Evidence for God from Science

Canuckster1127 wrote:PL

Doesn't this philosophically have a lot in common with the classical question, "Can God create an object so large, that He cannot lift it?"

In a sense, "Can a sovereign God who is omniscient, and omnipotent create a finite being; man, and allow that man moral free agency with the right to chose between prescribed paths with consequences contingent upon that choice without compromising the immutable attributes of God?"

Again, this is more of a question, "What does God do?" as opposed to "What can He do?" God can do anything. As Bernie pointed out in the Universalist thread, It is possible for God to have saved Judas. However, as I pointed out, it doesn't mean that He did.

Calvinists do believe that man is a "free moral agent". God does not force man to sin. Man's sins are his own. He sins because He wants to. This, in the end, is the problem. All of man has been corrupted by the fall. Unregenerate man...

…is deceitful and desperately wicked (Jer. 17:9)
…drinks iniquity like water (Job 15:16)
…does not seek God (Romans 3:11)
…loves darkness and hates the light (John 3:19-20)
…is dead in trespasses (Eph. 2:1)
…cannot understand things that are Spiritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14)
…is a slave to sin (John 8:34)
…can no more choose good than a leopard can change his spots (Jer. 13:23)

This is what man's free will profits him. Unless his will is changed, man will continue to be at emnity with God. This is the reason for the New Birth. We must be born again, for unless we are, we cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:3). This is why God gives us a new heart, and puts His Spirit in us, so that He will cause us to walk in His statutes (Ezekiel 36:26-27). (This is one of the passages I'm working on in my reply.)

Canuckster1127 wrote:How much of this question is based on the viewpoint of us as humans asking it, and how much of it is based in any real sense upon the infinite attributes of God, which by definition, we as finite cannot completely grasp.

I understand and agree completely that that which is revealed in Scripture must be accepted as the final word. I still wonder how much is exegesis and how much is eisogesis on both sides of this classical debate

This is the heart of the issue. God's Sovereignty is easily derived from simple exegesis, say of Daniel 4:35, Isaiah 46:9-11, Psalm 33:10-12, Ephesian 1:11, etc. I'm sure most here are familiar with the verses. On the other hand, libertarian free will is the result of eisogesis. While it is demanded of most Christians today, it simply cannot be supported by Scripture. It is, as John Owen correctly states in his Idol of Free Will, an issue of the peoples' brains. The whole debate, as well as attempts to resolve it, begin with the assumption that libertarian free will exists, and scriptures are interpreted in that light. I deny that any such thing exists.

God Bless,

PL

Calvinists do believe that man is a "free moral agent". God does not force man to sin. Man's sins are his own. He sins because He wants to. This, in the end, is the problem. All of man has been corrupted by the fall. Unregenerate man...

…is deceitful and desperately wicked (Jer. 17:9)
…drinks iniquity like water (Job 15:16)
…does not seek God (Romans 3:11)
…loves darkness and hates the light (John 3:19-20)
…is dead in trespasses (Eph. 2:1)
…cannot understand things that are Spiritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14)
…is a slave to sin (John 8:34)
…can no more choose good than a leopard can change his spots (Jer. 13:23)

But what about the potter and the clay analogy that you use often? Doesn't it say that he makes some to honour and some to dishonour? Has mercy on some and hardens others. You can't have it both ways, he either leaves some to their ruin or deliberately hardens them. which is it?

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?


Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

He hardens them, as is clear throughout the Scriptures. Hardening a heart and turning them over to their own reprobate mind are one and the same act.

puritan lad wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:PL

Doesn't this philosophically have a lot in common with the classical question, "Can God create an object so large, that He cannot lift it?"

In a sense, "Can a sovereign God who is omniscient, and omnipotent create a finite being; man, and allow that man moral free agency with the right to chose between prescribed paths with consequences contingent upon that choice without compromising the immutable attributes of God?"

Again, this is more of a question, "What does God do?" as opposed to "What can He do?" God can do anything. As Bernie pointed out in the Universalist thread, It is possible for God to have saved Judas. However, as I pointed out, it doesn't mean that He did.

