Evidence for God from Science

Well discussions go both ways, atheist or not...

edwardmurphy wrote:

zacchaeus wrote:Yeah and I'm just trying to play catch but she refuses to throw the ball back... I thought this was a scrimmage not a real game. First Ed now her.

I can't speak for Audie, but I'm not interested in entertaining your line of questioning because it's just a bunch of hyperbole aimed at eliciting an emotional response. Besides that, you don't seem to understand atheism.

For example, what would I do at the bedside of my dying child if I don't believe in god? First off, as a father of a baby and a toddler I'd be sorely tempted to break your jaw if you were to ask me that in person. It's beyond obnoxious. Here, as Horator once said, it was tough to keep it g-rated so I just withheld comment.

Second, as horrible as that situation would be, it's not a reason to believe that your god exists. You're trying to frighten me and then offer a solution to ease my fear. If that's the kind of tactic you use to steer people toward your god you should really shut your pie hole and stop evangelizing. You're doing more harm to your cause than good. You're positioning yourself as a representative of your faith, and frankly, you're making it look pathetic.

Is that a sufficiently clear explanation for my disinclination to engage with you?

Regarding other questions and comments from other people, they're good questions and I'll get to them when I have a bit more time. I haven't bowed out of the conversation, I'm just busy.

Well Ed very revealing post about yourself here...

Not sure how your Lutheran background influenced your faith that folks are trying to frighten you to believe in God... Unless austereness of that order was very pronounced in your neck of the woods when growing up.

Now let's up this notch:

Say the Child was Adolf Hitler - what then - would you morn that child's death and use it to convict God of evil - a God you don't believe in as existing or say God is unjust for allowing Hitler to live. I find it odd that you do believe God exisits enough to go to such great lengths to attempt to disprove him, puzzling

The answer to the questions you pose comes back to this: Why has God let you live as well as Audie?

In that you might discover the answer...

Of course you'll come back and claim God has nothing to do with your existence. If that is the case, then whatever you say or argue or do, absolutely, has no value whatsoever and no merit at all. All is pure vanity then.

I heard the talking points before:

1-Militant Atheism values life because it is rare

2 -Since atheist do, they hold the superior hand

3-God and Christianity does not value life (evidence by diseased children, etc and etc et all etc)

4-Militant Atheism seeks to eradicate Christianity and that is noble good (though temporary and not lasting) therefore the world will be a better place and all people will get along splendidly

5-this list goes on and on...

Responses:

++So if militant atheist value life because it is rare, then why do you as an atheist not value those who believe in Jesus as the means of saving faith? Is not our life just as rare as yours? Why cannot you value ours then?

++How can bias and stereotyping Christians to buttress militant atheist ideas actually be a superior hand?

++Militant atheist value the life of children so do we and so does God. How do people mess up the world and author diseases? Where did medical knowledge come and develop to treat illnesses? Did God really mess things up or did humanity?

Therefore, let's look at the world from the militant atheist perspective: That there is No God.

People do evil and bad things to each other. People's actions cause diseases and genetic defects. People abuse each other, lie steal, cheat, murder relationships, austere and cold and distant from each other - How then is that good?

Humanity made the child sick and diseased and suffer - therefore what does that say about humanity?

Atheism is an indictment against humanity not God...

And by faith militant atheist hold true to this defend indictment against humanity as the morally superior position all must take! Then you die and off into nothingness you go and get away with all the crimes of humanity!

To heck with militant atheist talking points, I'll just turn them back on the militant atheist. So what...

++Once Christianity is eradicated or relegated to the realm of mental illness then militant atheist can only blame humanity for all ills of the world and nothing they can do will or can fix it, no matter how hard they try. Human inhumanity is caused by human beings.

Yes, God should have wiped out humanity in the beginning and we wouldn't be having this conversation because it is we who made a mess of things. Yet, he allowed us to exist and make the messes and spread the diseases and we put God on trial for attempting to reason with human beings to stop it and teach us how to stop this craziness.

Well, we are here, we do exist, we have another chance, don't blow it and for that allowing another chance folks still want to nail Jesus and goodness to a cross, after the trial and after testimonies of false witnesses, and all the betrayal, hubris, we cause.... we still want to nail Jesus to death. Wow! what and indictment against humanity that is! And to think Militant Atheism still seeks that...nailing...

