Evidence for God from Science

Part Eleven

Before the Beginning

Often we hear of God's self sufficiency; meaning that God is completely self sufficient has no beginning or end, has no need of anything, not even us, and takes care of himself without needing of anyone else. The Lord did not have to create. Since He created us, God Almighty does not need anything we can contribute to him. Yet, he did create us as well as the angels and the entire universe. Why?

The 'why' is only known to God alone; however, in Revelations 4:11 it reveals something that may pertain to why: 'for thy pleasure they are and were created.'

The King James Versions use the word pleasure to translate the Greek word 'thelēma.' 'Thelēma' can also be translated as will, choice, inclination, desire, determines, wishes; other bible versions translate 'thelēma' using the word 'will.'

“Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure (will) they are and were created.” Revelations 4:11 (KJV)

You can conclude that the Lord created because He is God and through His creation shine who He is and what He is like in what He created. In other words, He reveals his nature, character, and power in and over what he created: "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power..."

For example: since God is a God of the living - the Living God — he created living beings. Since he is just — he created beings with a reasoning intelligence that would be unfettered so that He can shine His all powerful Nature by being able to work through all things. Since He is a God that loves, he grants beings with intelligence to also be able to love and have actions guided by what one loves. Love nurtures and raises another so that they come into thier own.

For whatever purposes God had in mind creating humanity, it appears in the Genesis account, that the Lord designed humanity to take care of His precious creation called earth as well as we taking care of each other as a reflection of Himself. Bible also reveals that God test what he makes and by testing He refines things.

From Revelation 21 we can see that his goal is a New Heavens and Earth, (hint: a new creation - 2 Co 5:17) that will be free of sin and death. For now, the stage is set to arrive there and in the process of getting there God demonstrates that He will arrive at this point without violating the nature, character, and power of His perfect Love, Justice, Righteousness, Mercy, Grace, Equity, Holiness, etc and etc, to Himself in all what he created.

Who nowadays speaks on God's behalf?

Elihu said in the book of Job, “…Bear with me a little, and I will show you, for I have yet something to say on God's behalf. I will get my knowledge from afar and ascribe righteousness to my Maker…” Job 36:1-3 ESV

When one learns to look at how God sees things and ascribe righteousness to our Maker, then, some of the toughest questions posed by people concerning hell, heaven, the afterlife, the existence of evil, etc will find an answer.

Our human sense of what is right, just, merciful, gracious, fair, perfect, loving, are not God's. As we have seen, His ways are way beyond what our minds can fully comprehend, yet, the Lord grants us a glimpse of who He is to those that take the time to continually ask, seek, and knock. The answers to the toughest of questions are found in who He is. This silences all human opinion, objections, and doctrines based on humanity as the measuring rod of truth.

Profound Truth is found in God alone. Jesus declared He is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6-7). Doctrine must be measured against who God is as God chose to reveal Himself in the Bible. If doctrine fails this test, it is false. If it passes, then it is true. True doctrine lines up with God's nature, character, and power. The Lord revealed who He is in a book easy to find so we know what to look for and not get lost seeking other ways. God even fulfills prophecy contained in this book to let us know it is true.

People have much to say to justify their own behalf. Like, that it would be best that God would not hold fallen humanity to account in an eternal hell but rather mercifully annihilate such into non-being. Or the opposite, just let all into heaven after a fiery cleansing bath. All these appeal to justify what is right for man based on what man thinks what would be the right thing for God to do with them.

Such persons justify themselves as why God cannot dare decree the eternal recompense that the Bible boldly proclaims God will do. It is tragic that they fail to note that truth is not based on them, or how cleverly they distort bible verses and word meanings, but rather on who God is. They do not take into account what is right for God to do.

For if God violated (which by the way is impossible for him to do) his own nature, character, and power; then He would fail on being what He is like. This will not happen. When bad doctrine comes along that misstates God's own nature, character, and power it is easy to spot as it justifies man and not God.

Think and Ponder

So when you think of justice, do not think only of the legality of Justice, but rather what Just is from God's perspective as well as Just for what He created. For example, would it be Just to deny liberty of reason and intelligence? Such denial would not prove God as Just to who he created nor would God prove able to all powerfully work through all things. For the creature so designed, it is Just for them to honor God with their reasoning and intelligence and not abuse these gifts by denying God through rebellion. Yes, God does indeed test the sons of men: that is Just!

When you think of God's Love, do not think in terms of love that is restricted by fear and pain and thus weak and cannot do much accept be mushy; think of a Love that cherishes, nurtures, letting one come into their own. Such Love has respect, even if coming into ones own is negative and against you, you are slow to anger. Grant them ample time to return to you, provide even the very means for them too return, and if they do not, such love honors their decision but will ban them away to where they can do no harm.

Such Love honors the gift of life. Though we are mortal, we are also spiritual beings. Mortal death leads to the spiritual afterlife. So if evil is great in this world, God will slay those that are evil and judges them and sends them away to a place of containment. Doing so, he still honors the life he gave. To us, mortal death is final and we can think it unloving for God to send someone away eternally but they came into their own as evil. God gave them many a chance to recant even foreknowing they would not, He still offered and provided the means to return to him and their senses. They reject this of there own accord.

Yet God's Love shines through by sending them away as Love knows it cannot force them to comply or change — that is not Love but rather rape — as well as violates God's own justice He granted to the creature to come into their own. This kind of Love is way beyond what our mortal intellect can fully comprehend. Such Love that honors those that come into their own through rejecting, hating, abusing you and your goodness and then by not annihilating one into non-being as well as grant them a place where they can live without your protection and love is indeed profound.

