "faith in Christ".

No, one must have faith in Christ and Christ alone, faith just has nothing to do with knowledge. I feel the Bible is pretty clear on this.

Question: what is it that makes it count as "faith in Christ"?

Faith is trust, to trust Christ, you must know him, you know Christ by doing the will of the father, so you do God's will no matter what, even if it risks your life.

Faith is trust, to trust Christ, you must know him, you know Christ by doing the will of the father, so you do God's will no matter what, even if it risks your life.

And so how do you know about and have faith in Christ if you have not first heard the Gospel? How can you say one's heart and mind has upon them what Scripture commands (faith in Jesus) if they claim another God? Or if they reject Jesus? You can't!

We must remember that God's plan in how He distributed people in time, place and history is designed to perfectly save all that are willing to be saved - all that will respond and obey when drawn and wooed. And yet we often look at these placements as somehow being a barrier to God, as if He has purposely placed barriers to belief in Jesus - and interpretation which leads people to the false notion that first hearing the Gospel and not having an understanding and faith in Jesus isn't critical to their eternal destinations. It's entirely possible that those who are never exposed to the Gospel have it deliberately withheld from them - as God knows those whom it will profit and those that knowledge of the Gospel is merely further and more comprehensive knowledge of Himself that they would only further reject.

And let's not also forget - which Romans makes unmistakably clear - that one CAN indeed reject God without having a deeper understanding of Himself and the Gospel message. As rejecting what they DO know about God (and what He has ALREADY made known to them about Himself), is enough for their condemnation. Geography, time and place are no barriers at all to how God works to save people. In fact, instead, these divine placements work in perfect harmony with God's perfect plan for all His people gathered throughout time. And we have absolutely not one reason to definitively say that anyone has been saved (post Christ) without first hearing the Gospel message. To go beyond this fact is to wander into pure speculation - which can lead to much bad theology. We should never speculate to unbelievers. We should only accurately convey what Scripture actually says. Else we may well - even if unintentionally - tragically, mislead them.

If you know Christ by doing the will of the father then I dare say no one knows Christ.

Kurieuo wrote:If you know Christ by doing the will of the father then I dare say no one knows Christ.

Well that's what Christ said Matthew 7:21-23, he said only the one who does the will of my Father, otherwise he did not know you.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

The will of the Father is to believe and listen to His Son.
John 6:40

PaulSacramento wrote:The will of the Father is to believe and listen to His Son.
John 6:40

In reference to:

D220 wrote:Faith is trust, to trust Christ, you must know him, you know Christ by doing the will of the father, so you do God's will no matter what, even if it risks your life.

is a little tautologous, right?

The real question is what is the "will of my Father" in Matt 7. I would submit that goes back to the false prophets of v. 15 and so the good tree/bad tree analogy. The fruit of the prophet is his doctrine, not his behavior. And, in fact, we see that the condemned who did not do the will of the Father had right behavior. They thought their works would save them, but it would and could not because they had not believed the gospel.

All this is very good OT theology. See Deut 13. So the will of the Father in Matt 7 is to believe what Jesus is telling them, ultimately, to believe that Jesus is the Christ. That's why the very next thing Jesus says is, "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock." Notice, by the way, the further context. In Matt 3:16, the Father testifies of the Son. In Matt 4:17, Jesus declares His message (consistent with OT theology) to repent because the Kingdom was there in Himself. In Matt 5, as Jesus begins the Sermon, the text says that He opened His mouth and began to teach (a phrase only used there). Notice that back during the temptation Jesus said that we are to live on the words that come from God's mouth.

The point? To do the will of the Father, again, is to listen to Jesus--not just to at like He wants you to act. It is to place your faith in Him, that He is the Messiah, the Christ, the Son of the Living God (and so, later, the great confession of Peter). Nothing less is the will of God--not as Jesus meant it in Matt 7.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Audie wrote:
Thanks, I dont know what else to say besides that. The scientist father doesnt surprise me you seem more analytical
and disinclined to the rigid "either / or" way of thinking of so many unschooled in rigorous thinking.

We are all fallible, I am no better than anyone else, but thanks for the compliment anyway.

Oh..I wonder what you mean by the word faith.

The way I describe faith is, I know the air exists, I cannot see the air but I can see it's effect when it blows the leaves in the trees, so I know it is real, so I have faith in it. My instincts tell me God exists, it is an innate knowledge inside me, placed by God himself, I cannot see God but I can see his effect in the world, the greatest effect by far was Jesus of Nazareth and you cannot deny the effect that this person has on people, he changes lives, hearts and minds and I find it undeniable to have faith in him and trust in his words and his way. When I look at Jesus of Nazareth, I see God and I would find it very hard to believe that a person who is honestly seeking God does not see that. When it comes to people of other faiths, if they reject Jesus and his way, then they were never saved, they had a wrong heart attitude and not a heart for God (Jesus), if they are shown the good news and accept it, they were always saved as they had a heart for God. So when I say that God will draw all people to him that desire him, he will most certainly do that, I just don't create any rules or regulations around that, it is totally in God's hands and is open to everyone who so desires.

Pointing to flaws in analogies is tiresome, but air is most tangible, That is a very different sort of faith.

Also, I recognize no instinct in myself that declares there to be a god. I do agree there is something generally inate in people tho, that thinks of gods. It seems universal among cultures to have supernatural beliefs. What that means exactly, I dont know.

With regard to changing lives..

