Evidence for God from Science

The assumption seems to be too, that there's a net-zero impact here.

I wonder how some of those advocating legalization might feel if standing before God they were introduced to someone who entered the "profession" because it was "legal" who would not have otherwise but for that change in status?

I know I wouldn't.

Canuckster1127 wrote:The assumption seems to be too, that there's a net-zero impact here.

I wonder how some of those advocating legalization might feel if standing before God they were introduced to someone who entered the "profession" because it was "legal" who would not have otherwise but for that change in status?

I know I wouldn't.

Heck...what about someone introduced to you while standing before God who was introduced to alcohol through the "good in moderation" theme...but being a human couldn't control the moderation part?? I don't see anyone here trying to rekindle the prohibition laws...when we already know for a fact that alcohol is a drug, is harmful, can and does ruin familes,...everything and more what you (a general "you") are saying about prostitution and marijuana.
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zoegirl wrote:Hey, if it were up to me, prnography would be illegal (And I am always mystified at the silence of the feminists at pornography)! anf any strip club would be shut down.

It is...to those not old enough to view and/or partake. Same as it should be for our topic. It seems to be just fine for alcohol and cigarette smoking...???
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BavarianWheels wrote:.
Interesting thoughts...with which I agree with in general. My problem (I guess it's a problem) is that there is no such "effort" to make other things already legal, Illegal...such as the effects of alcoholism, drug addiction (by this I mean plain old cigarettes)...but you want to stop prostitution (and except for Nevada and a handful of other areas I assume) prostitution is already illegal. Yet with all your rants about, "I cannot believe anyone would want to legitimize..." nothing is accomplished by it being illegal! The problem I see with your arguments for leaving/making prostitution illegal is that it doesn't stop prostitution...in fact I believe it makes it worse.

Well why don't we abandon all the laws then? There will always be speeders, always be murderers, always be drug users.... Let them do what they please... After all, it is interfering with my fun.

BavarianWheels wrote:I'm not saying condone the "profession" as a legitimate job, but leave it alone as there are no players unwillingly in the game. Some are left with not much of a choice, I can agree with that, but it still isn't impossible to walk away from. The problem is that these girls (and guys) are used to a certain amount of money and starting over isn't going to fill that amount because most are also addicts and you can't feed an addict on a minimum wage income. Are there abused victims in this profession? Of course there are...mostly because they are in an illegal profession and they have hardly any recourse as they see it. Is there drugs involved? How else do you hold a person as such?

So it is money over morality? What about right from wrong? So if I can't afford something because I'm on minimum wage income that gives me the right over moralistic values?

BavarianWheels wrote:Does it harm me or you, non-players? Not in the least.

Yes, it does harm other people... It invites many other problems into the communities, such as drug trafficking, murder, suicide, robberies, and the like.

BavarianWheels wrote:We will always have to foot the bill for the less fortunate. If it's not the prostitutes, it's the abused women who can't seem to keep their legs closed and keep popping out children because society allows them to be essentially prostitutes, yet they don't "earn" a wage from their 'john', but from Uncle Sam instead...it's legal that way.

That is a derogatory statement against abused women....

BavarianWheels wrote:In the end, the act itself isn't what the lawmakers are outlaw'ing...it's the inability to tax their income...it's politics really...has nothing to do with morality. Some of us would like to think so, but it's just wishful thinking.

So the laws are given just to fulfill lawmakers greedy desires? So let's get rid of them then...

Gman wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:.
Interesting thoughts...with which I agree with in general. My problem (I guess it's a problem) is that there is no such "effort" to make other things already legal, Illegal...such as the effects of alcoholism, drug addiction (by this I mean plain old cigarettes)...but you want to stop prostitution (and except for Nevada and a handful of other areas I assume) prostitution is already illegal. Yet with all your rants about, "I cannot believe anyone would want to legitimize..." nothing is accomplished by it being illegal! The problem I see with your arguments for leaving/making prostitution illegal is that it doesn't stop prostitution...in fact I believe it makes it worse.

Well why don't we abandon all the laws then? There will always be speeders, always be murderers, always be drug users.... Let them do what they please... After all, it is interfering with my fun.

BavarianWheels wrote:I'm not saying condone the "profession" as a legitimate job, but leave it alone as there are no players unwillingly in the game. Some are left with not much of a choice, I can agree with that, but it still isn't impossible to walk away from. The problem is that these girls (and guys) are used to a certain amount of money and starting over isn't going to fill that amount because most are also addicts and you can't feed an addict on a minimum wage income. Are there abused victims in this profession? Of course there are...mostly because they are in an illegal profession and they have hardly any recourse as they see it. Is there drugs involved? How else do you hold a person as such?

