Evidence for God from Science

I'm not a member of either party Zoe. I'm an independent and registered in California with a party that is independent. I blame every citizen and every politician that actively resist getting adequate medical care available to all American citizens. This includes Blue Dog Democrats and Republicans. It would include machine Democrats as well if that was their position.

ageofknowledge wrote:I'm not a member of either party Zoe. I'm an independent and registered in California with a party that is independent. I blame every citizen and every politician that actively resist getting adequate medical care available to all American citizens. This includes Blue Dog Democrats and Republicans. It would include machine Democrats as well if that was their position.

Problem is this: the liberals — neo Marxist is more apt - are using the need for health care and using it for their political advantage. In other words, as evidenced by Dem's running urban cities — African Americas / the poor / etc living in these areas are not improving. They are just used as cannon fodder so the Dems'can stay in power…

Same with current health care bill. They Dems tout that once people will read the bill then they'll all be on board. Sorry, when months and months have passed and people clamored to read the bills in progress per alleged transparency Obama promised, then why didn't they let us read the bill earlier if it was sooo great?????

I guess they need demons to blame — like republicans and blue dog dems so that they can finally silence all opposition and have only one Party in governing America. Amazing, only republicans and blue dog dems are capable of evil, starving children, crushing the disabled underfoot, and they, the dems are not, yet, their current policies crush Americans at every opportunity in order to subjugate and enslave them. Look at the Inner cities or even real govt run health care currently applied in the Indian reservations…

Why didn't they let us read the bill earlier if it was so good and win the masses over to it earlier?

Instead it was a bill crafted behind closed doors, around 2500 pages, rammed through the Senate with only a 51 majority needed now to pass it, was not transparent as promised by the president, huge massive bribes beyond anything that has happened before to canvass a bill through, as well as voted on just before Christmas when people are preoccupied with other personal matters.

Top it off - act now - buy now. We know scam tactics are used by high pressure salesman. Also, we also know that if it sound too good to be true - then it is... The dems sound like high pressure salespeople touting something too good to be true. I smell a rip off a coming...

This is a bad bill — formed by Liberals who do not care about real hurting Americans. They only want to use them to build power. People are awakening to their antics and this bill will most likely divide America and may even lead to an open rebellion in which many people will die trying to protect our bill of rights from being taken away from us.

Republicans and conservative Dems (if there are any) are not the problem, nor are the evil — the real evil is at work in the controlling party drunk with power. We will find out what is in the bill and when we do — it may come to open warfare in our country. That is how angry many citizens are at congress and many have buyer remorse in the way they voted.

It wouldn't surprise me that inside this final bill will be something akin to the fairness doctrine, internet censorship, state control superseding parental control, as well as rationed care, cost controls, denial of coverage, etc… wouldn't surprise me at all…
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We've already covered this ground B.W.. If the Republicans had taken the lead when they were in power instead of actively resisting it with everything in them then the opportunity wouldn't be present. There would be no opportunity for them. There would be no gap to fill.

The body count must end.

If the means of it ending aren't satisfactory to you Republlicans, then you can try to modify them later. But really you should have just led the effort when you had the chance. You should have taken the ground and used it for your political victories. But you ceded it to your enemy who is making good use of it themselves. The Republicans made the wrong move on the chess board. The Democrats are capitalizing on that.

I don't believe providing medical care to all Americans will result in the end of free speech, the end of religious liberty, and a new wave of Soviet style communism. That's Rush Limbaugh malarkey. What isn't is that the unnecessary and needless crippling and dying of Americans due to a lack of medical care MUST end!

I don't know if the Republicans will ever pull their head out of the sand and begin to make right decisions in the future. They may. Or not. But what I do know is playing whose the lesser of two evils doesn't go very far with Americans that are suffering and dying needlessly. We want real results that make our lives better. Health care qualifies.

For me, Age, it comes down to this: I do not trust Liberal Politicians. I have enough political science and social science background to know how they operate, tactic they use, Rules for radicals, etc… much like how some have treated you - leave you in the dust...

Mao - By a Barrel of a Gun and now here is how the Neo Marxist idea of type of gun evolved that should be best used to fundamental transform America:

Gun of manipulated Media ... Gun of economic ruin ... Gun of castigating any opposition as the enemy, Gun of intimidation, Gun of class envy, Gun of community organizing, Gun of unions, Gun of bitterness, etc and etc… and if all fails — create economic catastrophe so the Gun of brute force can be implemented….all discussed in my college classes for social change!