Of course, I also know the comes back of militant atheist which will be one of ridicule, mocking, as well as accusing me of hyperbole but what of theirs?

As I pointed out to you Ed such ridicule and mocking tones - just as you do not like this toward you, Christians do not like the same toward us either.

Jesus went thru the mocking and ridicule too so do we...

Have a nice day...
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One of the reasons that even when I didn't believe in God per say, I was never a strong atheist and was, at best, agnostic, was that deep down I saw the atheistic world view as self-defeating and unreasonable.
The emotional problem of pain and evil are addressed by stating that humans are, by nature, not very good and that there really isn't any reason to believe in right and wrong and there isn't any real reason to believe that we will get better.
Sure there are many very moral and superbe atheists, BUT to what standard ARE they moral and to what standard do we hold them as such? based on what?
We have a notion of right and wrong, good and bad based on a core religious belief that such things DO exist ( that there IS A right and wrong) and no, evolutionary biology has NOT answered that question, much to Sam Harris' shagrin.

It is very easy to "kill god" and "eliminate religion" when we can TRY to keep all the good that has come from belief in God.
I just want to point out that every nation that has done that has not done very well ( case in point the former USSR and it's nations and China).

Can people BE moral and just without God?
Yes.
But note that what they have to do to do this is do "salad bar" reasoning:
They take what they want and need and discard the rest.

It MAY work for a bit but, as history shows us, eventually it falls apart.

Chagrin is spelled with a "c".

RickD wrote:Chagrin is spelled with a "c".

Im not sure what a "superbe" atheist is but should it not have a double e, and a hyphen?

RickD wrote:Chagrin is spelled with a "c".

Don't blame me, damn auto-correct !

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:Chagrin is spelled with a "c".

Don't blame me, damn auto-correct !

Aha! The dreaded Canadian autocorrect. It adds u's and "eh" to the end of sentences.

"Hey Hoser, what colour did you paint the igloo, eh?

Is it true that a Canadian who wants to share a drink will say,
"Let's be havin' a mug up, eh?"

B. W. wrote:Well Ed very revealing post about yourself here...

Not sure how your Lutheran background influenced your faith that folks are trying to frighten you to believe in God... Unless austereness of that order was very pronounced in your neck of the woods when growing up.

Again, you're reading too much into what I said. When I said I was baptized Lutheran I mean that my mom told me that I when I was a baby I was baptized at a Lutheran church. I don't recall the experience. I don't think the Second Congregational was Lutheran, although I honestly don't recall. I don't remember austerity being a major feature at the church in Maine, but it's not like I was paying attention anyway. Church didn't make much of an impression one way or the other.

B. W. wrote:Now let's up this notch:

Say the Child was Adolf Hitler - what then - would you morn that child's death and use it to convict God of evil - a God you don't believe in as existing or say God is unjust for allowing Hitler to live. I find it odd that you do believe God exisits enough to go to such great lengths to attempt to disprove him, puzzling

This is another one of those conversations between you and the strawman you built to represent what you assume is my position. Since I'm not actually a participant I'm just going to sit back and see where you wind up.

B. W. wrote:The answer to the questions you pose comes back to this: Why has God let you live as well as Audie?

In that you might discover the answer...

Of course you'll come back and claim God has nothing to do with your existence. If that is the case, then whatever you say or argue or do, absolutely, has no value whatsoever and no merit at all. All is pure vanity then.

You completely lost me. I have literally no idea what you're talking about. I've never met Audie, I have no idea how well she lives.

Are you asking me why god allows Audie and me to live? If so then you obviously already know my response. As you know, I'M AN ATHEIST. As you're no doubt aware, god is not a factor in my worldview. As you cannot possibly have missed, I do not believe that I was created by your god or any other god. The same goes for you, and Audie, and everyone else in the history of the world.

B. W. wrote:I heard the talking points before:

1-Militant Atheism values life because it is rare

2 -Since atheist do, they hold the superior hand

3-God and Christianity does not value life (evidence by diseased children, etc and etc et all etc)

4-Militant Atheism seeks to eradicate Christianity and that is noble good (though temporary and not lasting) therefore the world will be a better place and all people will get along splendidly

5-this list goes on and on...

You should take all that up with whoever said it. It wasn't me.

B. W. wrote:Responses:

++So if militant atheist value life because it is rare, then why do you as an atheist not value those who believe in Jesus as the means of saving faith? Is not our life just as rare as yours? Why cannot you value ours then?

