Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

[DBowling]

Do I believe that Jesus is a valid object of the same worship that is reserved for " The LORD thy God? no

Then your belief is directly contradicted by the Word of God in Matthew 14:33

Do I believe that Jesus is the one true God? no

Then your belief is directly contradicted by the Word of God in John 1:1-3

[PaulSacramento]

If Jesus is not worthy of worship and not God how can be save? how can he redeem? How can He Judge ??
How can He be the Alpha and Omega? the fist and the Last ?
If He is NOT God, then WHAT is He ??

[DBowling]

Lol prosekynēsan means worship not proskynéō was wondering why you gave me the wrong word but either way also,means to pay homage...

This is the very same thing that JW's say about the term.

The problem is that, when the term is applied to GOD it always means worship, when it applies to false gods as example of what NOT to do, it means worship and, within the context of how it is always applied to Jesus in the NT, it also means worship.

Not one did Jesus rebuke anyone that worshiped Him.

Because they were Paying Homage not worshiping him as they would worship God...

I'm curious...
Which English translation translates uses the phrase "paying homage" in Matthew 14:33?

What is the linguistic basis for translating the word proskynéō differently in Mat 4:10 and Mat 14:33?
Are you conforming you beliefs to what Scripture teaches about worshipping (proskynéō) "the Lord thy God", Jesus, and the Son of God?
Or are you distorting what proskynéō means in an effort to twist Scripture to conform to your personal beliefs?

[Philip]

So now you are doing truth by what your relatives think?

Lonnie: My uncle, who also has read this, said that a true christian would strive to communicate better by asking why a person believe the way they do without the use of scripture

So, if Scripture is God-breathed and inspired, we're not to use it to form our beliefs - because Scripture is our measure, correct? It's either true or not. Otherwise, Rick, Paul, DB and myself are merely spouting personal opinions! ALL opinions are based upon something. And the only "Something" that matters here is illuminated by Scripture.

Lonnie: I cannot see where continuing this conversation will solve anything....

I would mostly agree, as you have been given the evidence that is straightforward - you'll either believe it or not. And I hope you have asked God to show you the truth of the matter and are not merely seeking to confirm what you currently believe, motivated by a desire to continue believing it, rejecting any truth that might conflict with it.

Lonnie: When you cannot explain a simple thing Like " About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?”

Seriously, you boil down your unbelief to a passage that has a variety of possible meanings, certainly as Jesus was echoing the words of Psalm 22, a well-known Messianic passage, AND as He was simultaneously baring the sins of mankind, as God required Jesus' punishment and suffering (see Isaiah 53) - and remember, He was also fully human. But this is a terrible passage to stake your unbelief to!

Lonnie:

Do I believe that Jesus is a valid object of the same worship that is reserved for " The LORD thy God? no
Do I believe that Jesus is the one true God? no
Do I believe in the Holy Trinity as the 3 in one? Not in the way you believe it to be

Then you don't believe what Scripture teaches. Did you even go through the section on the Trinity I put before you? And for the beginning, in Genesis 1, how do you process the passage, "... Let us make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness - how do you explain this wording, found in all Bibles?

The NT redundantly says we are saved by faith in Christ and His suffering work and Resurrection. Surely you are not saying that faith in anything other than God Himself can save a person? Why the redundancy of passages showing the need for faith in Christ - and not just God - but also the many you've been shared with that equate faith in Jesus with faith in God? How was Jesus PERFECT, if not God. Your unbelief conflicts with a whole lot more than a cherrypicked verse.

[Philip]

Oh, and Lonnie - let's not forget the consequence "if" you are WRONG: Now that you know you are rejecting Jesus to be God, then what do you base your salvation upon? Because your version of Jesus isn't the ACTUAL One, the God/man suffering / resurrected Messiah. He's not a created Being - not like an angel, etc. So WHAT is He? He is eternal and sinless - attributes that only God has. Rejecting Jesus as God - certainly while fully knowing the Scriptural truths you've been exposed to - you'll die unsaved and in eternal separation from God. THAT is just how important getting one's heart and mind right about Jesus is!

[PaulSacramento]

Lol prosekynēsan means worship not proskynéō was wondering why you gave me the wrong word but either way also,means to pay homage...

This is the very same thing that JW's say about the term.