Examples form the Above

People shout without thinking: “That a loving God would never send one to eternal damnation in a place as horrifying as Hell! That's not love!”

Does this statement really line up with God's character conforming to who he is and what he is like as described in the bible? Is God slow to anger, patient, and kind? Does not the love of God offer choice to return to him or reject him, freely, and not use force? Does not his Love reflect his justice profound by honoring ones wishes, even when such desires are wrong, by being slow to anger? Does he not prove kindness by causing the crops to grow to feed an ungrateful nation who has rejected Him?

God's love does not rejoice in wrongdoing but rejoices in the truth of justice. What kind of love would love be if it did not honor another's wishes to be left alone? What kind of love would force its own way upon another? What kind of love would take back the gifts lavished upon another? Certainly not the Love that God has. That's a hallmark of God's kind of love.

Yet people say, “God would prove he loves and is kind if he just converts us in the afterlife knowing none of us would ever desire a place like hell!”

Why should love be blind for your cause? A person remains uncommitted to the Lord, want nothing to do with him in this mortal life, and in the next expect him to welcome him/her with opens arms! What height of arrogance, pride, one would have to expect such a reception! Love is not blind. It rejoices not in wrong doing.

If people wanted nothing to do with the Love that God has now in this mortal life, which produces everlasting lasting change, what makes you think they would desire this in the next? God rejects those that reject him. Love does the same. It can only take so much of being abused for another's own gain. Love takes no pleasure in such wrongdoing.

Yet, others chant — “A loving God would never send one to eternal ruin in a place as horrifying as Hell! That's not love! He would annihilate them into non-being as that proves loves mercy.”

What kind of love would love be if it exterminated a person into non-being? Certainly not the kind of love that honors the gift of life which proves God is the God of the living and not the dead. Definitely not the kinds of love that cannot keep its word or the kind that does not demonstrate just respect by letting each person come into their-own and honoring their wishes. God keeps his word and does not renege on his gifts. Neither would love.

God's love pleads and woos. It seeks to engage one's reason and freely win one's trust, not to force one to love in return but rather seeks to romance one back to God. God's kind of love is firm and fair. It will not exterminate into non-being but rather prepares a place justly for those that prove beyond all reasonable doubt that they do not want God at all.

Love is slow to anger but when it is aroused, it banishes the insulter and abuser of God's loving goodness and love would banish such away from the light of love into the eternal darkness they so crave. God with equity judges all people of the earth.

How great and deep is the Love of God that he honors the creature's desire and fashions a place fitting for their crimes? That is mercy, kindness profound. It protects the meek and downtrodden from harm of sin in heaven by keeping the abusers contained in hell. At the same time, his love shows the abuser respect by not annihilating them into non-being by granting them what they desire; life without God, thus, proving God's love supreme.

So what is fair to God? How can God be God if he exterminates one into non-being or simply lets into heaven those who hate him? How would that prove the absolute justice of love if God denies who he is by unjust means?


To be continue in Part Twelve...

By B. W. Melvin — know as B. W. on this thread
Author of: A Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion
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Part Twelve


What about??

People ask, “What all those people who never hear of the gospel, are of other faiths - from the lost forgotten tribes in the isolated areas of the world to the those in all countries? They would never desire a place like hell! How can God be loving if he sent those whom never heard there?”

To answer such questions requires the use of the bible as the standard by measuring and gauging the answer as what it reveals about who God is. If you do not like the bible, then all I ask is to just listen. The bible is not some ancient outdated book. It is a remarkable book that transcends time. It engages your reason by challenging you.

Why could not God leave a record of who he is and is like as well as how he communicates with human beings and then confirms it with fulfilled prophecy at a 100 percent rate! Please all I can ask, is to keep an open mind about the bible - not a narrow rejecting point of view.

The Foreknowing Sovereign Will

People make much ado about God hardening Pharaohs heart. In doing so, they make the mistake of having God appear as purely arbitrary and down right un-fair for hardening someone's heart against their will. This ideology goes against the nature, character, and power of God. Let me explain and in doing so, we'll come back to the question at hand and you'll discover the answer on your own.

In the first chapter of the book of Jeremiah the Lord speaks to Jeremiah and reveals a profound truth about God's Nature: He foreknows all before anything ever was. This is brought out in verse five by the words translated, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.' God stated that he knew Jeremiah. The word translated 'knew' contains these basic shades of meaning: to know completely, entirely, intimately, know everything, to know by experience, full and complete knowing.

Jeremiah 1:5, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations." ESV

God knew intimately everything about Jeremiah before he ever was. What did God know about Jeremiah? Before sharing this, please note that if God never spoke to humanity, calling to us as He did to Adam and Eve, “Where are you? (Gen 3:9), where would we be? Jeremiah would remain unknown today, if God would not have spoken to him that day. If God never would have spoken to Abram (Gen 12:1); then Abram would have remained Abram and never have become Abraham. Faith would never be.

Hebrews 1:1, “Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets…”

If God refrained from speaking, calling out, sending his word to humanity, then, humanity would have remained lost forever under the curse of sin. No good works we can ever do would ever earn our way back into God's favor. Isaiah 64:6 tells us as well as Paul in Romans 3:10, there are none righteous. Jeremiah 17:9-10 states the human heart is ill with sin. We cannot save ourselves. Therefore, without God calling to humanity, God's own intervention, all humanity would remain lost forever.

