Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:46 am
Yes! as opposed to an objective claim. Again; why does such a claim sound extraordinary to you?
Ken
Ken
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
Yes! as opposed to an objective claim. Again; why does such a claim sound extraordinary to you?
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:33 pm
So, Would you agree, going over all that was discussed here:
Things that come into being require something to cause them or act upon them to come into being?
What do you mean by “come into being”? Do you mean created from nothing? Because that would go against the 1st law of Thermodynamics which says nothing is neither created nor destroyed; it only changes forms. If you mean something else; please explain.The first Law refers to CLOSED systems only, of course.
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:33 pm
Things that move/change from on state to another, require something outside themselves to act on them to do so?You mean like when energy converts to matter, or matter converts to energy? I don’t think it is acting outside of itself when this happens.What causes energy to convert to matter ? or matter into energy? or water to evaporate ?
Do those things happen without outside influence?
When energy is converted to matter ( Far more difficult then the reverse of course), a super collider needs to be used and electrons are collided with a high-energy laser ( theoretically of course).
In short, something would have to cause the collision.
Agreed?
Because the correct answers are most often the simplest ones, not the extraordinary kind. Did you not read further down my reply to morny? Are you not familiar with the rule of parsimony? Or do you just pick and choose your rules where they suit you?Kenny wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:46 amYes! as opposed to an objective claim. Again; why does such a claim sound extraordinary to you?
Ken
Ken, we pray because God tells us to and because He says He listens, hears and answer's prayers. So, to begin with, our effective prayers line up with His will - which we can't often know ahead of time. However, we do know there are certain things God ALWAYS wants of us. So sincere prayers desiring to know God and to answer any doubts they might have about His existence or Who Jesus is - these are prayers He will always honor - but His answers may not be instant - or they can play out over time, or in unexpected ways. And God tells us to pray humbly. He will not hear our prayers if we are determined to remain in disobedience while practicing evil things - though one sincerely praying to escape these things and desiring Him, God will answer and help them. So God ties our prayers to our obedience - are we living as He instructs us, as we pray? He also ties the effectiveness of our prayers to having faith that He has the ability to answer our prayers.Ken: So why pray? (not a thank-you type prayer, but a request type prayer
God also foreknows what we will pray for and when, and so He factors our prayers into what He has forever known - the content of our prayers and whether or not they match up with His perfect will in a given circumstance, or in the comprehensive results that impact so many others as well. And where our prayers match up with His will and how He will answer that prayer He's always known BOTH things. And so, as He wants us to pray - as it is a connecting to God in spirit and hope - He often works through our prayers. But we might pray for something outside of His will - like, a mother that isn't healed and dies, etc. Does that outcome mean we shouldn't pray? NO! Does it mean we were foolish to pray? No! Does it mean God doesn't care about one's suffering mother? NO! Does it mean that what we prayed wasn't answered with the mother and others' best interests - NO! But how could we ever know that?Ken: If I want “X” to happen (“X” could be my sick mother getting past her illness, a troubled person getting past his struggles, a lost person finding his way, etc. etc.) and I pray to God for help, if we assume God knows everything then logic will tell us that God has already decided if “X” is going to take place or not before we decided to pray; do you agree?
Again, God's will is one with His perfect foreknowledge of ALL things. It's not as if He is like a human that decides what He is going to do after the fact of our prayer, subsequent / new information, or whatever else. he's always know all of the factors, His will, our prayers, our hearts and minds, His will, and His future actions in response - and He knows these things all at once and has always / forever known them. And yet, His response to our prayers play out in real time - because we live in real time.Ken: ...if God has decided to allow “X” to happen before I even prayed for it, my prayer is useless. Do you agree? So why pray?
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:33 pm
So, Would you agree, going over all that was discussed here:
Things that come into being require something to cause them or act upon them to come into being?
What do you mean by “come into being”? Do you mean created from nothing? Because that would go against the 1st law of Thermodynamics which says nothing is neither created nor destroyed; it only changes forms. If you mean something else; please explain.
According to my understanding, an open system Universe would mean there is something outside the Universe acting upon it, where as a closed system Universe would mean there is nothing outside the Universe to act upon it.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:52 amThe first Law refers to CLOSED systems only, of course.
Unless they’ve always existed!PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:52 amWhat I mean is that, somethings do not exist until they come into being, correct?
