Darwinism?

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
DannyM
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Re: Darwinism?

Post by DannyM »

cslewislover wrote:
DannyM wrote:
zoegirl wrote:I prefer the british accent....but I have no idea of your question...it is so painful that I don't watch it....but I usually feel so left out of the conversations at school that I succumb every once in awhile....
Sorry Zoe, but I thought you were saying that the Brits had "tiny buts"... Blame RickD !! 8) You'd hate my accent Zoe, but I know I'd love yours...
:pound: Lol, I hadn't been keeping up with this thread earlier, so I just saw this. Why would Zoe not like your accent? I know the accents vary a lot, depending on the area, and while I love some accents there, others I don't so much. Have you seen that XBOX game Fable? A lot of the accents on there are not very pleasant. You can marry someone in that game, and I picked the same person out twice! I wasn't trying to (her face is hidden), but the accent she has (um . . . you play a guy) is very nice, I guess it would be considered upper class. She says kind-of snooty things sometimes too, LOL. Anyway, you would like our accent?
Wow, CS, where do I begin? I'm a Londonahh - translated Londoner. Don't do computer games these days - I stepped out after the Atari and Sega! I'm certainly not in the snooty bracket of Englishman. Love the NY accent on the ladies, and the Southern accents.

Since Charlie Darwin has been put in his box, let's crack on with accents ... ? :) SoCal? Love it! 8)
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Gabrielman
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Re: Darwinism?

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DannyM wrote:SoCal? Love it! 8)
Hey now, wait a minute, you are not hitting on her are you? You do know me and her are in a relationship, don't you? I don't have to come over there do I? :boxing: Now now Danny, I don't want to have to hurt you! :lol: Okay just kidding, but seriously, she doesn't have a southern accent. ;)
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DannyM
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Re: Darwinism?

Post by DannyM »

Gabrielman wrote:
DannyM wrote:SoCal? Love it! 8)
Hey now, wait a minute, you are not hitting on her are you? You do know me and her are in a relationship, don't you? I don't have to come over there do I? :boxing: Now now Danny, I don't want to have to hurt you! :lol: Okay just kidding, but seriously, she doesn't have a southern accent. ;)
Haha, just seen this! Easy bro, I'm innocent here :lol: 8) y>:D<
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kmr
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Re: Darwinism?

Post by kmr »

Well, I'm still fuzzy on the whole thing too, but as far as I see it, evolutionists tend to have two different ideas.

1) Mutation creates new genes.

2) Mutation changes genes into new genes.

My idea (I'm sure that countless others have come to this conclusion as well) is as such:

1) Mutation cannot create new genes, because mutation by definition is "an inconsistency in genetic code due to natural influence in a creature". In other words, mutation harms or disrupts the genes that already exist.

2) Mutation wouldn't turn a life form into another by changing its genes alone, firstly because a complex organism obviously has more genes than a bacterium (which mutation doesn't produce), and second because mutation never really (or perhaps one time in ten to the -1000 power) changes one gene into another that works in an organism, instead it harms the organism. Yes, every person has mutations, but those are the mutations that don't make your eyes focus right, or, in rare cases, change the location of your toes to unnatural positions.

Natural selection does happen, but all it is is different individual inheriting different, pre-existing genes from their parents. Research the difference between dominant and recessive genes (probably already know it), but anyways, there are multiple genes for every property (like eye color), some more likely to be inherited than others. Natural selection basically is when an individual gets a less likely (recessive) gene and passes it on to its children, which doesn't often happen that you can tell would make it a different "species". Different types of dogs were generated in this manner, but the basic form of the canine stayed the same, because it is just the same genes being circulated in different ways.
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Re: Darwinism?

Post by zoegirl »

kmr wrote:Well, I'm still fuzzy on the whole thing too, but as far as I see it, evolutionists tend to have two different ideas.

1) Mutation creates new genes.

2) Mutation changes genes into new genes.

My idea (I'm sure that countless others have come to this conclusion as well) is as such:

1) Mutation cannot create new genes, because mutation by definition is "an inconsistency in genetic code due to natural influence in a creature". In other words, mutation harms or disrupts the genes that already exist.
There are several types of mutations in the genetic code. Remember that DNA codes for information to make proteins. When being replicated and/or transcribed into mRNA, the code can be either changed or made into the incorrect protein. Every three bases in the genetic code are called codons. These codons will match to specific amino acids that, in turn, when connected, will generate a functioning polypeptide. The function of this polypeptide and therefore the proteins rely upon the correct folding due to the sequence of amino acids. If a codon is incorrect, then several things can happened.