Calvinists do believe that man is a "free moral agent". God does not force man to sin. Man's sins are his own. He sins because He wants to. This, in the end, is the problem. All of man has been corrupted by the fall. Unregenerate man...

…is deceitful and desperately wicked (Jer. 17:9)
…drinks iniquity like water (Job 15:16)
…does not seek God (Romans 3:11)
…loves darkness and hates the light (John 3:19-20)
…is dead in trespasses (Eph. 2:1)
…cannot understand things that are Spiritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14)
…is a slave to sin (John 8:34)
…can no more choose good than a leopard can change his spots (Jer. 13:23)

This is what man's free will profits him. Unless his will is changed, man will continue to be at emnity with God. This is the reason for the New Birth. We must be born again, for unless we are, we cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:3). This is why God gives us a new heart, and puts His Spirit in us, so that He will cause us to walk in His statutes (Ezekiel 36:26-27). (This is one of the passages I'm working on in my reply.)

Canuckster1127 wrote:How much of this question is based on the viewpoint of us as humans asking it, and how much of it is based in any real sense upon the infinite attributes of God, which by definition, we as finite cannot completely grasp.

I understand and agree completely that that which is revealed in Scripture must be accepted as the final word. I still wonder how much is exegesis and how much is eisogesis on both sides of this classical debate

This is the heart of the issue. God's Sovereignty is easily derived from simple exegesis, say of Daniel 4:35, Isaiah 46:9-11, Psalm 33:10-12, Ephesian 1:11, etc. I'm sure most here are familiar with the verses. On the other hand, libertarian free will is the result of eisogesis. While it is demanded of most Christians today, it simply cannot be supported by Scripture. It is, as John Owen correctly states in his Idol of Free Will, an issue of the peoples' brains. The whole debate, as well as attempts to resolve it, begin with the assumption that libertarian free will exists, and scriptures are interpreted in that light. I deny that any such thing exists.

God Bless,

PL

PL,

Thanks for the response. I understand clearly where you are coming from in this regard.

I suspect equally clear the response of those from other positions would not necessarily question your positions sincerity, but would take issue with where some eisogesis is involved.

There is a great deal of logic involved with both your position and the others, as well there should be. Is logic the final word and value in terms of resolving this issue? You've indicated that you agree that there is an element of mystery in this area, rooted in the inscrutible nature of the immutable attributes of God by we who are finite (my words, not yours, but I think it reflects what I hear you saying.)

To your understanding, where does this enter into the picture and what are the implications of it in practical terms upon your theology?

I hope you don't mind me asking these questions in this manner. I'm not trying to manipulate you. Other involved in this conversation are welcome to answer it as well.

I think that it is helpful to try and get to the root of some of these issues by such socratic type questioning.

I'm trying to understand for myself, these issues better and not use the element of mystery as an excuse not to address the legitimate issues that Scripture does address. I'm not convinced that either side in this debate (and I mean it here in the context of the historical debate, not just these recent threads) has or can and that leads me to believe that perhaps both sides have striven too hard to systematize an understanding that perhaps relies more upon the worldview and interpretation of all that is involved rather than a purely exegetical approach.

Thanks in adavance for any consideration you give to answering this.

Bart

PL wrote:This is the heart of the issue. God's Sovereignty is easily derived from simple exegesis, say of Daniel 4:35, Isaiah 46:9-11, Psalm 33:10-12, Ephesian 1:11, etc. I'm sure most here are familiar with the verses. On the other hand, libertarian free will is the result of eisogesis. While it is demanded of most Christians today, it simply cannot be supported by Scripture. It is, as John Owen correctly states in his Idol of Free Will, an issue of the peoples' brains. The whole debate, as well as attempts to resolve it, begin with the assumption that libertarian free will exists, and scriptures are interpreted in that light. I deny that any such thing exists.

PL — Understanding God's sovereignty is not something easily derived from by simple exegesis as you state.