Does this mean God is a slave to human choice? Absolutely not! For this fact, His call alone makes choice possible when before there was none! The intuitive remains with God, not man; it remains His calling, and it is still by His word that our faith comes by (Rom 10:17). Because of God's great Justice and profound Love, God calls sending His Word to a lost humanity which provides the means to return to Him (John 1:1-14).

It is because of this alone, that a person will either hear His call or reject His call back to him. God knows beforehand if a person will hear or not and do with such hearing as he deems best. He knows all. This proves God's Love and Justice as He provides the means for a choice to be made which also honors the gift of life and intelligence graciously granted humanity. Either they will hear and accept His offer or they will not. God is awesome and to be greatly to be praised! He is good to all, even to the ungrateful. With equity He will judge all people of the earth.

God foreknows everything, based on the fact that He alone decided to call, knows before any of us ever were, who will hear and who will reject. This provides choice when there was none before. From this knowledge God can shape and fashion every person for whatever purposes He may have: with absolute equity, justice, mercy, love, righteousness, etc, keenly displayed.

From this, as Acts 17:26 states, God places people in groups of similarity and decides their boundaries and times to live: “And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place…” Acts 17:26, ESV

Pharaoh

Back to Pharaoh, God harden his heart, true, but did you realize that Pharaoh was born with a harden sin nature same as we all were (Romans 3:9)? Pharaoh was no innocent victim of an arbitrary God! Next, did you not know that in Exodus 3:19 that God stated he already knew Pharaoh would not listen to God? It was not until Exodus 4:21 that God stated he would harden his heart — when? - Note Exodus 7:13.

God foreknew before this person was ever born that he would reject God's call. God raised him up as Pharaoh, for that time and era, knowing that even if God in physical form would tap dance on Pharaoh's head; Pharaoh would reject God's words, his call. So why not make him the perfect spectacle in which to use as God did? In Romans 9:11-24 notice the use of the word translated 'calls' in verse 11 and 24.

Is God unjust for foreknowing things about us before we were ever born? Then shaping us accordingly? Assigning our boundaries and times in which we live? How could God be unjust in this or unfair? How shall the clay pot say to the potter why have you made me thus? There is no unfairness with God who foreknows everything and yet still lets a sinner live. Such is the foreknowing sovereign will of God!

What about those who have never heard?

Job 34:21-23, "For his (God's) eyes are on the ways of a man, and he sees all his steps. 22 There is no gloom or deep darkness where evildoers may hide themselves. 23 For God has no need to consider a man further, that he should go before God in judgment.” ESV

God sees all our ways before we were ever born. He can do with us as he wills. His will calls out to us. He sent his word to humanity providing the means for us to return to Him which gives us a new heart (Jer 31:31-34, Ezk 11:19, Ezk 36:26) that will be forever changed!

He knows also who will reject him before they ever were! His great justice and love also proven by allowing them to live, and reject him! How could an all-knowing God not know these things? He lets all come into their-own, even foreknowing who will respond to his call and who will not. Therefore, he sets groups of people in boundaries with common ideas and sets a person's place in the world accordingly.

He sets those that will never respond to his call in time, in place, how so ever He so wills. The most ancient of times before Christ are described as dark, brutish, and evidence of humanities inhumanity are in found in the archeological records. God can dispense and place people in the times where they are so best suited to keep a species alive so that their future progeny foreseen will be made righteous by God's call (Gen 6:1-10).

Humanities sense of justice would be to have none brutish born at all in complete disregard to future generations' unseen — unknown - unborn. When humanities numbers were small in the world, the most-wicked lived. In the later days, the most rejecters of God will manifest. He denies them not the gift of life — such is the nature of His great Love graciously granting all to come into his or her own. He places in boundaries and makes nations just or unjust by the people that inhabit.

What about those who never heard the gospel nowadays? He places people where they are best suited, honoring his gift of life and reason to them. God will send missionaries to such for theirs progenies sake or theirs too. Who knows who will hear and who will not? God is best judge of a person, not we. God desires His people to bear His Call to the ends of the earth!

God still sends His word. He makes His ways known to them in various ways (Romans 1:20): sin is truly the creatures own. It maybe possible that God may even grant a very-very-very rare few a special grace born by some special revelation but too you, now, who have heard, God's special grace is through Christ alone.


To be continued in Part Thirteen….

By B. W. Melvin — know as B. W. on this thread
Author of: A Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion
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Whoops, I just noticed that I left out the last few paragraphs by mistake…Sorry about that!

Please add these to where Part Twelve ended in the above frame.

Last concluding paragrahs of Part Twelve:

It comes down for us to trust God that He is wiser than we are and is perfectly capable of doing the best possible thing, even for those that have never heard the gospel. This does not mean such that never heard will enter in with God in heaven but rather that God knows they never would accept him. God still shows them honor by honoring his gift of life and intelligence to them even when foreknowing their end. From this, I can grasp why Jesus wept over Jerusalem.

This maybe hard to comprehend that God honors his own gift of life by not denying them life and letting them live even when he foreknows they'll never accept him. Yet, He does foreknow from their progeny who will not reject him. There is no wrong doing on God's part. So please do not fall into a trap and accuse God of being unjust. God granted them life as well as offered chances to them by various means just as Paul reveals in Romans 1:19-20:

“For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse…” Romans1:19-20, ESV

The point is this; there are no righteous perfect human beings in this world. We are all marred by sin and rebellion. For a person to use the following statement to justify rejecting God based on the assumptions that people are basically sweat and innocent and God unfair simply do not understand human nature bent on rebellion against God:

“ I can't accept a God who can sentence eternal recompense those who never heard the gospel and are of other faiths. That's unfair…

They reject God who graciously let's people live even when foreknowing their life course, who acts justly toward them, snail slow to anger, show's forth who he is in creation to them, behaves properly toward them, causes all to understand we all are not as pure and innocent as we all think. Such reject God who does everything to gain one's attention to return to him! People reject God's call in order to keep rebellion alive in their hearts. God test the hearts.