So it is money over morality? What about right from wrong? So if I can't afford something because I'm on minimum wage income that gives me the right over moralistic values?

BavarianWheels wrote:Does it harm me or you, non-players? Not in the least.

Yes, it does harm other people... It invites many other problems into the communities, such as drug trafficking, murder, suicide, robberies, and the like.

BavarianWheels wrote:We will always have to foot the bill for the less fortunate. If it's not the prostitutes, it's the abused women who can't seem to keep their legs closed and keep popping out children because society allows them to be essentially prostitutes, yet they don't "earn" a wage from their 'john', but from Uncle Sam instead...it's legal that way.

That is a derogatory statement against abused women....

BavarianWheels wrote:In the end, the act itself isn't what the lawmakers are outlaw'ing...it's the inability to tax their income...it's politics really...has nothing to do with morality. Some of us would like to think so, but it's just wishful thinking.

So the laws are given just to fulfill lawmakers greedy desires? So let's get rid of them then...

I guess you can afford to be sarcastic and antagonizing in your post(s). I can't so...I'll refrain from returning the favor.

Speeding and murder as laws serve a purpose. Murder because it means someone killed someone else who was not ready to die yet. Incidently, I would like to legalize planned deaths to those that wish it... Speed laws are useful because if there is no order on the highways it puts many other people involved in the same act (driving) in danger. Drug laws ONLY affect drug users. The law against drug use doesn't affect me because I don't use drugs of the illegal nature unless it is prescribed by a doctor in extreme situations (morphine...) Laws against prostitution serve no purpose to those not willing to partake in it. If it was legalized and it then invites others who haven't partaken of prostitution because of it's question of legality, it then becomes THEIR problem...it still doesn't affect someone never having intentions to seek a prostitute.

Invites drug trafficking, murder, suicide, robberies...and the like...of course you understand alcohol does the same, yet you're not pushing to make alcohol illegal. Do you drink alcohol on a "moderate" basis. Interesting isn't it. Even if you don't, it's ok on one hand...not ok on the other?

Derrogatory statement against abused women? Unfortunately it is a true problem. More kids = more income from Uncle Sam. You can make it out to be an ugly statement...doesn't make it any less true.

Lawmakers/politicians do ONLY that which will aid their stay in government. Show me one honest politician and I'll show you one good liar.
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BavarianWheels wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:The assumption seems to be too, that there's a net-zero impact here.

I wonder how some of those advocating legalization might feel if standing before God they were introduced to someone who entered the "profession" because it was "legal" who would not have otherwise but for that change in status?

I know I wouldn't.

Heck...what about someone introduced to you while standing before God who was introduced to alcohol through the "good in moderation" theme...but being a human couldn't control the moderation part?? I don't see anyone here trying to rekindle the prohibition laws...when we already know for a fact that alcohol is a drug, is harmful, can and does ruin familes,...everything and more what you (a general "you") are saying about prostitution and marijuana.
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Jesus drank wine. Paul advocated a little wine for Timothy's stomach.

I don't recall Jesus ever advocating just a little prostitution, adultery and fornication just to keep things under control, do you?

Some things are admonished against in excess, such as alcohol (that is drunkeness.) Some things are completely warned against in any degree, such as lust which Jesus even goes so far as to state begins in the in mind as the thought. Prostitution is almost always adultery or fornication and for the Christian it is a personal standard I believe applies beyond to a community standard.

Apples and oranges ....... That anaology just doesn't fly.

Compelling arguments, that is for sure.... so do you think what we've really got to do with prostitution is accept it is part of the underworld, punishable by law, and hope that one day it won't be there? I guess this is what most of us do anyway for most of the time...

Canuckster1127 wrote:Jesus drank wine. Paul advocated a little wine for Timothy's stomach.

Jesus also kept the Sabbath as He was Lord of it...but that's another subject.

Canuckster1127 wrote:I don't recall Jesus ever advocating just a little prostitution, adultery and fornication just to keep things under control, do you?

Nope...neither do I recall Jesus ever advocating worshiping just a little skewed from His Word...but that is another subject.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Some things are admonished against in excess, such as alcohol (that is drunkeness.)

So in your estimation one can be "slightly" drunk...but not excessively drunk. ok.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Some things are completely warned against in any degree, such as lust which Jesus even goes so far as to state begins in the in mind as the thought. Prostitution is almost always adultery or fornication and for the Christian it is a personal standard I believe applies beyond to a community standard.

Sin was warned against in all degrees...outlaw sin through our government too?

Canuckster1127 wrote:Apples and oranges ....... That anaology just doesn't fly.