Isaiah 46:9-11, “Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. 10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. 11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do” NIV

To gain a glimpse of God's sovereignty as well as gain some limited insights into what God's sovereignty entails will line up with all other aspects of Gods Nature, Character, and Wisdom. If not, it will be in error.

The bible boldly declares what God's Plan is and that is a new heaven and earth with the old passing away. This new era will be free from sin and death and where righteousness dwells. Revelations 21:1-5, Isaiah 25:8, Isaiah 43:16-21, Isaiah 66:22-24. God makes all things right justly, righteously, fairly, lovingly, with perfect judgment, graciously, etc and etc.

Isaiah 45:18, “For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.” KJV

The Lord is the Alpha and Omega as it is written, Isaiah 41:4, Revelation 1:8, Revelation 21:6, and Revelations 22:12-17. He sees the beginning and end and middle all at one time. God's plan is a new heaven and earth. That is his goal, his plan, and his purpose from the beginning. All else in between leads to this point and in this God's counsel will stand and changes not.

However what resides in between can change but it will not change the final outcome. This is what many fail to comprehend: God displaying a sovereign wisdom profound that grants freedom to think and reason to his created beings of intelligence. This proves God's Character, Nature, and Wisdom and that God is all that He is. This absolves God from creating evil and sorts the chaff from the wheat for the final goal justly leading to the final outcome perfectly.

Note Genesis 6: 5-8: God said and purposed to destroy wicked and mischievous humanity by the flood. He changed his mind but not his purpose as 2 Peter 3:1-13 states and the book of Revelations testify. God knows the beginning to end and can do what he pleases in between that leads to his final goal.

He demonstrates by sparing Noah and family, that he is righteous, even handed, fair, just, loving, will punish justly, etc, and leaves a message for future generations. This is the middle part in which we live. God can change his mind but his purpose stands: proving Himself that He is all that He is. Only God can do this. To deny that God can do this denies God's essence of who he is.

Jonah preached to Nineveh and they repented, Matthew 12:41. God said he would destroy the city. Does Nineveh exist today? Did not God destroy it like he said albeit many years later? Yes God offered a choice to repent, and honored their repentance. But the legacy of repentance drifted from memory in later Ninevehians and later Nineveh was destroyed as God said would happen.

If this repentance was coerced it proves God not even handed. The people were offered a choice to repent. God sovereignty ordained people to think and reason independently and God honors this, even when foreknowing all the outcomes. Now, do the outcomes adversely affect God's final Goal? No! Not at all. God does allow liberty as it cannot affect God's purpose, plan, and final Goal — God proves he is Sovereign and truly all powerlly working through all things as the bible teaches, Romans 8:28.

Hezekiah prayed and God changed his mind and honored the prayer of a righteous man which availeth much. However, God's future goal, purpose, and plan was not effected by it — was it? God is sovereign and truly works through all things, fairly, perfectly, justly, and profoundly.

God is not hostage to free will because he designed beings of intelligence with the ability to reason and think independently. He will work through it, instead. That is true God sovereignty. This is something many fail to see and thus reduce God's sovereignty to pure determinism which causes God to deny His nature, Character, and Wisdom. Truly God is all powerful.

God is fair, he offers a chance to repent. People are free to accept or reject God's offer but God's final outcome — future tense will stand. God proves He is sovereign and can govern the universe rightly and perfectly and works through all things because God's wisdom carefully weighs and carefully deliberates all things accord to his plan, purpose, and goal. That is the meaning of Ephesians 1:11 Greek words translate counsel and will.

Here are the scriptures you cited: Isaiah 46:9-11, Psalm 33:10-12, Ephesians 1:11, and Daniel 4:33-40 now read them in the light of what was just wrote.