People do use others as an excuse to remain as they are — in rebellion against God. Please do not do as they. You have heard the gospel that offers the way to return to God. If anything, please understand how good and gracious God really is to all. What can God who is perfect in all his ways do? Deny existence to them as well as their future progeny who will return to God? Would that really be just? God's ways are not our own.

To be continued in Part Thirteen….

My prayer for you that read is that you learn....

God Bless!
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Part Thirteen

(Warning — this part is a highly philosophical in nature and designed to make you think on your own; it maybe hard to understand if one is not used to this style. If you know your bible, you'll see scripture themes interwoven throughout.)

Lively Debate

I have been often confronted with a snide remark when speaking to certain people bent on discrediting Christianity. The irony of it was I once used the same comment to bash Christians before coming to Christ many years ago. You may have also heard the same comment and in fact on a TV commercial advertising the Movie — 'Religious' Bill Mahar used it too:

Why doesn't God just exterminate the devil and be done with it — What's he waiting for?

The answer is simple: After this, you and I would next in line...is that what you want?

This usually stops such person in their tracks and depending on how ornery they are they may answer with other sarcastic remarks. No matter the direction this may take you can come back to the same question you answered theirs with in various ways that at the very least causes such to think. By answering a question with a question an answer can be found. So for purpose of our discussion here, I would follow through by adding the following:

Why not use the devil to sort out those that will rebel and who will not instead? God would prove he is gracious to all as well a true God of the living who indeed keeps his word and honors his own gifts, even to the rebellious, by not exterminating them. Why not use such to sort the wheat from the chaff so at a future date in time, rebellion would be done away with without any violation of trust God so graciously gives.

In this way, at a future date and time, you can put away all those proving rebellious in a common area, justly, perfectly, correctly, without violating any gift of life, intelligence, granted them to use freely as they so choose. You as God would prove yourself one who indeed keeps his word. The guilty could never accuse you of ever being unjust to them in any shape or form.

So, you want to be next in line if God exterminated the devil today?

Answers found in Questions

In Genesis chapters one through three, it tells us God gave humanity a gift of life, the ability to reason independently, and exercise dominion responsibly. If God denied these to humanity, or the angels, how could the Lord truly be all powerful? The hallmark of being all powerful is the ability to work through all things impeccably to reach a preordained goal (Revelations 21:1).

If God denied liberty to those he created with intelligence would not that make his love conditionally based on forced compliance? Would not such denial disprove God's love as being a love that let's each come into their own? Disprove the liberty of love to freely love in return? Would it not prove God unable to cherish and nurture?

It was by God's love and mercy that He warned humanity's first parents of rebellion as well as not denying them even the liberty to do so. That's love extreme! That's justice profound! That's God being all powerful in all ways! Proving that He is! How could such denials honestly prove God absolutely just to himself by denying perfect justice to whom he creates? God cannot deny himself.

Main Point: Sealing the Deal…

Fallen humanity cries out — “if I were God, I would have made creation perfectly to begin with... as that is what being all powerful is all about...!”

What makes you think that God is not doing so now, in the very process of making all things new? That we are not living midst that divine creative snap right now? God does everything justly, rightly, and perfectly. Such work as this, from creations stand point of time would be agonizingly slow. Far be it for the Almighty to pervert justice. We deny these things in our creation. God does not.

God has a goal as He so stated in Revelations 21:1-4. If the Lord denied the ability to reason independently, denied liberty of thought, and denied the exercise dominion responsibly to those whom he created with intelligence, God would prove himself unable to all powerfully be able to work through all things justly, righteously, etc.

Even though God knows all things beforehand, he demonstrates his love, mercy, goodness, faithfulness, justice, righteousness, etc, by still letting individuals make their own choices, even the dire ones that create evil.

Yes, God knows everything beforehand, even those that will reject him. It is difficult for people to understand how God can really be just since he foreknows all things. Does not the bible tell us that the Lord fashions vessels for honor and dishonor? Would not this mean He is arbitrary? If arbitrary, how can that be really just?

Vessels of Honor and Dishonor

God fashions vessels of honor and dishonor in a manner that does not violate his own nature, character, and power. Despite foreknowing all things, he still calls to all people everywhere to return to him in various ways and means. It is his call that makes choice possible. He cannot help but foreknow the very outcome that his own call will have on people because he is after all, God. How can one fault God on this?

The amazing thing is that God still allows those foreknown that will reject him to still live to reject him. He denies them not life, not liberty, not reason, not intelligence. He places them in eras of time, within boundaries, and can even place in national groups that share certain commonalties. How can God be unjust in this? If he denied them life, liberty, reason, intelligence, how could he remain just? God's integrity will not let him deny himself.

God said to humanities first parents to procreate and elsewhere the bible reveals that God desires godly offspring. God honors His own word spoken, even foreknowing that some offspring will deny him completely. He still honors his word. If not, you and I would not be here. Are you that just?

God works through all things to achieve his goal. God all powerfully works through all things proving He is God. He offers redemption and forgiveness. God even respects those that reject his offer by fashioning a place for them to live eternally in. He can hold them to account with eternal consequences because sin is the creatures own doing, not his. If God arbitrarily made one a vessel of dishonor, then God would be the author of sin and if the author of sin, then God would not true to himself by any means.