The problem is that, when the term is applied to GOD it always means worship, when it applies to false gods as example of what NOT to do, it means worship and, within the context of how it is always applied to Jesus in the NT, it also means worship.

Not one did Jesus rebuke anyone that worshiped Him.

Because they were Paying Homage not worshiping him as they would worship God...

I'm curious...
Which English translation translates uses the phrase "paying homage" in Matthew 14:33?

What is the linguistic basis for translating the word proskynéō differently in Mat 4:10 and Mat 14:33?
Are you conforming you beliefs to what Scripture teaches about worshipping (proskynéō) "the Lord thy God", Jesus, and the Son of God?
Or are you distorting what proskynéō means in an effort to twist Scripture to conform to your personal beliefs?

In the NWT, the JW's translation of the bible, the passages that use proskyneo towards Jesus are translated as "obeisance".
Of course, any other time it is translated as "worship".

[PaulSacramento]

To reject the teaching that Jesus has the same nature as God, the same form, as God, is to reject what Paul explicitly states.
You can certainly do that, but why?
To reject that Jesus is God is to reject what the Gospel of John explicitly states, you can do that, but why ?
Heck, even Isaiah's prophecy explicitly states:
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

[LonnieOwesn1973]

Oh, and Lonnie - let's not forget the consequence "if" you are WRONG: Now that you know you are rejecting Jesus to be God, then what do you base your salvation upon? Because your version of Jesus isn't the ACTUAL One, the God/man suffering / resurrected Messiah. He's not a created Being - not like an angel, etc. So WHAT is He? He is eternal and sinless - attributes that only God has. Rejecting Jesus as God - certainly while fully knowing the Scriptural truths you've been exposed to - you'll die unsaved and in eternal separation from God. THAT is just how important getting one's heart and mind right about Jesus is!

Ok to combine both ur comments in this one response...I do not reject Jesus and my relatives have different views , got to the same church and have been married for a great long while. I get oppinion from them and draw my own conclusion.... Remember one believes Jesus is God and the other does not..

Reconcile in my own mind that which I believe to be true... It is up to me to decude what I believe from all that I Have learned and as I am still searching, the fact remains that one of the Scripture, directly from Christ, Matthew 27:46 brings me back to the conclusion that God is God and Jesus is the Son of God...

And so I read the bible daily and I ask God for guidance.. He has always stood by me no matter what...

I actually think for myself but I do take into consideration everything presented to me contest what is being said abput me in this discussion...

So,once I get over this hurdle Matthew 27:46 then I will,move on to the next hurdle...

I am sorry but I mean no disrespect....

[RickD]

Lonnie,

Have you made any attempt to understand the Christian doctrine of The Trinity?

[DBowling]

the fact remains that one of the Scripture, directly from Christ, Matthew 27:46 brings me back to the conclusion that God is God and Jesus is the Son of God...

Yes...
Scripture does teach that...
God is God
and Jesus is the Son of God
There is nothing wrong with believing that
I believe that too

But Scripture doesn't stop there
Scripture also teaches that
Jesus is God (John 1:1)
and
the Son of God is "the Lord thy God" (Mat 4:10, Mat 14:33)

If you claim to believe what Scripture teaches about Jesus, then you need to accept EVERYTHING that Scripture teaches about Jesus
Including...
The Word (Jesus) was WITH God (John 1:1)
The Word (Jesus) WAS God (John 1:1)
All things were made through the Word (Jesus) (John 1:3)
Jesus is a valid object of worship (Mat 14:33)
The Son of God is a valid object of worship (Mat 14:33)

You are not honoring Jesus or the Word of God if you discard what they say because they don't conform to your personal beliefs.

[LonnieOwesn1973]

Lonnie,

Have you made any attempt to understand the Christian doctrine of The Trinity?

Actually I have, and I have come to the conclusio that the Trinity is not 3 divine diaries but one...

And as is my belief Jesus is not a god but the Son of God... I cannot get passed Matthew 27:46 and yes I am trying regardless what anyone thinks...

Like I said not disrespect meant

[LonnieOwesn1973]

the fact remains that one of the Scripture, directly from Christ, Matthew 27:46 brings me back to the conclusion that God is God and Jesus is the Son of God...

