"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
If by intelligence you mean people, I agree.DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:40 amCan ordered, complex, structured data exist without intelligence?
Can a novel exist without intelligence?
Can a computer program exist without intelligence?
Can a mathematical algorithm exist without intelligence?
Can a scientific theory exist without intelligence?
So if human intelligence is required for the existence of ordered, complex, structured data such as a novel or a computer program,Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:49 amIf by intelligence you mean people, I agree.DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:40 amCan ordered, complex, structured data exist without intelligence?
Can a novel exist without intelligence?
Can a computer program exist without intelligence?
Can a mathematical algorithm exist without intelligence?
Can a scientific theory exist without intelligence?
What about a coral reef? Those look complex, structured, and intricate to me! What about Quantum Fluctuations that is responsible for hawking radiation? And those complicated things occur naturally. When you look past what we see here on Earth and consider all the natural events happening on the Sun, some distant star that we know nothing about, Galaxies a million light years away; are you sure nothing that complicated happens anywhere in the Universe? Because I’m not.DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:28 amSo if human intelligence is required for the existence of ordered, complex, structured data such as a novel or a computer program,Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:49 amIf by intelligence you mean people, I agree.DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:40 amCan ordered, complex, structured data exist without intelligence?
Can a novel exist without intelligence?
Can a computer program exist without intelligence?
Can a mathematical algorithm exist without intelligence?
Can a scientific theory exist without intelligence?
would you agree that intelligence of some sort is also required for the existence of ordered, structured data that is more complex and intricate than a novel or computer program?
I see information like energy; it's all around us but it requires an intelligent person to extract it for usage.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:24 am Kenny,
Do you know of any case of information or data coming into existence from nothing?
Which brings us back to the point I was making...Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:56 amWhat about a coral reef? Those look complex, structured, and intricate to me! What about Quantum Fluctuations that is responsible for hawking radiation? And those complicated things occur naturally. When you look past what we see here on Earth and consider all the natural events happening on the Sun, some distant star that we know nothing about, Galaxies a million light years away; are you sure nothing that complicated happens anywhere in the Universe? Because I’m not.DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:28 amSo if human intelligence is required for the existence of ordered, complex, structured data such as a novel or a computer program,Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:49 amIf by intelligence you mean people, I agree.DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:40 amCan ordered, complex, structured data exist without intelligence?
Can a novel exist without intelligence?
Can a computer program exist without intelligence?
Can a mathematical algorithm exist without intelligence?
Can a scientific theory exist without intelligence?
would you agree that intelligence of some sort is also required for the existence of ordered, structured data that is more complex and intricate than a novel or computer program?
Information is like energy ?Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:58 amI see information like energy; it's all around us but it requires an intelligent person to extract it for usage.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:24 am Kenny,
Do you know of any case of information or data coming into existence from nothing?
I understand your point. On Earth complicated, ordered, and structured things are usually the result of a human construct. But you are not addressing my point; if you are going to assume what happens on Earth is consistent with what happens concerning the entirety of the Universe when it comes to non-intelligence, then do the same for intelligence. Personally I find it absurd to assume that just because we see order and structure as a human construct on Earth, that it has to be for the entire Universe.DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:28 amWhich brings us back to the point I was making...Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:56 amWhat about a coral reef? Those look complex, structured, and intricate to me! What about Quantum Fluctuations that is responsible for hawking radiation? And those complicated things occur naturally. When you look past what we see here on Earth and consider all the natural events happening on the Sun, some distant star that we know nothing about, Galaxies a million light years away; are you sure nothing that complicated happens anywhere in the Universe? Because I’m not.DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:28 amSo if human intelligence is required for the existence of ordered, complex, structured data such as a novel or a computer program,Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:49 amIf by intelligence you mean people, I agree.DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:40 am
Can ordered, complex, structured data exist without intelligence?
Can a novel exist without intelligence?
Can a computer program exist without intelligence?
Can a mathematical algorithm exist without intelligence?
Can a scientific theory exist without intelligence?
would you agree that intelligence of some sort is also required for the existence of ordered, structured data that is more complex and intricate than a novel or computer program?
All of the phenomena that you mention are governed by structured, ordered, and extremely complex "laws of nature".
The Big Bang theory tells us when these structured, ordered, and extremely complex "laws of nature" began to function in our universe.
If we acknowledge that human intelligence is required for the ordered, structured and complex information in a novel or a computer system,
then intelligence of some sort would also be required for the structure, order, and complexity of the "laws of nature" that are many orders of magnitude more complex than any novel or computer program that humans can conceive.
There is energy all around us. Man can make a solar panel and use it to convert that energy into electricity and use that electricity for personal gain.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:57 amInformation is like energy ?Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:58 amI see information like energy; it's all around us but it requires an intelligent person to extract it for usage.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:24 am Kenny,
Do you know of any case of information or data coming into existence from nothing?