People like to cite King David's sin and his son Absalom sin as proof of God arbitrariness. However, King David sought God; Absalom sought the counsel of men. Both courses were foreknown by God who denied neither of their own abilities of reason. Sin was their own doing, not God's. God's call to King David softened his heart. The other sought unwise counsel to sin. God simply exposed this in the sight of all.

It is because God is all knowing that he can make vessels of honor and dishonor. He does so without violating his gift of life to them, nor denies them the ability to make their own decision regarding who they'll serve, despite foreknowing ahead of time those that will reject him. Are you that just and even handed? You cannot accuse God of wrongdoing simply because he foreknows how to make one either a vessel of honor or dishonor.

Again, it is his calling out to humanity that makes choice possible and his word will either soften or harden the clay. To make gold and silver pure you apply heat to remove the dross. The dross remains dross. Those purified during this life by God's hand remain his treasure and will abide with him. Those that are dross are discarded to their own place. Love does not rejoice in wrong doing. God test the heart.

Eternity Matters

After this mortal life ends, the eternal begins either with God or without. To let one who learned that sin pays into heaven would teach those that enter thus that there are no lasting consequences for sin. They would abuse God's goodness again as they did so in their mortal life. If the devil spent one thousand years in hell and will not recant or be redeemed — what makes one think they could? (Revelations 20:2, 7)

In their eternal state, a person will not change due to the how God honors Himself, His gifts, His word. Such persons would corrupt heaven for their own gain by manipulating God's own goodness. This God will not let happen again (Ezekiel 28:13-19).

God honors the gift of life he graciously grants. In this mortal life alone is when and where true lasting change is possible. God is that just to change us while we still can be changed and molded! Children can be shaped and molded (Luke 18:17, 1 John 3:10). Whose child are we?

The life we live prepares us for the one to come either to live in darkness justly banished forever from the presence of God or live in the eternal light with God forever (Revelations 22:5). Now, in this mortal life, is change possible; not in the next that seals the deal.

If a person refuses and rebels in this mortal life, they would do so in heaven because they learned how to abuse the good nature, character, and power of God. Such abuse is the true workings of sin. When the wicked die, they come face to face with God's all knowingness and judgment. Confronted with how just and perfect his ways are truly are. They stand without excuse as God grants them a place to live justly reaping what they have sown.

In essence, God grants them their true hearts desire, life without God. To exterminate life into a non-existing state would make God unjust to His own nature, character, and power. He will not deny himself. God with equity will judge all people. He is a God of the living and not the dead. Great is the mystery of the living God who is all knowing, all powerful, all wise! More than I can write or expound.

On God's Behalf

The Lord — all his ways are perfect. Our ways are not. So why do so many decry that God is so justly unfair when it is in reality our ways that are so unjustly fair. Humanity finds it easier to blame God for our own abuses.

The Lord proved His own good nature and kindness by not wiping us all off the face of the earth in complete non-existence as revealed in Genesis 6:1-10, and Job 34:12-15 and by sending Jesus Christ so that we may look to the Lord and live. People abuse God's goodness and grace everyday. The Apostle Paul wrote of this in Romans chapter One. So how can God's wrath be unjust?

God granted us all his gift of life and the responsibility to live it wisely. He granted us intelligence and reason as well as the ability to love. God's ways are not ours. He honors his gifts and callings with impartiality.

Therefore, he holds to account those that abuse his gifts, abuse his nature, abuse his character, abuse his ways, eternally. There is no unfairness with God! He offers all a chance to repent and return to Him in this mortal life and for this many shout, “God is so unfair, so unjust!”

So who is really unfairly unjust?

"Yet your people say, 'The way of the Lord is not just,' when it is their own way that is not just.” Ezekiel 33:17, ESV

Often people use the excuse of Hell as a reason to reject God without ever investigating this matter from God's perspective. God is absolutely just, righteous, fair, in all his ways! There is no wrong doing on God's part. He remains true to Himself proving that He is God.

Read Ezekiel 18:20-32 soon and notice verse 23, “Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?”

That is the Gospel — turn to the Lord and live. He takes no pleasure in the death of people enslaved to their sin nature and would rather them to turn back to him so he can change them to really live! His offer is free. An individual can accept it or reject it willingly. However, not all will accept his offer. That is a tragic fact. It causes me to weep...

To Sum it all up

To make them that reject God non-exist is truly not just to them or God. Doing so disproves God is a God of the living — the living God. To change an unwilling mind by force or forcing them to Love God would not be just. Doing so would disprove God's love and mercy as true. To make them live with God whom they reject would not be just or fair to them, God, or those that will live with God. Doing so would require Him to deny his own absolute ways of justice and righteousness profound.

So what can the Lord do other than send such rejecters to a place fashioned to eternally contain, banished from the life of God forever as they desired proven by how they lived life now as rejecters of God's kind offer.

John 4:14, “…but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life. "


Some Last thoughts…To be continue in Part Fourteen and concluded


By B. W. Melvin — know as B. W. on this thread
Author of: A Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion
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Part Fourteen: Last Installment

A word about the Bible…

Isaiah 1:18, "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool…”

The Lord left us an incredible book that reveals who he is and what he is really like. From its pages, it engages us to reason with the Lord so that we may know him and learn love. God left us a book that reveals who he is and what he is like. He did so using the most realistic of means so that we could find him more easily. It is a book that speaks to the human soul by engaging reason.

Unfortunately, there are those that misuse the bible to silence reason. Such persons use scriptures stacked upon other verses and change word meanings to support this stacked deck. In other words, they tell you what to think. This is done to support human opinion and emotionalism. It throws reason out the window. The doctrines taught by annihilationism and universalism attempt just that: lead the witness.