So true. Just yesterday I was walking by the river and this guy floated by. He looked like he was drowning so I asked him what religion he was. He said he was an Anabaptist. I wasn't sure if he was joking or what, so I googled the word. It turns out that he was actually a Christian, so I explained that I wasn't going to help him because Christians statistically aren't nearly as rare as atheists. He took a while drowning, so I got bored and pelted him with some rocks to help him along. I mean why not, right? It's not like morality exists without the god, y'know? Ahh, good times...

B. W. wrote:++How can bias and stereotyping Christians to buttress militant atheist ideas actually be a superior hand?

Gambling is a sin so Christians don't know poker so atheists always have the better hand. Also, Dungeons and Dragons.

B. W. wrote:++Militant atheist value the life of children so do we and so does God. I left the part that I agree with. How do people mess up the world and author diseases? I'm not sure what you mean. Where did medical knowledge come and develop to treat illnesses? Research and experimentation. Did God really mess things up or did humanity? God doesn't exist, so everything wrong with humanity is entirely humanity's fault.

B. W. wrote:Therefore, let's look at the world from the militant atheist perspective: That there is No God.

I don't think you can pull that off, but I'm interested in seeing what you come up with.

B. W. wrote:People do evil and bad things to each other. People's actions cause diseases and genetic defects. People abuse each other, lie steal, cheat, murder relationships, austere and cold and distant from each other - How then is that good?

Who said that was good? And since when is that all people do?

B. W. wrote:Humanity made the child sick and diseased and suffer - therefore what does that say about humanity?

Possibly. It's also possible that the kid got sick for completely natural reasons. Hopefully humanity also managed to help the kid get better.

B. W. wrote:Atheism is an indictment against humanity not God...

I don't think it's an indictment against either. I don't indict things that I don't think exist. I indict religion from time to time, but that's an indictment against humanity, not god.

B. W. wrote:And by faith militant atheist hold true to this defend indictment against humanity as the morally superior position all must take! Then you die and off into nothingness you go and get away with all the crimes of humanity!

Militant atheists must be pretty gloomy.

B. W. wrote:To heck with militant atheist talking points, I'll just turn them back on the militant atheist. So what...

I thought that was what you were just doing. Are you going to do it again?

B. W. wrote:++Once Christianity is eradicated or relegated to the realm of mental illness then militant atheist can only blame humanity for all ills of the world and nothing they can do will or can fix it, no matter how hard they try. Human inhumanity is caused by human beings.

I'm unaware of any effort being made to eradicate Christianity. I know there's a pretty substantial effort being made to try and convince Christians that the occasional letter from the FFRF is an existential threat to their religion, but that's obviously ridiculous. Christianity isn't going to be eradicated any time soon, if ever. More likely it will just keep on chugging along and adapting to the times while a small but vocal minority fumes and frets about how everything is different than it used to be.

B. W. wrote:Yes, God should have wiped out humanity in the beginning and we wouldn't be having this conversation because it is we who made a mess of things. Yet, he allowed us to exist and make the messes and spread the diseases and we put God on trial for attempting to reason with human beings to stop it and teach us how to stop this craziness.

Who's this "we?" It's not atheists, because we don't believe in god. This is the kind of comment that makes me question whether you truly understand the concept. You say that you do, but then you start talking about how atheists blame god for this or hate god for that. If they do then they're not atheists. Atheists might hate religion but they don't hate god.

B. W. wrote:Well, we are here, we do exist, we have another chance, don't blow it and for that allowing another chance folks still want to nail Jesus and goodness to a cross, after the trial and after testimonies of false witnesses, and all the betrayal, hubris, we cause.... we still want to nail Jesus to death. Wow! what and indictment against humanity that is! And to think Militant Atheism still seeks that...nailing...

Did you get hit in the head with a coconut just before you wrote that, because you definitely come across as concussed.

B. W. wrote:Of course, I also know the comes back of militant atheist which will be one of ridicule, mocking, as well as accusing me of hyperbole but what of theirs?

I have no idea what "Militant Atheist" will make of your comments. I've never met him/her/them. It's true that I often say that you're being hyperbolic, but that's just because you're often being hyperbolic. If you ask around I'm sure you'll find plenty of devout Christians who find your writing style hyperbolic. Are you not aware of that? When I use hyperbole it's deliberate.

