EssentialSacrifice wrote:I understand now Starhunter. I have been asking for references to your information for some time now and now that you have supplied all has become clearer. We have very little left to say. Your submission to independent references and desire to see things as you, and not necessarily as they are or were is impossible for me to accept or debate. I have learned my lesson (as you said john) and will nor entreat your conversation for both our sakes... I do think you love God and we should just leave it at that, a topic we can agree upon.
You have been very gracious in the way you respond, despite subjects and views which are not easy to read or accept.
Mallz wrote:I think you need to read Hebrews again SH. I appreciate if you don't want to continue this, though, as long as you're not pushing your views as dogma.. Personally, I see you as worshiping Elohim how you like to worship Him. And that's fine as seen on Romans 14:5-6. I still see you trapping yourself though. Why are you trapping yourself into a law that is obsolete? And not the New Covenant Jesus gave us? That's what I'm confused about, but if it's your preference, then that's OK! But you can't teach that you must worship on a specific day a week. Because it sets up stumbling blocks for believers and those that would come to Christ. It's injecting the law into grace. It's hypocritical, know what I mean? (Not saying your a hypocrite, but I am saying that's the logical conclusion to.. two of your adopted views? when held up to the teachings of Jesus)
Hebrews 8:
8 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.
3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[a] 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:
“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”[c]
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
Hebrew consistently goes over how the old testament is obsolete, fulfilled, no longer applicable and for good reason, there is a new covenant from Jesus Christ. So the ten commandments, all those OT laws are fulfilled in our mediator and High Priest Jesus Christ who gave us a covenant of Grace. Why would He make us follow a law He and we know we could never fulfill unto righteousness? Jesus is our law now, our only path to righteousness (not the OT law). He is the mediator and the definer of the law. Think of all the reasons the OT laws exist including the ten commandments. They are fulfilled and obsolete because they have been replaced with better and more inclusive commandments. Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Matthew 5 does not say the commandments of God are obsolete. "Thou shalt love the the Lord..." is the essence of the law, and not the opposite. There is nothing wrong with the law. If there is, please point it out.
The old covenant was not the law, it was the agreement the people had with God. But they never kept their side of the bargain, because they were to obey God, but they did not, because they did not exercise faith in God like Abram, they went for other devices, not the law, they broke it all the time. If they had faith in God, they would have loved God and therefor fulfilled the law. Jesus fulfilled the law by keeping it by faith - He never sinned.
The new covenant is about faith which works.
If you want to abolish the ten commandments which Jesus gave to Moses, then you would have to prove from scripture that the commandments of Christ are not the law of Moses.
Hebrews says the opposite of what you are suggesting.
It's interesting you posted Matthew 5 SH. Reading it again actually brought forth something personal to me I needed an answer to (completely unrelated to the topic), so thank you for helping with that. You gotta love the Holy Spirit ^_^
How are the laws not a part of the Old Covenant?
It's weird. It's like we are aligned so much here, but so off with our conclusions. We think Hebrews is saying the opposite things? I don't understand how it is saying the conclusion of your position and not mine. I'm interested in dissecting this..
I can't offer anything more than this right now but will later today when I wake up. Any response so far is welcomed!
God has always wanted to make a covenant based on faith, as He did with Abram.
Abram believed God so it was accounted as righteousness to him. That's the covenant that God wanted to have with Israel, but it failed, so far as the nation is concerned because they did not enter into His rest, because of unbelief.
Paul says in Hebrews that the gospel was preached unto them - the Israelites, as well as to us. The condition of a relationship with God has always been faith. Hebrews 11 tells us a history of all those who were examples of the faithful.
So some believed God and were accounted as righteous, but the majority, did not for most of the time.
Belief and trust in God produces the works of God on the believers heart and mind, so that new actions follow in the life and character. A life of obedience to God - which includes the commandments of God - which require love to God and love to fellow man.
When people claim to keep the law, without love and faith, their works are unacceptable to God.
The only works God approves are those of faith, and not of works.
In speaking about the old covenant, Paul was not talking about the ten commandments, which were given before Israel went into a covenant with God. But the old covenant started with the building of the sanctuary or temple, in which there were sacrifices etc. These could not help the believer, as they were only symbolic of the promised Lamb of God, but faith in that future Lamb, would be a saving faith.