I dont know what it is that changes people sometimes. Human psychology is harder than particle physics. If placing trust in God would consistently get results with drug and alcohol abuse, then I would think there is something real going on..probably.

As it is, the intractable problems like substance abuse and mental illness are untouched. Similar to how missing legs are not grown back tho other ills are said to be miraculously cured.

If you guys are on to something, I'd be glad to hop on as best I can. So far, I just dont see it, at all.

Audie: With regard to changing lives..

I dont know what it is that changes people sometimes. Human psychology is harder than particle physics. If placing trust in God would consistently get results with drug and alcohol abuse, then I would think there is something real going on..probably.

As it is, the intractable problems like substance abuse and mental illness are untouched.

This flies in great contradiction to the countless testimonies of people freed from addictions by turning their lives over the Christ - people that had previously repeatedly failed and remained severely under the power of their addictions. It's also why faith is a central step in many multiple-step treatment programs.

Philip wrote:

Audie: With regard to changing lives..

I dont know what it is that changes people sometimes. Human psychology is harder than particle physics. If placing trust in God would consistently get results with drug and alcohol abuse, then I would think there is something real going on..probably.

As it is, the intractable problems like substance abuse and mental illness are untouched.

This flies in great contradiction to the countless testimonies of people freed from addictions by turning their lives over the Christ - people that had previously repeatedly failed and remained severely under the power of their addictions. It's also why faith is a central step in many multiple-step treatment programs.

Anecdotal evidence is like so totally anecdotal. Give me a percent.

Mao, btw, was the worlds greatest drug counselor.

IT is import ant for us to understand that WE do NOT get to decide who is saved and who isn't or who gets into heaven and who doesn't so we really should not comment one way to another.

Do I believe that all Christians will be saved? Well....I know a few self-professed one that will have A LOT of explaining to do !
Do I believe ALL will be saved?
No, unfortunately not.
Do I believe that God wants all to be saved? Yes.
Do I believe that WHO a person outs their faith in doesn't matter as long as they are good people?
No, I do believe it matters BUT I also believe that there may be some of different faiths that God will show mercy on and they will be judged accordingly.

Look, deep down we all want God to be loving and merciful BUT also judge rightly those that openly deny Him.

John 5 has an interesting passage that I believe deals with this ( though not all agree):

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

IMO, since Christ states that those that hear Him and believe have eternal life and do NOT come into judgment, that He means just that.
Also, when He states that when the others ( those that do not believe) are judged that those who did good will be saved and those that have done evil will be judged accordingly in that regard.

So, believers will not be judged and all others will be judged according to what they have done.

Philip wrote:

Audie: ... and disinclined to the rigid "either / or" way of thinking of so many unschooled in rigorous thinking

Audie, if there is but one God - and that's what the Bible redundantly states - and if that is true, then it truly doesn't matter what one believes to the contrary, as it will not change the truth of the matter, as there is either One God, OR there is more than one god, OR there are none. But amongst those choices, somewhere, therein, is the truth of the matter. So, for arguments sake, let's say there is only one God who has communicated to mankind that He is the ONLY God and made clear that there are no others, and that His collective Word is the Bible. So is it "rigid" thinking to believe what He says? Or is it ACCURATE thinking, if that is true? And is it not rigid thinking to believe no one can know the truth of this and that the existence of any or a pantheon of gods may well exist (or not), if indeed there is but only One God? What you accuse Christians of, in their "rigid" thinking, you yourself have in categorically (yes, rigidly) rejecting any beliefs that you may well be wrong about this issue (and I say you are). In your supposed open-mindedness, you have rigidly closed off another possibility, that the God of the Bible is the only God. And this is far different from being truly open-minded. As such an open mind would realize that the existence of but One God is one of the possibilities to consider. In fact, you have previously stated that this is an unknowable thing. So you appear to contradict yourself - is this unknowable, or a rigid certainty that you can "prove" - which you've already asserted cannot be done.

It is kind of disappointing that so many times when I offer an idea, the only response is someone takes it and turns it back on me. I'm hardly without fault, but really..
why make it about me?

Of course some things are either / or. I have noticed a great tendency among some Christians to a pattern of binary thinking, of saying there are only two possibilities when I have no trouble seeing many. You dont notice that? You dont see any problem with it? You dont think a lot of your Christians are extremely rigid?

Rigid to "believe what he says"?

Not at all. All one must of needs do is first determine that "He' really said its all second hand at best . Then determine what the sayings really mean. If a consistent message came out, that would be of more interest than the low here, and, lo there that I hear.

Given satisfactory info on the above, i'd think the wise course would be to disregard all but the basic folk wisdom expressed if its not from God, or, get real rigid about it if it is! (see, binary! )

I dont think I said its unknowable. Did I? i think I said one cannot prove or disprove God. But maybe some day that will not the the case. At present, one cannot go to Mars. That does not mean its impossible to ever go.

Let me know if you are open to the possibility that all you believe about the nature of God, and the very existence of same may be 100% wrong.

Audie wrote:
Let me know if you are open to the possibility that all you believe about the nature of God, and the very existence of same may be 100% wrong.

So now you're willing to discuss metaphysics and how it pertains to God? Good. It's about time!

RickD wrote:

Audie wrote:
Let me know if you are open to the possibility that all you believe about the nature of God, and the very existence of same may be 100% wrong.

So now you're willing to discuss metaphysics and how it pertains to God? Good. It's about time!

you didnt answer the Q.