But I digress — let me get back on topic…

We all know that we need real honest health car reform. This is not the Bill that will produce it and it is not even a honest start. You, myself, Gman, Zoe — all have health issues that we have discussed on this forum and need better health insurance too. We know that real honest health care reform is needed — but this Bill is not it — it smells diabolical as it has all the traits and evidences attached too it.

Politicians are not doctors and they make too many rules and the reg you too death. I deal with Medicaid and Medicare billing and they (Washington) screwed this up and now they salivate on taking over a large chunk of the U.S. economy? You got to be kidding!

The vast Majority of Washington politicians including the President do not have any real life experiences — they live is a cloud coo-coo-land. Obama reminds me of several of my past neo-Marxist Professors — high on ideals but never lived any length of time outside academia to discover that these ideas do not work in the real world...

Time will tell what this bill is really about!

Also, Bush could not run for President — stop blaming Bush for all the worlds problems, He is a frappe man not satan — get over it.Bush was a push over for the Dems. He never defended himself against their triads and he always compromised with them and worked with them.

However, the current administration — no compromise, no working together. Republicans problem is that they treat the Dems as noble colleagues while the Dems treat them as the enemy. They need to wise up… to the type barrel of Gun the Dems are aimming at them....
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I trust all politicians. I trust them to do exactly what is in their own best interests and in accordance with whatever corrupted version of today's ideological models pass for politics. Neoconservatives are just as bad as modern liberals in their own way. The first wreck the country to take over the world while the second wreck the country to take over the country. The Democrats have the numbers to push their agenda whether or not healthcare is even on the table.

The bill is a step in the right direction in that it gives medical care to more people that need it. We'll continue to fight to get healthcare for all Americans. Rejecting the bill means many Americans suffer and die needlessly that would be helped.

If the Republicans get it together and take a leadership role on this that gives Americans access to adequate medical care we will support them. They haven't done that. Only the Democrats have. So we support the Democrat plan. We don't expect perfection from either party. We expect corruption from both parties. But at least we'll have healthcare.

As for yourself, there is nothing... zero... nada... that you have to prove to me. I know your history, I see the high caliber way which you carry yourself and communicate, and I accept you fully. There are many times I wish I was more like you. I hope to grow to be more like you because of your many Christlike qualities. But I still fall short... for now. I'm working on it but it's going to take a few more years I fear. I'm trying to get another 12 step cycle (my 2nd) but have to wait for the next group to open whenever that is.

Anyways, I respect your position and am not disagreeing that modern liberals are using it to further their corrupt ideology. I expect them to. I'm just saying either party seeks to further their corrupt ideologies. One is more diluted than the other is all. The less diluted evil brand won't give us healthcare. We need health care. We are suffering and dying. You can't expect people to lay down and deform and die so modern liberals won't be able to pursue their ideology while neo-conservatives stand by nodding at the body count as a good thing refusing to lift a finger to help them. I mean come on.

As for the current plan - in words made famous by Moe Howard:

"we shall see what we shall see..."
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ageofknowledge~your politics and mine are the same.A true independant seems to baffle most people today.Everyone is so confrontational it makes me sad.This could be the time of times if we spent half of what we spend on helping humanity that we spend on killing humanity.No one denies that we have the world's greatest military.So why can't we do the same caliber in healthcare?For all not just the wealthy.

ezer wrote:ageofknowledge~your politics and mine are the same.A true independant seems to baffle most people today.Everyone is so confrontational it makes me sad.This could be the time of times if we spent half of what we spend on helping humanity that we spend on killing humanity.No one denies that we have the world's greatest military.So why can't we do the same caliber in healthcare?For all not just the wealthy.

Again ezer - we shall see what we shall see...
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I do have one thing to say that sums up the whole argument. Simply have the government pay the costs of healthcare, leave the way billing and medical coding is done as it is now, the government can hire the former insurance coders who are familiar with the system so that people can't use the excuse of job loss as much. If it was done simply this way, there'd be no "government messing up everything it touches" issue.

Let me put it even more bluntly. How can a so called primarily Christian nation support a system where peoples lives are for profit? What would Christ think or do? Let those who can't pay die, or everyone gets taxed a little more for the greater good? The moral answer is clear, greed is the motive for the hate of the former public option.

PaulB007 wrote:I do have one thing to say that sums up the whole argument. Simply have the government pay the costs of healthcare, leave the way billing and medical coding is done as it is now, the government can hire the former insurance coders who are familiar with the system so that people can't use the excuse of job loss as much. If it was done simply this way, there'd be no "government messing up everything it touches" issue.

Let me put it even more bluntly. How can a so called primarily Christian nation support a system where peoples lives are for profit? What would Christ think or do? Let those who can't pay die, or everyone gets taxed a little more for the greater good? The moral answer is clear, greed is the motive for the hate of the former public option.