So when the sanctuary service ended, it was symbolic of the inadequate faith of Israel, which had to be done away with.
Jesus also talks about a new commandment, which John explains is the old commandment in a new light.
The law of God is no threat to the believer in Christ, whether an ancient Jew or a modern Christian.
The law of God is only a threat to those who would be saved by the merit of their own works or beliefs in their own faith.
But Jesus said "If you love me, keep my commandments."
If Israel had faith in God they would have automatically kept the law, but in their darkened minds they made the Sabbath a burden, and the society oppressive.
What impresses me, Mallz, is the patience of the Mods and members of this forum, including yours, and I just wanted to add that in the past I had a fairly knuckled approach to subjects, and in this case about the law, no one's life or person is condemned because they don't understand or accept or keep the law, because matters of faith have to do with walking with God at any stage and any time, with whatever knowledge, and learning, not just academically but with conviction.
It is by God's patience and grace that we are saved. So if what I am saying is true or not, then the Lord will make it clear in His time to every individual in Christ. But we are accepted in Christ today.
As this thread was drifting off topic, I split the OSAS posts to this new thread. Please continue OSAS discussions here: Revisiting OSAS
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
1over137 wrote:Should I now go googling the standing ovation smiley or read my Bible?
Edit: that Leviticus book. Going to google the smiley now... One chapter enough for now.
Hana,
Please stop going off topic!
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Seventh Day Adventists, as I have learned recently, like churches before them, such as the Lutherans and Baptists, accumulated knowledge of the different doctrines of truth in the Bible, by studying it in groups and receiving light by the ministry of those whom God had given special light.
The reformation churches grew in strength learning from the past, from others and adding it to their faith. As the apostles advised "add knowledge to your faith."
But as they became substantial organisations, things changed, and they segregated by canonizing their beliefs, leaving behind the humility of learning more and settling in the world.
For a while Christendom saw many divisions, which would keep dividing into hundreds of denominations.
They had ceased to be united on searching the truth in the Bible and became complacent and eventually so disempowered, that they united for strength. A unity which would see their distinct truths abandoned and substituted with dead formalism and a false gospel as well?
But the Bible prophesied that there would be a remnant of the true Christian church. Revelation 12:17.
The last church has not only accumulated all the truth from the reformation, but is in line with all the doctrines of the apostles.
I drove past a church called the Apostolic Church, and I thought, yes, a remnant, are these the remnant? No, they did not practice half of the apostolic faith. But it got me thinking, the last church in the Bible is the same as the first.
Starhunter wrote:Seventh Day Adventists, as I have learned recently, like churches before them, such as the Lutherans and Baptists, accumulated knowledge of the different doctrines of truth in the Bible, by studying it in groups and receiving light by the ministry of those whom God had given special light.
The reformation churches grew in strength learning from the past, from others and adding it to their faith. As the apostles advised "add knowledge to your faith."
But as they became substantial organisations, things changed, and they segregated by canonizing their beliefs, leaving behind the humility of learning more and settling in the world.
For a while Christendom saw many divisions, which would keep dividing into hundreds of denominations.
They had ceased to be united on searching the truth in the Bible and became complacent and eventually so disempowered, that they united for strength. A unity which would see their distinct truths abandoned and substituted with dead formalism and a false gospel as well?
But the Bible prophesied that there would be a remnant of the true Christian church. Revelation 12:17.
The last church has not only accumulated all the truth from the reformation, but is in line with all the doctrines of the apostles.
I drove past a church called the Apostolic Church, and I thought, yes, a remnant, are these the remnant? No, they did not practice half of the apostolic faith. But it got me thinking, the last church in the Bible is the same as the first.
My personal opinion is that these are groups of people outside of the establish modern church order. In other words, the Lord puts groups of people to carry out what he wants done in a certain area. Some just might be home groups. Such folks, well, are not really welcomed in the modern church world due their sincerity and loyalty to the Lord because they live the walk and live out their talk. In my opinion these are the folks mentioned in Revelation 3:7-13 and are not welcomed in any real degree in established churches. Can't explain it other than the Lord putting folks of like mind together. I meet a few and part of a few of these. Yes, there are even established churches that fit this pattern but they are not like their denominations at all because they fit the standards mentioned in Rev 3:7-13.
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
I imagine that things are not much different than the days of the apostles for many Christians today. I hear quite a bit about home church groups developing in from different denominations.