I don’t know; can you give an example of this happening outside of your theistic beliefs?PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:52 amDo you agree that something cause things that do not exist to come into being?
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:52 am Things that move/change from on state to another, require something outside themselves to act on them to do so?
You mean like when energy converts to matter, or matter converts to energy? I don’t think it is acting outside of itself when this happens.
Perhaps I’ve misunderstood you. When you said acting outside of themselves, I thought you meant something outside the material world. If you meant “X” acting upon “Y” with them both being material; that would make sense to me.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:52 amWhat causes energy to convert to matter ? or matter into energy? or water to evaporate ?
Do those things happen without outside influence?
When energy is converted to matter ( Far more difficult then the reverse of course), a super collider needs to be used and electrons are collided with a high-energy laser ( theoretically of course).
In short, something would have to cause the collision.
Agreed?
First of all; Occam’s Razor or the Rule of Parsimony (which ever you wish to call it) is not an actual scientific principle, or rule of logic, it’s just a tool to help decide which of two or more explanations is more likely to be the correct one; it’s not something written in stone.Byblos wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:53 amBecause the correct answers are most often the simplest ones, not the extraordinary kind. Did you not read further down my reply to morny? Are you not familiar with the rule of parsimony? Or do you just pick and choose your rules where they suit you?
Ahh so if I understand you correctly; God knows all including if you were going to pray for “X” or not, and will make his decision based upon your decision to pray before you even decided to do it or not; thus if you decide to pray for “X” he would have chosen to answer your prayer before you even prayed based on his foreknowledge. Is this correct?Philip wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:19 amKen, we pray because God tells us to and because He says He listens, hears and answer's prayers. So, to begin with, our effective prayers line up with His will - which we can't often know ahead of time. However, we do know there are certain things God ALWAYS wants of us. So sincere prayers desiring to know God and to answer any doubts they might have about His existence or Who Jesus is - these are prayers He will always honor - but His answers may not be instant - or they can play out over time, or in unexpected ways. And God tells us to pray humbly. He will not hear our prayers if we are determined to remain in disobedience while practicing evil things - though one sincerely praying to escape these things and desiring Him, God will answer and help them. So God ties our prayers to our obedience - are we living as He instructs us, as we pray? He also ties the effectiveness of our prayers to having faith that He has the ability to answer our prayers.Ken: So why pray? (not a thank-you type prayer, but a request type prayer
God also foreknows what we will pray for and when, and so He factors our prayers into what He has forever known - the content of our prayers and whether or not they match up with His perfect will in a given circumstance, or in the comprehensive results that impact so many others as well. And where our prayers match up with His will and how He will answer that prayer He's always known BOTH things. And so, as He wants us to pray - as it is a connecting to God in spirit and hope - He often works through our prayers. But we might pray for something outside of His will - like, a mother that isn't healed and dies, etc. Does that outcome mean we shouldn't pray? NO! Does it mean we were foolish to pray? No! Does it mean God doesn't care about one's suffering mother? NO! Does it mean that what we prayed wasn't answered with the mother and others' best interests - NO! But how could we ever know that?Ken: If I want “X” to happen (“X” could be my sick mother getting past her illness, a troubled person getting past his struggles, a lost person finding his way, etc. etc.) and I pray to God for help, if we assume God knows everything then logic will tell us that God has already decided if “X” is going to take place or not before we decided to pray; do you agree?
Note, as also fully human, Jesus prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane: " “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” Did God not answer that prayer's ultimate desire (that God the Father's (and the Son's and Holy Spirit's) ULTIMATE will be done)? Absolutely! Did allowing and desiring Jesus still yet suffer and die mean God didn't love Him? Course not - as Jesus was equally God. But was the ultimate outcome of Jesus going through His unimaginable suffering far better than being delivered from His fate? Absolutely! So, God measures ultimate outcomes and eternal purposes, as to how He answers prayers.
Again, God's will is one with His perfect foreknowledge of ALL things. It's not as if He is like a human that decides what He is going to do after the fact of our prayer, subsequent / new information, or whatever else. he's always know all of the factors, His will, our prayers, our hearts and minds, His will, and His future actions in response - and He knows these things all at once and has always / forever known them. And yet, His response to our prayers play out in real time - because we live in real time.Ken: ...if God has decided to allow “X” to happen before I even prayed for it, my prayer is useless. Do you agree? So why pray?