Psalms 33:11 But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations. NIV

Acts 15:16-19, "After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent - Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, 17that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'18that have been known for ages. 19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. NIV

Ephesians 1:11, “In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:” KJV

Isaiah 46:9-11, “Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. 10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. 11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do” NIV

Daniel 4:33-40, “Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled. He was driven away from people and ate grass like cattle. His body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair grew like the feathers of an eagle and his nails like the claws of a bird. 34 At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever. His dominion is an eternal dominion; his kingdom endures from generation to generation. 35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"36 At the same time that my sanity was restored, my honor and splendor were returned to me for the glory of my kingdom. My advisers and nobles sought me out, and I was restored to my throne and became even greater than before. 37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven, because everything he does is right and all his ways are just. And those who walk in pride he is able to humble." NIV

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Canuckster1127 wrote:PL,

There is a great deal of logic involved with both your position and the others, as well there should be. Is logic the final word and value in terms of resolving this issue? You've indicated that you agree that there is an element of mystery in this area, rooted in the inscrutible nature of the immutable attributes of God by we who are finite (my words, not yours, but I think it reflects what I hear you saying.)

To your understanding, where does this enter into the picture and what are the implications of it in practical terms upon your theology?

I hope you don't mind me asking these questions in this manner. I'm not trying to manipulate you. Other involved in this conversation are welcome to answer it as well.

Thanks in adavance for any consideration you give to answering this.

Bart

Bart,

I'll include the answer to your questions in my big response. (If it gets any bigger, I may have to publish it) :)

A sneak preview for a few short answers.

"If we really look at Ezekiel 36:27 and say, Acts 4:27-28, we see both a contrast and a similarity. The contrast is that, in the Ezekiel passage, God causes His People to walk in His Statues while, in the Acts passage, God is actively working in the hearts of wicked men to whatever His Counsel had determined to be done. The similarity is that God is Sovereignly at work in both cases."

If you ask, did these people act according to their "free-will", the answer is "yes". These people freely did what they wanted to do. However, if you ask if these people could have overcome their own wicked natures and repented, contrary to God's Determined Counsel, the answer is "no". Here we see the proper limits of free-will. It is not libertarian. Yes, this is logical. The Bible appeals to logic, for we are even commanded to love God with all our minds.

What has been revealed to us in the Scriptures demands our logic, while accepting those mysteries that we cannot fully explain (such as the Trinity). When it comes to this "contradiction" between God's Sovereignty and Man's Libertarian Free Will, it is commonplace among today's believers to simply write it off as one of those mysteries, without even defending the idea that that libertarian free will even exists, beyond the commandments to "choose" and "repent", which will be dealt with later. According to what has been revealed to us in the Scriptures, Libertarian free will doesn't exist.

"Also, the "other side" of this debate is forced to redefine certain terms to get them to mean what they don't, such as predestination. According to them, predestination (which appears throughout the Bible) is contingent upon man's actions. This is, by definition, not predestination. The terms "predestination" and "contingency" are opposites. Events in history that are "contingent" are not "predestined". "Contigent Predestination" can no more exist than "cold heat" or "dry moisture"."

I'll go further into the implications in the completed piece.

God Bless,

PL

B.W.,

I'll address most of these points in my big response. However, I wanted to address this point while it is fresh.

"God is fair, he offers a chance to repent". People are free to accept or reject God's offer but God's final outcome — future tense will stand. God proves He is sovereign and can govern the universe rightly and perfectly and works through all things because God's wisdom carefully weighs and carefully deliberates all things accord to his plan, purpose, and goal. That is the meaning of Ephesians 1:11 Greek words translate counsel and will.

Point #1, Ephesians 1:11 says that He works all things according to the counsel of His will. That pretty much eliminates contingency and man's libertarian free will.

Point #2, God is fair, he offers a chance to repent. The two phrases are unrelated. First, God does offer a chance to repent. What He does not offer to everybody is the ability to repent. Second, If God were "fair" and nothing else, no one would have to opportunity to repent. This objection overlooks Original Sin and man's inherent guilt. The last thing that any human would ever truly want to do is appeal to God's "fairness" and "justice". If God were to merely operate in the realm of fairness, then no one would be saved. God could wipe out the entire human race and send everyone to Hell, and be totally fair in doing so. Mercy is the opposite of "fairness". Mercy, by definition, means that God does not give us what we deserve. Is God unfair? He sent Jesus to die for my sins. There has never been anything more "unfair" than that.