B. W. wrote:As I pointed out to you Ed such ridicule and mocking tones - just as you do not like this toward you, Christians do not like the same toward us either.

The conversation isn't between me and Christianity, it's between me an a bunch of Christians. There's a difference. If you look through my posts you'll notice that I interact differently with different people. For example, I tend to make fun of you for being hyperbolic and ridiculous. B.W., I don't do that because you're Christian, I do it because the things that you write are hyperbolic and ridiculous. I find ACB equally hyperbolic and ridiculous, but I also find him to be unfailingly sincere. That's why I tend to make fun of you but not of him. I don't make fun of Rick, or FL, or Nessa, or Storyteller, or a bunch of other people for being hyperbolic because they're not. That doesn't mean that I never take a shot at any of them for anything, but when I do it's not the same shot I'd take at you.

I've actually managed to find common ground about something with just about everyone here. I don't agree with Rick's religious or political views, but I appreciate his sense of humor. I don't agree with FL's religious views, but I appreciate the clarity with which he sees American politics. I suspect that you're maybe half a bubble off plumb, and we disagree about everything that I can think of, but I appreciated the concern that you showed when I mentioned that our difficult pregnancy. I find ACB equally ridiculous, but I recognize and appreciate his sincerity. ES and I don't see eye to eye on much of anything, but I share his appreciation of Mr. Rogers Neighborhood. It ain't much, but it's something.

My point is that I'm a person talking to other people, not the physical embodiment of "Militant Atheism" writing an open letter to the Christian world.

B. W. wrote:Jesus went thru the mocking and ridicule too so do we...

See? There it is. I've never mocked anyone simply for being Christian. I don't use the word "Christian" as a pejorative. Can you say the same about the words "socialist," "liberal,", "progressive," or "atheist?" No. No, you can't. The fact that you seem to have placed me in the role of persecutor of the righteous is silly and that, combined with your ever-present double-standard, will rightly earn you some mockery. You're being ridiculous.

Besides, everybody gets mocked and ridiculed from time to time. Should we all act like martyrs, too?

B. W. wrote:Have a nice day...

It's night, but I appreciate the sentiment. It'll be a good one if the girls sleep. If history is any guide, they won't.

I see I am getting mentioned so why not join in.
The one sided conversation you refer to is much
as with Zach, who did not need me, supplying as he
did "my" beliefs or arguments, then ssvaging them.

Things like the 1-2-3 of "militant atheists" is more of the same.
Stupid positions held by nobody present, trotted out and
mowed down with as with tommy-gun.

It hss nothing to do with thee, or me. Just get it started
like with one of those telemarket calls, and when they've
stsrted the spiel, set the phone down and walk away.

Audie wrote:I see I am getting mentioned so why not join in.
The one sided conversation you refer to is much
as with Zach, who did not need me, supplying as he
did "my" beliefs or arguments, then ssvaging them.

Things like the 1-2-3 of "militant atheists" is more of the same.
Stupid positions held by nobody present, trotted out and
mowed down with as with tommy-gun.

It hss nothing to do with thee, or me. Just get it started
like with one of those telemarket calls, and when they've
stsrted the spiel, set the phone down and walk away.

First a krinkov, and now a tommy-gun.
Don't mess with Audie.

Kurieuo wrote:

Audie wrote:I see I am getting mentioned so why not join in.
The one sided conversation you refer to is much
as with Zach, who did not need me, supplying as he
did "my" beliefs or arguments, then ssvaging them.

Things like the 1-2-3 of "militant atheists" is more of the same.
Stupid positions held by nobody present, trotted out and
mowed down with as with tommy-gun.

It hss nothing to do with thee, or me. Just get it started
like with one of those telemarket calls, and when they've
stsrted the spiel, set the phone down and walk away.

First a krinkov, and now a tommy-gun.
Don't mess with Audie.

Gun? I dont have no gun. I DONT NERD NE STINKING GUN!!!

Audie: Gun? I don't have no gun. I DONT NERD NE STINKING GUN!!!

Yeah, giving Audie a gun is like duct taping a hand grenade to the tip of an atom bomb! So UNNECESSARY!



OK, Audie, show us you've got a sense of humor - as I know that you do!

And so she DOES!!!

Audie,

Lay out what it is you believe, your worldview... Why, how'd you draw your conclusions?