1. It can mistakenly be changed to a stop codon, thereby stopping the entire process of protein synthesis, which obviously is horrible.
2. It can simply be changed to another nucleotide base (an A is added to the DNA instead of a G, for instance), which therefore changes the amino acid that is inserted into the polypeptide chain. This can result in changes to the polypeptide chain anywhere from a neutral mutation (the amino acid change doesn't really affect the protein structure) to a bad change to perhaps a good change (the new amino acid perhaps can change the protein to hold onto a substrate better, for instance). In this case, a mutation isn't always dangerous (although very frequently so), sometimes neutral, and rarely better.
3. The worst type of mutation happens in what is called a frameshift mutation. In this case a nucleotide is dropped or inserted into the DNA chain: ATTGGC can become ATTAGGC...which, as you can imagine, will be disastrous since it causes EVERY subsequent codon to be different. THE BOY ATE HIS CAT becomes TAH EBO YAT EHI SCA T... In this case we see that it's not simply one amino acid that is changed but the entire strand, leading to an entirely different amino acid sequence and an entirely different protein.

Case number two offers the best scenario for neutral or possibly beneficial mutations.
2) Mutation wouldn't turn a life form into another by changing its genes alone, firstly because a complex organism obviously has more genes than a bacterium (which mutation doesn't produce), and second because mutation never really (or perhaps one time in ten to the -1000 power) changes one gene into another that works in an organism, instead it harms the organism. Yes, every person has mutations, but those are the mutations that don't make your eyes focus right, or, in rare cases, change the location of your toes to unnatural positions.

Natural selection does happen, but all it is is different individual inheriting different, pre-existing genes from their parents. Research the difference between dominant and recessive genes (probably already know it), but anyways, there are multiple genes for every property (like eye color), some more likely to be inherited than others. Natural selection basically is when an individual gets a less likely (recessive) gene and passes it on to its children, which doesn't often happen that you can tell would make it a different "species". Different types of dogs were generated in this manner, but the basic form of the canine stayed the same, because it is just the same genes being circulated in different ways.
Not really. Natural selection is not working on whether the dominant or recessive allele is passed on to the offspring. It operates solely based on which allele is passed on selectively. In some cases a recessive allele provides for more reproductive fitness and in other cases the dominant allele does. If a parent population contains 60 percent dominant alleles and 40 % recessive alleles but the organisms that contain the recessive alleles reproduce, then the next generation will have more recessive alleles. (and vice versa if the dominant allele provides more selective advantage).
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kmr
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Re: Darwinism?

Post by kmr »

Zoegirl,
Yeah, that's what is happening. Sorry, I really dumb down some of this stuff sometimes, and I don't know why I left the strategic advantage/disadvantage part of natural selection out... but thank you for a much more appropriate, scientific explanation!
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Re: Darwinism?

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derrick09 wrote:Something more specifically that I would like to know is, if Darwinian evolution really happened, how did it form the eye as well as the sense of sight? I have a feeling the only kind of answers I would get from evolutionists would be something like "well since we needed sight and it promotes survival advantages...yadda yadda yadda..." But the only other thing that I could get is some similiar stuff I've heard over the years such as the first eyes formed on fish started out as mere skin blemishes or sun spots and over time along with mutations produced the highly complex eyes that you and I have. I was also going to ask my fellow Christian apologists in here what other kinds of answers or responses have you got from evolutionists on how the eye was formed? Thanks for your time, God bless. :wave:
I'll give you my understanding of it, but understand I'm not scientist and have only accepted this because it seems the most likely to me. Sight was developed through progress. Mutations in organisms made it sensitive to light. That sensitivity, over a long period of time, gave them slight advantages over the ones without the sensitivity, and it grew from there. That is about as simple as you can get, but I'm sure you want to get more complicated, so here:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2007/11/06/2 ... ution.html

Here it explains that sight has been traced as far back as 600 million years ago through jellyfish-like organisms. As I stated above, it had an extremely limited perception of sight, it could only differentiate between light and dark. However, clearly being about to differentiate between light and dark places, and thus, gaining better understanding of their environment, gave them a slight advantage over the rest and that advantage lead to their procreation and development over time. Don't see them as "eyes", just surfaces with cells that have mutated to interact with photons. It doesn't see anything, it doesn't really even understand what light and dark is, it just reacts to it.

I'll leave that there and see what further questions you have.

EDIT: And sorry for the necro, I didn't realize how old or large this post was, I just saw it in a member's profile as his more active post and thought it was interesting!
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