Not apples and oranges...all the same. Sin is sin...there are no degrees of sin. Some of you say that marijuana is a "entry" drug that leads to other more potent and abusive drug use. So since I don't hear any thoughts AGAINST alcohol, I would assume alcohol is not an entry drink to drunkeness? Hmm...apples and oranges...I love a good fruit salad.
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charlottecowell wrote:Compelling arguments, that is for sure.... so do you think what we've really got to do with prostitution is accept it is part of the underworld, punishable by law, and hope that one day it won't be there? I guess this is what most of us do anyway for most of the time...

No. That doesn't necessarily follow from the reasoning on my position at all.

I recognize clearly that human nature being what it is, legislation against something doesn't solve problems. In one sense most legislation is morality based but in another, you cannot and do not implement change in a person's heart by imposing punishment. You may influence behavior from the perspective of a fear of punishment, and that's a legitimate stick for a Government to use by the way, but on a deeper level it's better to capture the hearts of people to want to do right. Government can't accomplish that. Because they can't however, isn't a justification in my mind to not address such issues or lower the bar when there is real harm to individuals and society.

Two different institutions are involved here and then something more. The State by my understanding does have a responsibility, delivered by God whether it is recognized bv them or not, to establish laws and standards that protect the individual and society at large from undesirable behavior. Christians, I believe have a responsibility to use their votes and support within a democracy in a manner consistent with Christian social values.

The Church however is not the state (nor should it be) and our mandate is to follow the model of Christ. The example of the woman taken in adultery is very apt. He defended her against the vigilante mob attempting to use her situation to cause Him trouble, but then he turned to her and with the same phrase indicating that he did not accuse her, also told her to go and sin no more. Both elements were modelled by Christ. The Church's responsibility doesn't end with our vote against that which is harmful. We are expected to interact, be present and reach those who need Christ, loving them while holding to the standards of God, mindful that we are susceptable to the same temptation and behavior.

Deeper yet, we model what Christ did and taught. The only real work that will change hearts is that of the Holy Spririt and bringing people to Christ.

In the context of this conversation I see the legislative and judicial elements as relatively minor to what God has called the Church to do and be. It's important, but it pales in comparison to what Christ modeled and taught us to be and in the end it is the ultimate purpose of the Church, our Great Commission to get the gospel out of our Church enclaves not through political means, but be being with the people Christ was with and reaching them with the Gospel.

BavarianWheels wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:Jesus drank wine. Paul advocated a little wine for Timothy's stomach.

Jesus also kept the Sabbath as He was Lord of it...but that's another subject.

Canuckster1127 wrote:I don't recall Jesus ever advocating just a little prostitution, adultery and fornication just to keep things under control, do you?

Nope...neither do I recall Jesus ever advocating worshiping just a little skewed from His Word...but that is another subject.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Some things are admonished against in excess, such as alcohol (that is drunkeness.)

So in your estimation one can be "slightly" drunk...but not excessively drunk. ok.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Some things are completely warned against in any degree, such as lust which Jesus even goes so far as to state begins in the in mind as the thought. Prostitution is almost always adultery or fornication and for the Christian it is a personal standard I believe applies beyond to a community standard.

Sin was warned against in all degrees...outlaw sin through our government too?

Canuckster1127 wrote:Apples and oranges ....... That anaology just doesn't fly.

Not apples and oranges...all the same. Sin is sin...there are no degrees of sin. Some of you say that marijuana is a "entry" drug that leads to other more potent and abusive drug use. So since I don't hear any thoughts AGAINST alcohol, I would assume alcohol is not an entry drink to drunkeness? Hmm...apples and oranges...I love a good fruit salad.
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Come on Bav Wheels. I've purposely held off introducing other elements from past conversations out of respect for you and to keep the argument on the issues. That's a cheap debating tactic and frankly you're wide open to some pretty strong comments as to how serious your commitment to holiness is in terms of sabbtah-keeping while holding the position you're advocating and frankly your position on this issue surprises me given your position on others but I accept that you're sincere and I'm trying to understand it and argue respectfully with you. It wouldn't hurt to return the favor and keep things above board.

There surely are things that the Scripture warns against in excess, such as drunkeness, while allowing things in moderation. There are also things that are completely prohibited such as adultery and fornication. I conceded earlier, if you noticed it, that it would be a stronger position to argue for marijauna usage under that rationale than prostitution, for just that reason.

Of course, government and legislation is morality based in many cases. Government is empowered by God (even governments as corrupt and oppressive such as the Roman Empire which was the context of Romans 13 and the sayings of Christ in many instances.

I'm trying to understand how a Christian can move to permissiveness in social legislation on something that's not tolerated in terms of degrees such as Prostitution as appropriate based not just on personal holiness but the social and personal impact it has on people. If you're feeling conviction on it or feel I'm questioning you personally beyond trying to understand that, then let me know and I'll address it. If you want to pull the other stuff in, then be prepared to be challenged strongly yourself. Better yet, why not stick to the issues and keep the jibes and personalities out of it as best we can.

