Evidence for God from Science

BavarianWheels wrote:Ok. You take the word eternal literally. Cool by me. If eternal means exactly what it means literally, how is it one can suffer eternal fire, yet the eternal fire not be burning still?

I have been over this wheels...

J.Davis wrote:This is a quote from the annihilationist link..

Jude 1:7 says that Sodom and Gomorrah underwent "a punishment of eternal [aionios] fire." It is evident that the fire that destroyed the two cities is eternal, not because of its duration but because of its permanent results.

Notice how they cut out just what they needed...The full scripture reads..

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

So, the city Sodom and Gomorrah indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh? No!!! the people in the city did! And it was an example! which they conveniently cut out! Maybe it was the type of fire that would be in hell but it is 100%! clear that he was talking about the people and not the city as well as it just being an example..

God should leave the people alive on earth as they burn for all eternity? How can anyone not get this?

Sodom and Gomorrah was an example of the kind of people who will spend eternity in hell and are burnt by eternal fire wheels. It was not talking about the city or the fire...

J.Davis wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:Ok. You take the word eternal literally. Cool by me. If eternal means exactly what it means literally, how is it one can suffer eternal fire, yet the eternal fire not be burning still?

I have been over this wheels...

So then you're not telling the truth when you say you interpret eternal to mean exactly that. It's a slippery slope you tread confidently.

J.Davis wrote:This is a quote from the annihilationist link..

Jude 1:7 says that Sodom and Gomorrah underwent "a punishment of eternal [aionios] fire." It is evident that the fire that destroyed the two cities is eternal, not because of its duration but because of its permanent results.

Notice how they cut out just what they needed...The full scripture reads..

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

So, the city Sodom and Gomorrah indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh? No!!! the people in the city did! And it was an example! which they conveniently cut out! Maybe it was the type of fire that would be in hell but it is 100%! clear that he was talking about the people and not the city as well as it just being an example..

God should leave the people alive on earth as they burn for all eternity? How can anyone not get this?

J.Davis wrote:Sodom and Gomorrah was an example of the kind of people who will spend eternity in hell and are burnt by eternal fire wheels. It was not talking about the city or the fire...

J.Davis' quote wrote:are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

If these are an example of those undergoing the punishment of eternal fire...your words, then it stands to reason that the fire is eternal in consequence, not in burning without ever going out. If you're going to claim literal exegesis, then stick with literal which would make the example to be still burning in a small area for all to view...as an example.
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Good one Bav !

Also when smoke goes up forever and ever can mean the same as saying this thread is going on forever and ever. It will sometime end but it seems to go on forever and ever.

When I view something that goes out of sight, I say it goes forever and ever, don't you ?

BavarianWheels wrote:If these are an example of those undergoing the punishment of eternal fire...your words, then it stands to reason that the fire is eternal in consequence, not in burning without ever going out. If you're going to claim literal exegesis, then stick with literal which would make the example to be still burning in a small area for all to view...as an example.

Wheels?

I said...Sodom and Gomorrah was an example of the kind of people who will spend eternity in hell and are burnt by eternal fire. It was not talking about the city or the fire in anyway at all. Just the people in the city.

1 Peter 2:21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,

Jesus IS an example for those who want eternal life and he is not on earth at this time, He is eternal...The example is gone but the real thing still lives. The sinners of Sodom and Gomorrah are not on earth at this time. But they still live...And the bible say’s they will come back and face eternal torment.

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Mark 9:47 “If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Revelation 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Your reasoning works because you change the definition of the word eternal...It’s a lie and effects the whole bible.

J.Davis, speaking of being selective in what is literal and what is not - using one of your texts - why do you take the first part of Mark 9:47 as literal as you do the last part. Why ? Because it doesn't correspond to other verses in meaning as we are also told that are bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Even if no scriptures could be found to deny the plain meaning of this text, Christians would still disregard this interpretation on the basis of common sense and their knowledge of the character of God. And they would be right to do so.

Explanations from sites you don't seem to be reading -

Matthew 25:41- the eternal fire is the same fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Once it starts, nothing can put it out. That is why it is called 'eternal fire'. It goes out only when it has accomplished it's destruction. The result of an 'eternal fire' is that it produces an eternal effect that cannot be reversed. It destroys completely.

Matthew 25:46 - Death by annihilation in the Lake of Fire could certainly be called "eternal punishment" because it is eternal in its consequences. Death on earth is only temporal because everyone will be raised again at the resurrection. Death in the Lake of Fire, however, is eternal: there is no reversing it and no coming back from it.

Mark 9:47 - The context from Isaiah 66:24 is this: “And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” The figurative language (fire will never be quenched, their worm will not die) is very strong, but the passage makes it clear that the bodies will be dead. The fire will not be quenched and the worm will not die until it has accomplished its purpose of annihilating finally the wicked—until they are fully, and finally, dead.