Do the information in your cells, in your DNA is like energy?
How so?
Kenny,Kenny wrote:
Personally I find it absurd to assume that just because we see order and structure as a human construct on Earth, that it has to be for the entire Universe.
That is exactly what I am doing...Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:47 amI understand your point. On Earth complicated, ordered, and structured things are usually the result of a human construct. But you are not addressing my point; if you are going to assume what happens on Earth is consistent with what happens concerning the entirety of the Universe when it comes to non-intelligence, then do the same for intelligence.DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:28 amWhich brings us back to the point I was making...Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:56 amWhat about a coral reef? Those look complex, structured, and intricate to me! What about Quantum Fluctuations that is responsible for hawking radiation? And those complicated things occur naturally. When you look past what we see here on Earth and consider all the natural events happening on the Sun, some distant star that we know nothing about, Galaxies a million light years away; are you sure nothing that complicated happens anywhere in the Universe? Because I’m not.DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:28 amSo if human intelligence is required for the existence of ordered, complex, structured data such as a novel or a computer program,
would you agree that intelligence of some sort is also required for the existence of ordered, structured data that is more complex and intricate than a novel or computer program?
All of the phenomena that you mention are governed by structured, ordered, and extremely complex "laws of nature".
The Big Bang theory tells us when these structured, ordered, and extremely complex "laws of nature" began to function in our universe.
If we acknowledge that human intelligence is required for the ordered, structured and complex information in a novel or a computer system,
then intelligence of some sort would also be required for the structure, order, and complexity of the "laws of nature" that are many orders of magnitude more complex than any novel or computer program that humans can conceive.
That’s now what I said, and that isn’t the point I was making. My point is that he should apply the same standards to his argument that he applies to the opposing argumentRickD wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:44 pmKenny,Kenny wrote:
Personally I find it absurd to assume that just because we see order and structure as a human construct on Earth, that it has to be for the entire Universe.
If the universe didn't have consistent laws, or order, it wouldn't function as it does.
You now go as far as saying that you find it absurd that the entire universe has consistent laws, and structure.
The lengths that people will go to, to deny the obvious.
Now that's absurd.
Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:47 amI understand your point. On Earth complicated, ordered, and structured things are usually the result of a human construct. But you are not addressing my point; if you are going to assume what happens on Earth is consistent with what happens concerning the entirety of the Universe when it comes to non-intelligence, then do the same for intelligence.DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:28 amWhich brings us back to the point I was making...Kenny wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:56 amWhat about a coral reef? Those look complex, structured, and intricate to me! What about Quantum Fluctuations that is responsible for hawking radiation? And those complicated things occur naturally. When you look past what we see here on Earth and consider all the natural events happening on the Sun, some distant star that we know nothing about, Galaxies a million light years away; are you sure nothing that complicated happens anywhere in the Universe? Because I’m not.DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:28 am
So if human intelligence is required for the existence of ordered, complex, structured data such as a novel or a computer program,
would you agree that intelligence of some sort is also required for the existence of ordered, structured data that is more complex and intricate than a novel or computer program?
All of the phenomena that you mention are governed by structured, ordered, and extremely complex "laws of nature".
The Big Bang theory tells us when these structured, ordered, and extremely complex "laws of nature" began to function in our universe.
If we acknowledge that human intelligence is required for the ordered, structured and complex information in a novel or a computer system,
then intelligence of some sort would also be required for the structure, order, and complexity of the "laws of nature" that are many orders of magnitude more complex than any novel or computer program that humans can conceive.
How could you treat earth the way you treat the rest of the universe, when you don’t know the rest of the universe? You are doing the opposite; treating the rest of the Universe the way you treat Earth.
They say scientists only know approx 4% of the Universe. What you are suggesting is like going to a library, picking up 1 book, reading it then assuming all the rest of the books in the Library is like the one you read.DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:50 pmIf a certain level of order, structure, and complexity is a function of intelligence on earth, then I apply that same criteria to the rest of the universe and I treat the same (or more) level of order, structure, and complexity as an indication of intelligence elsewhere in the universe... just as it is on earth.
And intelligence on earth doesn’t live eternally. Using your logic you would have to assume intelligence nowhere is capable of living eternally.
That's not my point. My point is about applying the same standard to his argument he applies to the opposing arguments.Philip wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:30 pm Ken: Personally I find it absurd to assume that just because we see order and structure as a human construct on Earth, that it has to be for the entire Universe.
As far as our argument about what is possible without an intelligence, the systems, laws, biological life, and huge list of things of immense complexity exist right here on earth, that would unquestionably require an intelligence source.