The bible draws out who God is according to his nature, character, and power. It reveals who God is by engaging your reason to ask questions and raise objections. From this, the Lord begins to speak through the pages of the bible and answers your questions as well as assuages your objections by measuring these against who God is. Who God is will answer the hardest of questions. The scriptures causes' your reason to be engaged not silenced. Many do not want you to reason, just accept without question.

The purpose of this series was to engage your reason so you can think for yourself. Through this, may the Lord begin to reason with you! My goal is to point you to Christ alone and not towards me as an expert.

I will begin by asking questions. These questions are 'scripture soaked' questions. Then I'll end by making a few points. I left out many bible references in these questions so that you may begin to reason with the Lord on your own as well as demonstrate how scripture speaks to you. You will be required to think for yourself and draw your own conclusions. God wants us to reason together with Him.


Let's Begin

So when it comes to the doctrines of annihilationism and universalism do these fit who God is? Can these be reconciled with who God is according to his nature, character, and power? You may think yes but his ways are not ours as you will soon see.

God is the Living God the Bible boldly proclaims. Jesus revealed that God is a God of the living and not the dead. How could God violate his own standard of life? By doing so would he not be denying himself as the living God who is the author of life? Does the bible teach that God places eternity in the heart in direct reference that speaks of 'what God does lasting forever'? Whose image likeness was humanity fashioned? Is God eternal? How could humanity not also be?

Did God design Adam and Eve to grow old and die before the fall ever happened? If so, how could God call creation good? Does not the bible tell us instead that death entered the world through sin and not by designed old age decay? What does this tell you about the Living God the bible proclaims?

Did not God honor his gift of life after the fall of humanity so that the spirit of man either goes upward to God or downward into the earth where the beasts reside? Would this not prove God honors life and his gifts without revoke? Prove him indeed — the living God?

If God annihilates into non-being, what would that make him out to be? Would he not deny his own life giving nature as well as be on par with an abortionist? How could there be sanctity of life if God is not the living God who honors life way beyond what we think as just?

What is justice without consequence? Does not the bible teach that God is a God of justice? How could it be just to those annihilated into non-being by robbing them of life? Does God steal? If He stole, how then could he be just and without iniquity? How could God render to each one according to his/her own works if He annihilated into non-being?

Isaiah 3:11. "Woe to the (wicked) iniquitous! - It shall be ill with him, for what his hands have dealt out shall be done to him.”

Have you murdered and killed someone? Most people have not. So how could annihilation be rendering what our hands have dealt out shall be done to us if we have not done so? How could that be just?

Nahum 1:3, “The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked…” KJV

Job 34:10-12, "… far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong. 11 For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him. 12 Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice."


Lesson Continues...

Deuteronomy 32:3-4, “For I will proclaim the name of the LORD; ascribe greatness to our God! 4 "The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he."

Was the serpent annihilated when he rebelled against God? Did Adam and Eve see and hear the serpent in the Garden? Would they not be convinced by this 'seeing' that they would get away with disobeying God as the serpent apparently did and not die — cease to exist? How could they non-exist in death if the serpent still was? They could see and hear that they would not be exterminated into non-being. So they both partook.

What does this all say about God? He honors life, the gift of life he gave so that he does not annihilate into non-being as that would violate who he is and cause him to revoke the gift of life as well as cause him to deny his words — 'let us make...' So would God deny himself, his gift, if he denied life — life itself in who he created?

How could God be God if he did so? This is contrary to how he reveals himself in the bible. It would cause God to deny his words spoken to humanity in the garden that granted us all with the ability to reason with intelligence and exercise dominion responsibly (Gen 1:26-30, Gen 2:15, Isaiah 55:10, Proverbs 30:5, Psalms 12:6). God would be disingenuous even to the rebellious if he denies his word and gift of life to them.

“Far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong” (Job 34)

Romans 11:29, “…For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”

If he took his breath away — life would cease as Job 34:14-15 states: “If he should set his heart to it and gather to himself his spirit and his breath, 15 all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust."

Is that what you crave? Do you really despise God's profound sense of Justice and seek to change it?

Job 34:16-17, "…If you have understanding, hear this; listen to what I say. 17 Shall one who hates justice govern? Will you condemn him who is righteous and mighty…”

“...26 He strikes them for their wickedness in a place for all to see, 27 because they turned aside from following him and had no regard for any of his ways…30 that a godless man should not reign, that he should not ensnare the people. 31 "For has anyone said to God, 'I have borne punishment; I will not offend any more; 32 teach me what I do not see; if I have done iniquity, I will do it no more'? 33 Will he then make repayment to suit you, because you reject it? For you must choose, and not I; therefore declare what you know.” Job 34:26-33

Isaiah 26:10, “If favor is shown to the wicked, he does not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness he deals corruptly and does not see the majesty of the LORD.”

Would not God rather design a place where the rebellious can live forever without God as they so desired? This would not deny his gift of life nor cause him to deny his word to anyone. He proves himself God absolutely Just by doing so and honoring life he gave and the word he speaks.