Yes...
Scripture does teach that...
God is God
and Jesus is the Son of God
There is nothing wrong with believing that
I believe that too

But Scripture doesn't stop there
Scripture also teaches that
Jesus is God (John 1:1)
and
the Son of God is "the Lord thy God" (Mat 4:10, Mat 14:33)

If you claim to believe what Scripture teaches about Jesus, then you need to accept EVERYTHING that Scripture teaches about Jesus
Including...
The Word (Jesus) was WITH God (John 1:1)
The Word (Jesus) WAS God (John 1:1)
All things were made through the Word (Jesus) (John 1:3)
Jesus is a valid object of worship (Mat 14:33)
The Son of God is a valid object of worship (Mat 14:33)

You are not honoring Jesus or the Word of God if you discard what they say because they don't conform to your personal beliefs.

I mean no disrespect at all but it is my belief that Jesus is not God based on multiple scriptures not just the ones I am asking for an explanation on...

It is hard for me to place Jesus as God due to the fact that, not one time did he make that claim nor did anyone else in the Bible from all that I have read and yes I do diligently seek the knowledge to move forward but to date no one can explain why Jesus would worship himself, would ask himself why he had forsaken himself...can you understand how that would bring about questions???
And why would God say" behold my beloved Son,,in whom I am well pleased." If Jesus was God???

I attack no one for their beliefs simply because that would not be indicative of the Christian faith...

[LonnieOwesn1973]

the fact remains that one of the Scripture, directly from Christ, Matthew 27:46 brings me back to the conclusion that God is God and Jesus is the Son of God...

Yes...
Scripture does teach that...
God is God
and Jesus is the Son of God
There is nothing wrong with believing that
I believe that too

But Scripture doesn't stop there
Scripture also teaches that
Jesus is God (John 1:1)
and
the Son of God is "the Lord thy God" (Mat 4:10, Mat 14:33)

If you claim to believe what Scripture teaches about Jesus, then you need to accept EVERYTHING that Scripture teaches about Jesus
Including...
The Word (Jesus) was WITH God (John 1:1)
The Word (Jesus) WAS God (John 1:1)
All things were made through the Word (Jesus) (John 1:3)
Jesus is a valid object of worship (Mat 14:33)
The Son of God is a valid object of worship (Mat 14:33)

You are not honoring Jesus or the Word of God if you discard what they say because they don't conform to your personal beliefs.

The same could be said of y'all as well...because it feels,like you have disregarded what I say because it doesn't conform to ypur beliefs...

[DBowling]

Here are some key Scriptures regarding the Trinity

The Father is God
Romans 1:7
7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Son (Jesus) is God
John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God.

The Holy Spirit is God
1 Corinthians 3:16
16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

God is One
Deuteronomy 6:4
4 “Hear, O Israel! The Lord (Yahweh) is our God (elohim-plural), the Lord (Yahweh) is one!

[DBowling]

the fact remains that one of the Scripture, directly from Christ, Matthew 27:46 brings me back to the conclusion that God is God and Jesus is the Son of God...

Yes...
Scripture does teach that...
God is God
and Jesus is the Son of God
There is nothing wrong with believing that
I believe that too

But Scripture doesn't stop there
Scripture also teaches that
Jesus is God (John 1:1)
and
the Son of God is "the Lord thy God" (Mat 4:10, Mat 14:33)

If you claim to believe what Scripture teaches about Jesus, then you need to accept EVERYTHING that Scripture teaches about Jesus
Including...
The Word (Jesus) was WITH God (John 1:1)
The Word (Jesus) WAS God (John 1:1)
All things were made through the Word (Jesus) (John 1:3)
Jesus is a valid object of worship (Mat 14:33)
The Son of God is a valid object of worship (Mat 14:33)

You are not honoring Jesus or the Word of God if you discard what they say because they don't conform to your personal beliefs.

The same could be said of y'all as well...because it feels,like you have disregarded what I say because it doesn't conform to ypur beliefs...

I disregard what you say because because what you say doesn't conform to what the Word of God says
And what you say doesn't conform to what Jesus says either...

Once again,,,
If you claim to believe what Scripture teaches about Jesus, then you need to accept EVERYTHING that Scripture teaches about Jesus
Including...
The Word (Jesus) was WITH God (John 1:1)
The Word (Jesus) WAS God (John 1:1)
All things were made through the Word (Jesus) (John 1:3)
Jesus is a valid object of worship (Mat 14:33)
The Son of God is a valid object of worship (Mat 14:33)