True repentance can only come via the New Birth. This is a supernatural event that man cannot accomplish.

God Bless,

PL

puritan lad wrote:B.W.,

I'll address most of these points in my big response. However, I wanted to address this point while it is fresh.

"God is fair, he offers a chance to repent". People are free to accept or reject God's offer but God's final outcome — future tense will stand. God proves He is sovereign and can govern the universe rightly and perfectly and works through all things because God's wisdom carefully weighs and carefully deliberates all things accord to his plan, purpose, and goal. That is the meaning of Ephesians 1:11 Greek words translate counsel and will.

Point #1, Ephesians 1:11 says that He works all things according to the counsel of His will. That pretty much eliminates contingency and man's libertarian free will.

Point #2, God is fair, he offers a chance to repent. The two phrases are unrelated. First, God does offer a chance to repent. What He does not offer to everybody is the ability to repent. Second, If God were "fair" and nothing else, no one would have to opportunity to repent. This objection overlooks Original Sin and man's inherent guilt. The last thing that any human would ever truly want to do is appeal to God's "fairness" and "justice". If God were to merely operate in the realm of fairness, then no one would be saved. God could wipe out the entire human race and send everyone to Hell, and be totally fair in doing so. Mercy is the opposite of "fairness". Mercy, by definition, means that God does not give us what we deserve. Is God unfair? He sent Jesus to die for my sins. There has never been anything more "unfair" than that.

True repentance can only come via the New Birth. This is a supernatural event that man cannot accomplish.

God Bless, PL

PL - why on earth cannot you see that I am not defending according to your old and now new term "libertarian free will?"

You stated:

puritan lad wrote:Calvinists do believe that man is a "free moral agent". God does not force man to sin. Man's sins are his own. He sins because He wants to. This, in the end, is the problem. All of man has been corrupted by the fall. Unregenerate man...

How can a man be a free moral agent [free will] unless God sovereignty decreed it so?

How can your statement line up with God predestining man to be wicked unless you are agreeing with my position?

Did God make Adam sin and thus become the real and true author of sin? Or did God design a way in which the sin remains the creature own by use of free moral agency, free will, independent reasoning that absolves God of this and proves His wisdom supreme? Which is it?

Looks like you may possibly coming around and seeing this?

Also - do not misquote me regarding God's even handedness, fairness, and justice. You are doing so again by inferring that is all I meant. Reference is to God's final Goal and how He arrives there and proves Himself all that He is to none other than Himself which in turn does affect those he created and their prodigy during the process.

So if I am understanding your assertion correctly - you believe God is not fair, is not evenhanded and has no justice by your comment?

Remember, God so loved the world that he gave his Son... Some will believe and some will not accept God's offer. God does not make anyone not accept this. This responsibility is the creatures own as you stated:

puritan lad wrote:Calvinists do believe that man is a "free moral agent". God does not force man to sin. Man's sins are his own. He sins because He wants to. This, in the end, is the problem. All of man has been corrupted by the fall. Unregenerate man...

How can a person be free moral agent if they cannot decide on his or her own?
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How can a person be free moral agent if they cannot decide on his or her own?

Good question! Either we have free will or God, even before the fall predestinated some to be saved and the rest to go to hell. Adam's disobedience was either predestinated or a convenient fall of the dice in God's already predestinated plan.

I agree with PL that no matter what God does it's right because He is God, but like you, BW, I have to question how this is reconciled with God's nature, character, and all of His perfect attributes.

Maybe our finite minds will not be able to comprehend it until we get to heaven.

B. W. wrote:PL - why on earth cannot you see that I am not defending according to your old and now new term "libertarian free will?"

B.W., if we are free to choose to believe the gospel by virtue of the way we are created, apart from the new birth and the work of the Holy Spirit, then we have libertarian free will. If God has not yet determined who would be His for eternity, and leaves it up to man to determine, then we have libertarian free will. It's as simple as that. Once you acknowledge that man's free will is limited within the work of God Himself, then you must deny they all men are "free to choose" righteousness. Either we are "free to choose" righteousness, or we are "slaves to sin". We cannot be both.