Such a Place

Does the bible tell us that God did indeed make such a place for the rebellious? Is it described as eternal or temporal? What did Jesus say to those on his left? What did he reveal? Was it not such a place? Or, what about Isaiah did he not also reveal this place? “They will be gathered together as prisoners in a pit; they will be shut up in a prison, and after many days they will be punished.” Isaiah 24:22

Jesus' words ring true: Matthew 25:46, “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ESV

Eternal is used in same sentence in same structure and tense that applies to both terms equally. To say eternal punishment is not eternal but rather temporal would also mean eternal life is not eternal and equally temporal. So why should God be proven a lair to support the doctrine of men? Eternal means forever and ever in both cases, if not Eternal then eternal life is not eternal as God promise it to be. Do you really desire to deny the Justice of Almighty God?

After dying — what comes next? Is in not judgment? What happens after this? Will the spirit of a person go up to God or back down into the earth where the beast reside — that prison to await a final reckoning? Next, why does the bible speak of the departed as being shades that are alive, cognizant, hearing and speaking and feeling after mortal death? Annihilating life into non-being is contrary to God's nature of being a living God who reneges on no gift he gave. Are you alive? Can you reason? Exercise dominion in areas of your life? Do you not partake of these very gifts everyday?

"The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he." (Deut 32)


What then of Jesus warnings…

Mark 9:47-48, “And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.' ESV

Jesus describes that self maiming would be more preferable than going into an eternal Hell where the works of ruin does not die. However, self maiming cannot save a person as the human heart is the problem — not our physical being alone (Jeremiah 17:9-10). This is a strong warning.

Paul expresses that this eternal ruin and destruction as being banished away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might forever in a place of continual never ending ruin, rot, decay, destruction, not never ending non-being. This is never ending which fits the dire pleadings and warnings Jesus made on this subject. Eternal means eternal as the context cements.

2 Thessalonians 1:9, “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might…” ESV

Eternal non-existence may frighten some but look at it more. A Person would simply cease to exist and thus be at restful peace in oblivion. This would prove that a person is able to get away with crimes against humanity. They did their deeds. Their victims suffered much, and yet they gotten away with it proven on this very planet.

It would also prove that God is not a God of the living at all. Not really God who is able to keep his word. Not a God of true justice at all to anyone, both to the bad and the good. So your doctrine is a doctrine that causes God to deny his own nature, character, and power. You desire this?

...according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him. Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice...(Job 34)

Isaiah 48:22, "There is no peace," says the LORD, "for the wicked."


Truth of the Matter: Closing Comments begin - Note what is written below is not intended for believers

A person sends themselves to the pit, hell by rejecting God; God who offers life and cleansing from a heart of rebellion that seeks to make God dance to the tunes of man. They reject all God's pleading to turn back to him. Sadly People choose life without God very willingly. Who makes you sin? Who abuses choice and reason? Who seeks to justify one's actions with excuses? Who puts themselves in hell? God obliges justly!

In this life, we have another chance to be transformed into the newness of Life through Christ. If that is rejected, Isaiah 3:11 rings true: "Woe to the (wicked) iniquitous! - It shall be ill with him, for what his hands have dealt out shall be done to him”

Some claim that a Loving God would never send anyone to Hell forever. How could a Loving God not send someone there as that is what they chose over God's love? You who say such things do not understand God's Love. His Love is not a license used to exploit his grace so you can live in the illusion of good deeds covering up the real you inside. All are guilty of exploiting his Love and Grace for selfish purposes: that's called rebellion.

Have you ever lied? Ever stole, ever borrowed from work without returning? Ever had a foul thought? Ever justified your bad actions? Ever been faithless in your life? We may pass these off with human smugness and that declares:

“God understands that I am only human and will never allow me an eternity in Hell because he is so-loving. After all, I do good things too and am not so bad!”

So you'll carry such reasoning into heaven after seeing how God honors life? Expect him to make repayment of cleansing in heaven so you can live like hell on earth? If one expected that out of you, this would be considered an insult. You desired nothing of God in this life other than God to fit you whims. Love would banish such forever away because love respects your proven desire to abuse love and goodness.

God pleads to return to him on his terms in this life alone and because of this, many reject for various grand reasons choosing one's own philosophic logic over God's. Why would God want such like this to inhabit eternity with? With such reasoning and faithlessness — heaven would become as it is now in this mortal life. This - love will not allow.

Job 34:26-33, “26 He strikes them for their wickedness in a place for all to see, 27 because they turned aside from following him and had no regard for any of his ways…30 that a godless man should not reign, that he should not ensnare the people. 31 "For has anyone said to God, 'I have borne punishment; I will not offend any more; 32 teach me what I do not see; if I have done iniquity, I will do it no more'? 33 Will he then make repayment to suit you, because you reject it? For you must choose, and not I; therefore declare what you know. “

In this life is where the dirt is, contained. You desire to take a little with you to heaven? If one abuses their choices here on earth they'll do so forever unless one surrenders to Almighty God and be cleansed from this, now on this plane that seals the deal. He will not let one abuse his good nature in heaven. Now, in this life is cleansing — not in the afterlife or in heaven. Now is the day and time of salvation! That's love. Love does not rejoice with wrong doing.

God is Honest

The Bible pulls no punches it says all such that practice such things will have part in a new kind of hell described in the future as a lake of fire for all to see:

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving, and those having become foul, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the lying ones, their part will be in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.." Revelations 21:8 LITV

Often, some of those adhering to Universalism and Annihilationism will go at great lengths to use the Strong's Concordance Dictionary of Biblical Greek words to redefine the word translated 'Lake' in the above verse as meaning a small, very small farm pond, or a small, very small harbor by tracing the etymology of this single word.

However, this is no small muddy farm pond as some Universalist and Annihilationist try to claim: it is a large body of fire, large enough to have a harbor. A large body of water makes a harbor a harbor. A harbor is where one enters the ocean. So is it any wonder certain individuals are placed at the entrance for all to see?