Not sure how relevant parsimony or Occam's Razor are here. The main issue is how well the evidence supports the explanation, not how simple the explanation is.Byblos wrote: In fact, I would venture an educated guess that in most cases, the exact opposite is claimed, i.e. the law of parsimony (Occam's razor) where simpler solutions are more likely to be correct even for complex problems.
No. Because the claim itself is simply a clever phrasing for an observation that people have understood for thousands of years.Byblos wrote: Says who? Just because it suits you to proclaim it ordinary [...]?
You may be misinterpreting my point. The mere claim of God's existence (or many aspects of theism) is not extraordinary, because the claim is untestable. So science and I don't care.Byblos wrote: But for some reason, when it comes to the subject of theism in general and God in particular, all of a sudden parsimony be damned, it's extraordinary evidence you seek.
You volunteered several. The 1st one I checked had invalidating methodological and statistical flaws.Philip wrote: The challenge with validating prayer for a scientific study, is that next to none have been done.
Designing such a study is not difficult. Make an unambiguous and measurable claim. Set up a controlled, randomized, double-blind experiment. Follow well-established, reasoned methodological and statistical principles. Publish a positive result. Collect the Nobel Prize.Philip wrote: [...] one could never design a study that would allow an accurate measure of outcomes - not per the scientific method, anyway
I agree that Christians believe this. So why hasn't anyone collected the Nobel Prize?Philip wrote: But every Christian can confirm that God has responded to some impassioned prayer, and that they realize this to be the case.
Kenny wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:48 pmPaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:33 pm
So, Would you agree, going over all that was discussed here:
Things that come into being require something to cause them or act upon them to come into being?What do you mean by “come into being”? Do you mean created from nothing? Because that would go against the 1st law of Thermodynamics which says nothing is neither created nor destroyed; it only changes forms. If you mean something else; please explain.According to my understanding, an open system Universe would mean there is something outside the Universe acting upon it, where as a closed system Universe would mean there is nothing outside the Universe to act upon it.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:52 amThe first Law refers to CLOSED systems only, of course.
Obviously the observable Universe would be considered open because there is much about the Universe we cannot observe; but the entire Universe, is considered all that exists. I’ve always assumed this would be a closed system, because if it is all that exists, by definition there can be nothing outside of it acting upon it; IOW it can’t be “A” and “Not A” at the same time.Unless they’ve always existed!PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:52 amWhat I mean is that, somethings do not exist until they come into being, correct?I don’t know; can you give an example of this happening outside of your theistic beliefs?PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:52 amDo you agree that something cause things that do not exist to come into being?PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:52 am Things that move/change from on state to another, require something outside themselves to act on them to do so?You mean like when energy converts to matter, or matter converts to energy? I don’t think it is acting outside of itself when this happens.Perhaps I’ve misunderstood you. When you said acting outside of themselves, I thought you meant something outside the material world. If you meant “X” acting upon “Y” with them both being material; that would make sense to me.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:52 amWhat causes energy to convert to matter ? or matter into energy? or water to evaporate ?
Do those things happen without outside influence?
When energy is converted to matter ( Far more difficult then the reverse of course), a super collider needs to be used and electrons are collided with a high-energy laser ( theoretically of course).
In short, something would have to cause the collision.
Agreed?
According to my understanding, an open system Universe would mean there is something outside the Universe acting upon it, where as a closed system Universe would mean there is nothing outside the Universe to act upon it.If the universe is a closed system, how did it expand ??
Obviously the observable Universe would be considered open because there is much about the Universe we cannot observe; but the entire Universe, is considered all that exists. I’ve always assumed this would be a closed system, because if it is all that exists, by definition there can be nothing outside of it acting upon it; IOW it can’t be “A” and “Not A” at the same time.
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:52 pmLife.
Do you agree that something cause things that do not exist to come into being?
I don’t know; can you give an example of this happening outside of your theistic beliefs?
Perhaps I’ve misunderstood you. When you said acting outside of themselves, I thought you meant something outside the material world. If you meant “X” acting upon “Y” with them both being material; that would make sense to me.Is energy material ?