B. W. wrote:How can a man be a free moral agent [free will] unless God sovereignty decreed it so?

I've already explained this over and over (and I will again in the piece I'm preparing. I want to make it as thorough as possible, and answer all objections. Man is "free" to do what he wants to do. This makes man's sins his own. This "freedom" is the cause of, not the cure for, the sinful nature. Man sins willingly, but out of necessity. No mere human can go through life without sinning, no matter how much "freedom" he may claim for himself. Man is not "free" to change his own heart. This is the act of God alone.

B. W. wrote:How can your statement line up with God predestining man to be wicked unless you are agreeing with my position?

God certainly predestines and sovereignly works in the sinful acts of wicked men, as I have proven from Scripture over and over again.

B. W. wrote:Did God make Adam sin and thus become the real and true author of sin? Or did God design a way in which the sin remains the creature own by use of free moral agency, free will, independent reasoning that absolves God of this and proves His wisdom supreme? Which is it?

Either God predestined the Fall, or Jesus Christ was God's "Plan B". You decide. The Scriptures tell us that Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Was He slain for sin, or just the possibility of it?

With regard to God predestining the "final goal" without predestining the means for that goal, it is absolute nonsense and has no Scriptural foundation whatsoever. If you hold to this, I will ask for Scriptural references.

God is absolutely Sovereign in all things, including man's wickedness. God controls the steps of man (Jer. 10:23) God controls the words of man (Pro. 16:1) God controls the heart of a king (Pro. 21:1). In God “we live, and move, and have our being,” (Acts 17:28). He upholds “all things by the word of his power,” (Heb. 1:3). Not even a sparrow falls to the ground without the will of his Father (Matt. 10:29). God fashioned the days of man, before they ever existed (Psalm 139:16). God has wrought all our works in us. (Isa. 26:12; Phillipians 2:13) He works ALL things according to the counsel of His will (not ours) (Eph 1:11). God causes His people to walk in His statutes (Ezekiel 36:26-27). God predestines the sinful acts of wicked men as I have shown many times. God worked to bring about the jealousy, kidnapping, and lying of Joseph's Brothers (Gen 45:7). God did Absalom's incest openly before all Israel and before the sun (2 Sam. 12:11-12) God was working sovereignly through Satan and Job's enemies (Job 12:9). God was sovereignly at work in the most evil event that has ever occured, the crucifixion of His only Son. (Isaiah 53:10; Matt. 26:24; Acts 4:28; Acts 2:23; Acts 3:18; 1 Peter 2:8). God predestines both Salvation (Acts 13:48; Ephesians 1:4-5; Ephesians 1:11; 2 Timothy 1:9; 2 Thess. 2:13-14) and Destruction (Proverbs 16:4; Romans 9:23; Jude 1:7). God saves souls, and God hardens hearts. In the end, it is all God. He does it all. He works ALL things according to the counsel of His will, not just the end goal.

B.W. wrote:So if I am understanding your assertion correctly - you believe God is not fair, is not evenhanded and has no justice by your comment?

I believe that God is fair, but also merciful (not fair). Mercy is the opposite of fairness. Fairness and justice means that we get what we deserve. Mercy means that we do not. Remember that whenever we desire for someone to "get what they deserve".

B.W. wrote:Remember, God so loved the world that he gave his Son... Some will believe and some will not accept God's offer. God does not make anyone not accept this. This responsibility is the creatures own as you stated.

Again, we see the marked difference between us concerning the atonement. Your view is that of a "general ransom", or in your exact words "God's offer". In reality, your atonement was effective in saving nobody. Christ did not finish the work, but rather leaves it to us to get it done. What did Jesus Christ accomplish, according to the Scriptures, with His death?