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As low as it seems, it has truth to it. However I can admit it was somewhat a jab. See I can admit fault. While you may be right in that it's a difficult stance to take in light of my "sabbath-keeping" (which has never been promoted as perfect) but it is an argument, not based on my religious beliefs as that would promote keeping prostitution illegal and drugs illegal, but on the basis of what SOCIETY deems legal and illegal and on what grounds.

The point of the matter is what is it about prostitution that is wrong other than sex between two unmarried people from a societal point of view? Is there a law about having consentual sex with another person without the exchange of monies? Should there be? It also is against Biblical morals. What is it about the exchange of monies that makes this "crime" a crime? On the same vane, what is it about drug use that is unBiblical? Is it use in moderation or excessive use...if mentioned at all? There are lots of things that we do as a society that brings the society down as a whole...alcoholism is one...yet it's legal to be an alcoholic if the alcoholism doesn't break other rules within society? Why is that ok and the other not ok?

If the grounds for making an act illegal is one of moral grounds, then what are the criteria for making an act illegal? Then should everything fall under the same scrutiny?

If you hold that prostitution is immoral, wrong, causes problems, family separation, destroys lives,...then what about alcohol? I'm all for keeping prostitution illegal IF we do the same to all other activities fitting the same bill. However because the government can cash-in on taxing alcohol and taxing smoking...there are no such laws against either of these "moral" acts since they never cause any of the problems prostitution causes....italics denotes sarcasm.
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TO me the exchange of money is a HUGE factor.

Two consenting adults can be as foolish, stupid, and carerless as they want and, yes, it is horribly destructive

AS soon as one person is placing a price on something, they have essentially changed the exchange. The one person, the prostitute, is under the control of the one paying money. And you can legalize it all you want and place as many "protective" laws on the business transaction, there will still be incredible abuse. And these are human bodies and souls we're talking about, not simply abuse in tradew laws.

Exchanging sexual favors for money inherently changes the interaction between the two.

Let's examine the porn industry, shall we, as an example of these supposed legal protection? There are laws in teh business where the workers are supposed to be tested for STD's every so often. Then male workers are supposed to always wear condoms. S here we have a business that is under legal protective laws and there are still INCREDIBLE abuses. There are porn producers who let their workers slip on testing and not wear condom simply because it will sell more money. Legalizing the health practices here has not appreciably changed the health and it CERTAINLY hasn't protected the girls invovled.

if one thing's clear it's that the law just isn't tackling the problem effectively, one way or another. legislating against prostitution doesn't work and legislating for it would throw up a new set of problems and is incompatible with biblical teaching, no matter what moral dilemmas that poses in all parts of society. As I mentioned earlier, and someone else above, the actual solution involves every person making a conscious choice to live a more moral life - which necessarily involves inhabiting an environment which permits this...lots of hard choices?

zoegirl wrote:TO me the exchange of money is a HUGE factor.

Two consenting adults can be as foolish, stupid, and carerless as they want and, yes, it is horribly destructive

AS soon as one person is placing a price on something, they have essentially changed the exchange. The one person, the prostitute, is under the control of the one paying money. And you can legalize it all you want and place as many "protective" laws on the business transaction, there will still be incredible abuse. And these are human bodies and souls we're talking about, not simply abuse in tradew laws.

Exchanging sexual favors for money inherently changes the interaction between the two.

Let's examine the porn industry, shall we, as an example of these supposed legal protection? There are laws in teh business where the workers are supposed to be tested for STD's every so often. Then male workers are supposed to always wear condoms. S here we have a business that is under legal protective laws and there are still INCREDIBLE abuses. There are porn producers who let their workers slip on testing and not wear condom simply because it will sell more money. Legalizing the health practices here has not appreciably changed the health and it CERTAINLY hasn't protected the girls invovled.

And how exactly does this affect those that don't partake of the porn industry or prostitution? It doesn't. How is it that porn stars not using condoms affects you? How does it affect me? How does it affect society? Diseases? Were these diseases a "porn only" disease? Were they, are they a "prostitute only" disease? No. Fact is, as long as sex is present within a sinful world, these diseases will remain whether paying for it or getting a freebie.

So you said the exchange of monies is a "HUGE" factor, but you failed to state what that factor is. What does the transaction change? Each one walks away satisfied in the transaction regardless of the product. One or both may feel guilty in their actions...but that is the price of the action.

The prostitute is not under any "control" of the john as the prostitute not only sets the price, but also sets the limitations. The john is at the mercy of the prostitute in paying for what he/she wants.

Abuse is hardly exclusive to prostitution. Shall we make everything that leads to abuse illegal?
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