Certain people use etymology of the Greek word translated 'Lake' to make it mean it is only a small pond or a simple tiny harbor of insignificance. The actual word can be used to describe many types of bodies of water. The context it is used in Greek cements the actual meaning.

The context of Revelations 20:10-15 describes a lot of individuals being tossed in there. Context proves this is no small pond but rather a huge place to fit all the rest of humanity not found in the book of life as well as one third of the fallen angels as well as those in the prison of the current hell.

So do not fool yourself — surrender and ask the Lord to save you and make you born again and He will change you!

Pray simply, “Lord have mercy on me, I am a sinner — save me and change me by your gracious hand, fill me with thy Spirit and seal me to be thine.”

Isaiah 1:18, "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool…"
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By B. W. Melvin — know as B. W. on this thread
Author of: A Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion

Bible quotes not otherwise cited are from the English Standard Version (ESV)

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After thought:

My prayer is for the reader; however they are lead to this web site (who read this discourse) would be for readers to be open to the Lord and learn to reason with Him from the bible. For readers to learn to ask questions and seek answers by measuring their own answers against what the bible reveals God is like. This leads to more and more questions until you can reconcile the last answer with who God is as the bible reveals.

You may raise objections and through these may learn how much effort we put into justifying ourselves by stating over and over again what is fair according to our standards. Doing so, may the Lord cause you to see a glimpse of his Holiness and come to your senses! God will not deny himself, his promises, his gifts, who he is.

Stay in the bible. This process takes time. Do not stray from the bible. In due time, the Lord and you will reason together and together discover many profound truths. You'll know you are on the right track and learned what you needed to by an increasing Love for God and an awesome respect growing in you for God. Your love for God will grow and you'll learn how to be a reflection of the handiwork of God to those around you and not a curse.

So....

“The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace...” Numbers 6:24-26

God bless you all!
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Please note in Part 14 - I re-edited the last section about harbors and lakes for better clarity. You may want to scroll back and re-read the last section - God is Honest again.

B. W. Melvin — know as B. W. on this thread
Author of: A Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion

Bible quotes not otherwise cited are from the English Standard Version (ESV)[/quote]
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B.W.,

I've ordered your book. I should receive it by mid-November.

Thanks for your posts on this topic.

FL

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:B.W.,

I've ordered your book. I should receive it by mid-November.

Thanks for your posts on this topic.

FL

Thanks FL! If you have questions about book - please feel free to ask! It did happen - once you read it, you'll understand what I mean.

FYI:

I have been currently ill for several months now. Doctors are leaning toward a diagnosis that stems from what I contracted in AZ (which in my book I go into more details). It seems a long term effect that can develop over the years is damage to nerve endings in the gut along with sporadic non-specific colitis / spastic colon symptoms. In other words, the nerves in my guts, colon, intestines, misfire causing pain, nausea, and other issues.

Looks like something I have to live with and take some med's to calm the nerves in the intestines. What I caught in AZ 1980 was a nasty water borne disease, I never thought 28 years later it would cause the symptoms I am going through now. I guess it serves me a reminder that what happened - happened but most importantly that the Lord is gracious and good and will see us all through what inflictions we may go through.
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Thank you very much B.W. for all the explanations about hell.

I should receive your book in about 2 weeks ...

Praying for you

Don't worry about going to hell. Hell is just a fraudulent notion that was disseminated by the christian church, one of their many tools in subjugating the underclass.

Thanks for stopping by bane, now run along and crawl back under your rock (aka grandpa to you).

Hi Bane,

your curiosity has brought you here it seems and I hope you are open to discussing things in a fair manner? I visited Richard Dawkins chat site for a while and I had to respect the position of the majority on that site and for what the site stood for so I hope you do the same here. I don't actually believe in a literal hell either but I've posted that thought before on here. You'll find lots of interesting things on the home site regarding scientific themes. I have the God Delusion too. Dickie is good at putting pen to paper and I agreed with a lot of what he said in the book but as a Christian, I obviously didn't agree with the main idea. I have also got the book, the Dawkins Delusion by Alister McGrath.

Just a quick note to Byblos, are you not challenged to debate with Bane, as I know I am, or is it easier to hurl insults?

catherine wrote:Just a quick note to Byblos, are you not challenged to debate with Bane, as I know I am, or is it easier to hurl insults?

No.

I've just noticed that you've banned him. He'll no doubt be ever more sure in his mind that Christians are narrow minded and intolerant and will be further entrenched in his atheism. It's a good job it wasn't you who tried to win over Nicky Cruz, as his tactics were to swear and punch. This guy Bane came here most likely to cause mischief but I think as a supposedly Christian website we should love our enemies and at least, once, try to reason with them. If they continue to disrupt things, then fine, bar them. I will not be coming to this site again as this is about my third similar experience of unloving behaviour by the administrators.

catherine wrote:I've just noticed that you've banned him. He'll no doubt be ever more sure in his mind that Christians are narrow minded and intolerant and will be further entrenched in his atheism. It's a good job it wasn't you who tried to win over Nicky Cruz, as his tactics were to swear and punch. This guy Bane came here most likely to cause mischief but I think as a supposedly Christian website we should love our enemies and at least, once, try to reason with them. If they continue to disrupt things, then fine, bar them. I will not be coming to this site again as this is about my third similar experience of unloving behaviour by the administrators.

Catherine, I had sent you a PM before you posted this one, please read it. If you still decide to leave then God be with you.

For the record (not that I have to explain myself but here it is anyway), bane was banned for violation of the board purpose from a different post.