...To “Seek and Save that which was lost” (Matthew 18:11)
...To “Save His People from their sins (Matthew 1:21)
...To “Save Sinners” (1 Timothy 1:15)
...To “destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery." (Hebrews 2:14-15)
...To “sanctify and cleanse His Church” (Ephesians 5:25-27)
...To “redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:4)
...To “sanctify Himself, that they (those who the Father had given Him) also might be sanctified through the truth." (John 17:17-19)
...To “[give] himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, (Galatians 1:4).
...“to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.” (Galatians 4:5).
...“that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.(2 Cor. 5:21)
...“By his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us....” (Hebrews 9:12)
...To “purge your consciences from dead works to serve the living God." (Hebrews 9:14)
...To “bear our sins:" (1 Pet. 2:24)
...To “Make and end of sins, reconciliation for iniquity, and bring in everlasting righteousness” (Daniel 9:24)
...To "bear our iniquities, and to have them laid upon him" (Isa. 53:5-12)
...To “purchase the church with His own blood” (Acts 20:28)
...To “lay down His life for His Sheep…to give them eternal life, and they shall never perish” (John 10: 11, 27-28)
...To “abolish death, and to bring life and immortality to light," (2 Timothy 1:10)
..."The blood of the new testament is shed for many, for the remission of sins." (Matthew 26:28)
..."By his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many, for he shall bear their iniquities," (Isaiah 53:11).

This is but a brief list of what Christ accomplished at Calvary, as there are many more. Where is the "free will" B.W.? You still haven't given a single scripture to support this idea. Did Jesus Christ accomplish the items in the above list? Did He do this for everybody? Did He succeed? Has death been abolished for everyone? Has every person on planet earth been justified? Has everyones sins been remitted? Has every person been sanctified and redeemed?

I would like for you to focus in on 2 Timothy 1:9-10 for a moment.

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us through Christ Jesus before the world was, But is now made manifest by that appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality unto light through the Gospel.” (2 Timothy 1:9-10)

Observations:

1.) We were saved, not according to our works (or wills), but according to His own purpose and grace.
2.) Grace was given us through Christ Jesus before the world was
3.) Since Grace is through faith in Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:8), and since Grace was given through Christ Jesus before the world was, than faith cannot be of ourselves, unless we were able to exercise that faith before the world was.
4.) Jesus' work on the cross “abolished death”. Whose death was abolished?

B.W. wrote:How can a person be free moral agent if they cannot decide on his or her own?

Because they are free to do what they want to do, which is to live a sinful, rebellious live against God. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Unless man is redeemed from his "free will" (willing slavery to sin); unless his will is changed by the Holy Spirit, he will be utterly lost.

God Bless,

PL

puritan lad wrote:

B. W. wrote:PL - why on earth cannot you see that I am not defending according to your old and now new term "libertarian free will?"

B.W., if we are free to choose to believe the gospel by virtue of the way we are created, apart from the new birth and the work of the Holy Spirit, then we have libertarian free will. If God has not yet determined who would be His for eternity, and leaves it up to man to determine, then we have libertarian free will. It's as simple as that. Once you acknowledge that man's free will is limited within the work of God Himself, then you must deny they all men are "free to choose" righteousness. Either we are "free to choose" righteousness, or we are "slaves to sin". We cannot be both.

PL - you still do not hear what I have been saying and still misquote my position.

I stated over and over again that man and women would never choose God unless God called and told them they could be saved.

God offers the choice in his call.

IT IS GOD'S CALL THAT SAVES. WITHOUT GOD'S CALL, THERE COULD BE NO CHOICE. YOU YOURSELF COULD NOT HAVE BEEN SAVED UNLESS YOU HEARD — IS THAT CORRECT OR NOT?

Hypothetical question: If you were pre-selected to be saved, ordained from the foundation of the world and never heard the gospel message — would you be saved?

God offers the choice — then how could it be man or woman's choice?

Why cannot you fathom that it is God himself who offers the choice?

PL — How did God design humanity? Did he not grant free moral agency, this free will, autonomy of reason and thought to humanity or not?

If not — then God is the author of sin and evil. If so, sin is the creatures own. Spare yourself mountain s of writing and answer this — yes or no.

God calls — PL — it is that simple — some hear and understand and some will not. We have Jesus' own words on this matter: Matthew 13:1-58, Matthew 22:1-22.