Hate to tell you - take this from someone who has done Medicaid and Medicare Billing and Redetermination paper work. You do not want this. The waste in these programs comes from excessive check and rechecks done in order avoid paying medical providers so that the Government books are cooked to look like savings for a few months. They are worse than the insurance companies and seek to deny coverage in any way they can. For example try to get a Walker for an Elderly person from Medicaid!

An Example: a Developmentally Disabled person born with Down Syndrome as well as blind is made yearly to have a Doctor verify that they are disabled. You fill out massive amount of paper work for this and if NOT filled out correctly — the person is declared unable to receive services and you have to reapply which usually takes upwards to 45 days, including medical test needed (that the person cannot afford to pay since Medicaid was denied) in order to get back on Medicaid. It is a nightmare of governmental red tape…

You do not want the U.S. Federal and State Government running Health Care like they do with Medicaid and Medicare…These treat clients and people and agencies that provide clients services as criminals who must prove they deserve and are worthy enough to receive services…
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Now that it passed, It looks like we'll have to see what happens.
I predict more than a few Dems losing their spot.

But as I sifted through what I've heard the entire time, which is basically "you're socialist!" vs. "people. Need. Healthcare.", one argument has held a glaring truth to me: the Republicans haven't offered an alternative plan. I think that failed them in the end, and I wonder what factors played into their lack of an alternative.

openminded wrote:Now that it passed, It looks like we'll have to see what happens.
I predict more than a few Dems losing their spot.

But as I sifted through what I've heard the entire time, which is basically "you're socialist!" vs. "people. Need. Healthcare.", one argument has held a glaring truth to me: the Republicans haven't offered an alternative plan. I think that failed them in the end, and I wonder what factors played into their lack of an alternative.

According to some Republicans on Fox News, they have offered alternatives, but Pres. Hussein keeps shooting them down.

openminded wrote:Now that it passed, It looks like we'll have to see what happens.
I predict more than a few Dems losing their spot.

But as I sifted through what I've heard the entire time, which is basically "you're socialist!" vs. "people. Need. Healthcare.", one argument has held a glaring truth to me: the Republicans haven't offered an alternative plan. I think that failed them in the end, and I wonder what factors played into their lack of an alternative.

I don't know how much sifting you have done, but what you said here is simply not true. There were Republican alternatives on the table right from the start of this debate.

You can see it here: http://www.gop.gov/solutions/healthcare

August wrote:

openminded wrote:Now that it passed, It looks like we'll have to see what happens.
I predict more than a few Dems losing their spot.

But as I sifted through what I've heard the entire time, which is basically "you're socialist!" vs. "people. Need. Healthcare.", one argument has held a glaring truth to me: the Republicans haven't offered an alternative plan. I think that failed them in the end, and I wonder what factors played into their lack of an alternative.

I don't know how much sifting you have done, but what you said here is simply not true. There were Republican alternatives on the table right from the start of this debate.

You can see it here: http://www.gop.gov/solutions/healthcare

And some were offered in 2006 as well... but you do not hear about this...

Now with Obama Care think on this truth about it....

65 thousands IRS officals needed to enforce that everyone has forced health care and if not you will be fined 2500 dollars or 2 percent of total gross income which ever is higher....

Hmmmm

Speaks volumes...

Now more truth will come out - now that we actualy can ead the bill - there is no place to hide. The ire of the American people will be invoked and things may get heated. Do you think that martial law may be declared now that the bill can be read...?
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B. W. wrote:

August wrote:

openminded wrote:Now that it passed, It looks like we'll have to see what happens.
I predict more than a few Dems losing their spot.

But as I sifted through what I've heard the entire time, which is basically "you're socialist!" vs. "people. Need. Healthcare.", one argument has held a glaring truth to me: the Republicans haven't offered an alternative plan. I think that failed them in the end, and I wonder what factors played into their lack of an alternative.

I don't know how much sifting you have done, but what you said here is simply not true. There were Republican alternatives on the table right from the start of this debate.

You can see it here: http://www.gop.gov/solutions/healthcare

And some were offered in 2006 as well... but you do not hear about this...

Now with Obama Care think on this truth about it....

65 thousands IRS officals needed to enforce that everyone has forced health care and if not you will be fined 2500 dollars or 2 percent of total gross income which ever is higher....

Hmmmm

Speaks volumes...

Now more truth will come out - now that we actualy can ead the bill - there is no place to hide. The ire of the American people will be invoked and things may get heated. Do you think that martial law may be declared now that the bill can be read...?
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Where did you get those #'s(2500 dollars, 2 percent of total gross income)?