Revelation 20:14 - Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty that we should have had to pay for our sins. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and because all have sinned (Romans 3:23), we all deserve that death. Now that Jesus died on the cross in our place, are we saved from physical death on earth? Of course not. Christians die all the time. What then are we saved from? We are rescued from the second death that takes place in the lake of fire (Rev. 20:13-15). This is a perfectly harmonious account of the message of the cross, and there is no serious flaw in it when examined with scripture.

Revelation 14:11 - In context look at the 2 preceding verses - A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." (Rev. 14:9-11, emphasis mine).

"to believe(as many do) that this is a figurative reference to everyone who failed to put their trust in God is to deny the plain language of Scripture that tells us that this is specifically a judgment on those who took the mark of the beast and worshipped him."

Furthermore, the verses clearly state this will take place "in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb." If nothing else, this should be enough to prove that this penalty is not an unending, conscious, torturing one because observing such a punishment is not the way the angels or the Lamb (Jesus Christ) will choose to spend eternity. So the passage appears to say nothing of hell or eternity at all. Instead, it would indicate that those people who are still alive at Christ's second coming who have worshipped the Beast and received his mark will be tormented and destroyed, in the presence of Jesus and the angels, by burning sulfur raining down from Heaven.

So, if you are trying to 'wow' people with verses and your interpretations, here are some alternate explanations I will put out here in the open.

We are all involved in our attempts to rightly divide the word of truth. And we do see through a glass darkly and this includes you. The apostle Paul admitted to knowing now only in part but I don't see you or B.W. admitting to it.

Will you admit that your 'T' view is an interpretation of scripture and that you are not infallible on this subject ? Infallible meaning that your interpretation is incapable of being wrong. That would be a good first step in you understanding of other views.

BavarianWheels wrote:.
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The truth is that the wages of sin is death. Full stop.
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Rom 5:12-14, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

1 Th 1:10 , "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

Ecc 12:6, 7 - "Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well. 7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it."

Ecc 12:14 , "For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil."

Heb 9:27 , "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment"-
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Post One of Two

Sudsy wrote:

Glad to see you admit it is annihilationist interpretation who God is – it is not from the bible, is it?

You don't give up do you ? Wrong again, it is from the bible. You seem to think you can take a few verses and this defines who God is and how He must act and yet you don't seem to understand that this is just your interpretation of God using a few selected texts. This reminds me of what cults do. I think you would probably criticize those you consider to be cults that do also use selected scriptures to support their beliefs and have their own understanding of who God is. For instance, a universalist considers verses that indicate that God will, in the end, be all in all and will cause every knee to bow and acknowledge Him as Saviour and be saved. Their view of punishment is to correct our thinking until we accept the truth. They view God as infinitely merciful and loving and His wrath has limits. I'm not sure I've presented this believe exactly but the point is, various views within Christianity use scripture as support.

No, I am not guilty of slandering God’s name by making him an cosmic abortionist; therefore, disprove what I write with scripture please...

Annihilationism makes God deny who and what He is – proves that he is partial, proves that he does not honor his gifts and callings – slanders God and goes against everything God says about himself in the bible – It is not my interpretation – it is what the bible says, without twisting word meaning or distorting it…

How else do you interpret scriptures that plainly tell of God’s character? Impossible to lie, does not show partiality, reneges on no gifts, callings, promises, always true to his word, etc and etc…

How else is there to interpret them Sudsy?

Fact: Annihilationism is used by cults, Jehovah Witnesses, Christadelphians, in fact the old English Arians used this doctrine and it was refuted way back when. More cults use annihilationism more than any other doctrine. Universalist are a cult – some hold to a limited form of annihilation, others do not. They are not Christian – sorry, plain and simple – they teach another Jesus…Tree known by its fruit…

Use scripture please and not over blown emotional human sentimental rhetoric…

Sudsy wrote:

It is impossible for God to lie, deny himself, his gifts, callings, promises, there is no variation or shadow of turning.

I agree with everything you said in this section of your response. The problem, once again, is that God will be true to Himself but He is not obligated to be true to who you think He is. He does not have to live up to your understandings of Him. I don't seem to be getting anywhere with you on this.

The problem, once again, is that God will be true to Himself but He is not obligated to be true to who you think He is, Sudsy.

It is what the bible says. Again you use no scripture to refute anything I wrote.

Annihilationism forces God to deny who he is and has to reinvent scripture based on human emotional rhetoric as the arbiter of truth – not what the bible says about God, character – nature.

Prove annihilation does not violate any of the scriptures posed to you about God so far and use scripture please – not emotions.

Sudsy wrote:

Why do you cite another website and bog people down reading opinions of people who insert wrong word meanings into their writings that cause God to act contrary to himself?

Because it is just your opinion that this is what these sites are saying. Some of us see their arguments and scriptural support and view of God as something very worth considering and not so easily dismissed as you do. We know what your arguments are as we read them over and over again (or just ignore the repetition) but some on other sites have a better way of explaining why they believe what they believe than I can so I refer to them.