You claim to stand on the word of God but you are interpreting it in accord of the doctrines of men.

John 5:39-42 reminds me of you and your doctrine. What I teach points to Christ Jesus and will aid one in discovering a real living relationship with Christ as that is who I testify of. You testify of man's doctrine derived from man's interpreting the word of God.

Again — how did God design mankind — Adam and Eve? Did he make them free moral agents or not?

Let me repeat loud and clear — GOD DOES INDEED WORK SOVEREIGNLY IN THE ACTS OF HUMANTIY — NO ONE IS DENYING THIS OR TEACHING THAT GOD CANNOT DO THIS ON THIS THREAD AS YOU ARE FALSLY ACCUSING MANY OF DOING. CAN YOU THINK FOR YOURSELF?

Unless God leads one to repent — how can they? How can they unless they hear? God offers choice PL. Humanity has a responsibility to respond or not to that call. If not, God himself has denied himself as just.

God calls to all and leads — his goodness lead to repentance — this lines up with who Christ is and what the Father is like. Some will hear and accept and others will not. In this God's wisdom absolves God of any wrong doing. Are you denying that God has this kind of wisdom?

PL — before you write your discourse — we need to haggle over the definitions of God's Justice, God's Mercy, God's equity, God's Grace, God's righteousness, God's call, etc and etc.. It appears that you define these differently than what the bible really teaches and instead insert your doctrinal definitions into these words to justify your stance.

For example, there is more to God's Justice than only punishment — are you aware of this?
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B.W., I hear what you have been saying. The problem is that you are trying to say two opposite things, as you have done so here as well, ie.

God offers the choice in his call.

IT IS GOD'S CALL THAT SAVES

Which is it B.W.? Does God offer the choice, or does He save. If He merely offers the choice and gives us the ability to make that choice, then He doesn't save His people from their sins. He just gives them the ability to do it themselves through their free will. It's one or the other. Salvation, if not a completed work, is not salvation. Either Jesus finished the work and quickens whom He will, or He leaves the finishing of the work to us to decide. How we were created is irrelevant. We are fallen and condemned already. Your theology throws the whole Doctrine of the New Birth out of whack.

B.W. wrote:Hypothetical question: If you were pre-selected to be saved, ordained from the foundation of the world and never heard the gospel message — would you be saved?

Yes, unless God can fail...

"I form the light and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

(If I keep this up, I'll have my entire discourse already posted here...)

puritan lad wrote:Which is it B.W.? Does God offer the choice, or does He save. If He merely offers the choice and gives us the ability to make that choice, then He doesn't save His people from their sins. He just gives them the ability to do it themselves through their free will. It's one or the other. Salvation, if not a completed work, is not salvation. Either Jesus finished the work and quickens whom He will, or He leaves the finishing of the work to us to decide. How we were created is irrelevant. We are fallen and condemned already. Your theology throws the whole Doctrine of the New Birth out of whack.

A CEO approached a young business associate and said to him, "John, I'm offering you the chance to become the CEO of this company when I retire next year. The position is yours for the taking, and I'm sure you can handle the position."
"But I'm not capable of running the company," John replies.
"Of course not, but I'll provide you with all the training you need. I've already got everything lined up - your office, secretary, account managers, and a personalized tutorial to get you up to speed by the big event."
"Gee . . . thanks, Dad!"

Hmm - so I guess John becomes a CEO (and a successful one) by his own power. He most definitely earned the position and has nobody to thank but himself. Poor Dad, being enslaved to the will of John . . .

It's great to have God for a Father isn't it. Too bad that not everyone can call Him Father. You can only feel for the children whose Father is the Devil (John 8:44). God even "Lays a stumbling block to make men fall" (Romans 9:33) and "sends strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." (2 Thess. 2:11).

Of course, one would argue that this makes God unfair. Paul has a good answer for that, but I'll bet you already know what that is.

Uhm . . . not so hot with intepreting parables, are you PL? What's the main point? I bet BW would have no problem seeing it.