Philip: one could never design a study that would allow an accurate measure of outcomes - not per the scientific method, anyway
First place, I referenced a study for consideration that Rich Deem had posted on G&S. I don't know all the details.Morny: Designing such a study is not difficult. Make an unambiguous and measurable claim. Set up a controlled, randomized, double-blind experiment. Follow well-established, reasoned methodological and statistical principles. Publish a positive result. Collect the Nobel Prize.
A closed system is not defined as something restricted from expansion; it’s defined as a system that has nothing outside it to act upon it.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:42 amIf the universe is a closed system, how did it expand ??
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:52 pm
Do you agree that something cause things that do not exist to come into being?
I don’t know; can you give an example of this happening outside of your theistic beliefs?
I don’t know if I can agree with that. Life is when part of a man and part of a woman come together and evolve into another man or woman. So though there was not a time when the parts were not alive, I guess there is a point when the parts become a person/being.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:42 amLife.
Life does NOT exist until something causes it to come into being, yes?
Perhaps I’ve misunderstood you. When you said acting outside of themselves, I thought you meant something outside the material world. If you meant “X” acting upon “Y” with them both being material; that would make sense to me.
No. Energy is not matter, though it is a part of the material world.
Ultimately, whether a prayer is answered or not has to do with whether it was made in alignment with God's will for a certain thing prayed for to come to pass. So, ONLY if a prayer is in alignment with His will does He answer it as prayed. Of course, He may only answer a given prayer partially, or over a period of time. Again, it's all down to His will per how He honors prayer. It also matters whether or not one is living in a desire of obedience to Him, or whether one is deliberately living in deliberate opposition as to how His Word says we are to - but that's not to say He doesn't answer prayers of sinners, as we are ALL sinners. But A) He tells us to pray, even the general approach and attitude of prayer (per the Lord's prayer and other Scriptural examples), and B) He tell us He honors the prayers and listens to our concerns. But He doesn't tell us exactly how this will play out per a specific prayer. We are to do our part (in prayer), and God does His part. But, unquestionably, He has ALWAYS known His will, our prayers, whether or not they line up with His will, and exactly how He will honor them (or not) - as He has forever and always perfectly known all of these things.Ken: Ahh so if I understand you correctly; God knows all including if you were going to pray for “X” or not, and will make his decision based upon your decision to pray before you even decided to do it or not; thus if you decide to pray for “X” he would have chosen to answer your prayer before you even prayed based on his foreknowledge. Is this correct?
If the universe is a closed system, what caused the expansion? why did it expand?Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:17 pmA closed system is not defined as something restricted from expansion; it’s defined as a system that has nothing outside it to act upon it.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:42 amIf the universe is a closed system, how did it expand ??
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:52 pm
Do you agree that something cause things that do not exist to come into being?
I don’t know; can you give an example of this happening outside of your theistic beliefs?I don’t know if I can agree with that. Life is when part of a man and part of a woman come together and evolve into another man or woman. So though there was not a time when the parts were not alive, I guess there is a point when the parts become a person/being.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:42 amLife.
Life does NOT exist until something causes it to come into being, yes?Perhaps I’ve misunderstood you. When you said acting outside of themselves, I thought you meant something outside the material world. If you meant “X” acting upon “Y” with them both being material; that would make sense to me.No. Energy is not matter, though it is a part of the material world.
Isn't the (entire) universe an isolated system? Since the (entire) universe is literally everything that exists, there is nothing "outside" the universe.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:40 amIf the universe is a closed system, what caused the expansion? why did it expand?Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:17 pmA closed system is not defined as something restricted from expansion; it’s defined as a system that has nothing outside it to act upon it.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:42 amIf the universe is a closed system, how did it expand ??
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:52 pm
Do you agree that something cause things that do not exist to come into being?
I don’t know; can you give an example of this happening outside of your theistic beliefs?I don’t know if I can agree with that. Life is when part of a man and part of a woman come together and evolve into another man or woman. So though there was not a time when the parts were not alive, I guess there is a point when the parts become a person/being.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:42 amLife.
Life does NOT exist until something causes it to come into being, yes?Perhaps I’ve misunderstood you. When you said acting outside of themselves, I thought you meant something outside the material world. If you meant “X” acting upon “Y” with them both being material; that would make sense to me.No. Energy is not matter, though it is a part of the material world.
Please define "material world".