Annihilationism comes from a long line of cultic and heretics traced back Epicurus’ philosophy summed up as: Fear of gods and death are inconsistent with atomism and if we can get rid of them, we will be free of mental anguish – quoted from his own pre Christian writings. His view was the beginnings of annihilationism...poof you are gone...

What happens if you are being mislead Sudsy? How can you measure biblical truth to find out if what you believe is really true? Depending solely on Men and women’s writings alone is a bad idea - what happens if they are wrong and they are leading to slander God’s name?

How can you be sure they are not?

Is the bible vain when it speaks of rote: in Isaiah, “Whom shall one teach knowledge? And whom shall one make to understand the message? Them that are weaned from the milk, them that are drawn from the breasts? 10 For it is precept by precept, precept by precept, line by line, line by line; here a little, there a little.” Isaiah 28:9, 10 JPS

And that God desires to reason with us? - and His Holy Spirit teaches us...etc &etc...

Again, you use no scripture reference to refute what I write, only site the sourses of your knowledge foundation human sentimentality..

Annihilation makes God Deny Himself in so many ways… No wonder cults use this doctrine more than any other.

Sudsy wrote:

Truth in these matters comes from comparing God’s written record about himself as the measure of truth, not human sentimentality.

Here again is an area you are stuck on believing. You insist that the 'A' view is based on human sentimentality and not scripture. For some 'A' viewers, this may be their primary motive. But as you can read, many have provided many arguments from scripture for both God's character and why God will ultimately destroy the wicked. I listened to a radio talk show through the Gospel Coaltion website yesterday where both views were being discussed by two strong supporters of each view and there was much respect given to each other. They had two very different concepts of the nature of God's character in some areas and what the finality of man will be but they both were in agreement that hell is a place to be avoided.

Use scripture please, not annihilationist writings based on privet interpretations that are traced back to those found Epicurus’ Socinianism, old English Arainism, Jehovah Witness ideads on annhilationism so used by cultist today in their writings....

Do you hear what you are saying Sudsy – no one can interpret the bible unless done so by those that share proven historical/modern heresy doctrines… all linked by a common thread annihilationism…

Scripture please, not human centric emotional rhetoric … as the foundation of truth…

Sudsy wrote:

Not what you want to hear – is it???

It doesn't both me to hear what you believe but you do sound like a broken record that just won't quit. But I guess this is your mission and calling. And I accept your use of colour and other features available here as long as you don't start using huge fonts and shouting at me

Truth is truth – bible explains itself in matter pertaining to who God is. I’ll keep quoting it an driving it home.

These truths about God I posted are some simple to understand, self evident, and engage in common sense.

They do not need thousands of pages or more to redefine the definition eternal, destruction, perishing, grave, sheol, pit, mot, etc... to fit Epicurus Socinian, English Arianist, Jehovah Witness, Chirstdelphelian lines of reasonings...(2 Peter 2:18 – Jude 1:14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)

My Words are few – Jesus quoted scripture and He used few words… He drove the points home – He was mocked, scoffed at, ridiculed, poked fun at too…

Sudsy wrote:

I stick with the truth about God, not as I like to interpret it (which you falsely accuse me of doing), but rather by what it teaches me about who God is.

And so do others with different views. I am not falsely accusing you of interpreting scripture as you would like it to say but rather your learnings from scripture involve your interpretations and your interpretations are the result of your biblical worldview. You seem to suggest that you have some inside knowledge on what scriptures teach that gives you the knowledge of absolute truths. I appreciate your conviction on what you believe but I'm not too impressed by your resistance to allowing that other believers read the same scriptures and get a different point of view. I can't seem to get that across to you, so I'll give up (at least for now as I have failed to keep away from this thread before as I think you need some help )

Annihilationism traces back to Epicurus, Socinianism, old Arianism lines of reasoning – a tree is known by its fruit…

Again you provide no scripture to disprove what I wrote that with simplicity explains concisely truths about God’s character pointing to God’s own refusal to deny himself and go against his word, promises, purposes; therefore, it looks like to me that you cannot recognize the absolute truth God revealed about himself within the bible.

Best you have done so far is to mock, scoff, ridicule, poked fun of…

...and then rely solely on repeated Epicurus, Socinian, old Arian, modern Jehovah witnesses, Christadelphians lines of reasoning, repeated and repeated…
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Post two - continued several frames below this one

Sudsy wrote:J.Davis, speaking of being selective in what is literal and what is not - using one of your texts - why do you take the first part of Mark 9:47 as literal as you do the last part. Why ? Because it doesn't correspond to other verses in meaning as we are also told that are bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Even if no scriptures could be found to deny the plain meaning of this text, Christians would still disregard this interpretation on the basis of common sense and their knowledge of the character of God. And they would be right to do so.

Explanations from sites you don't seem to be reading ....

Sudsy--- please tone down your insolence...

Everything you wrote in this portion is in error and forces God to deny who and what he is but however, fits well with Epicurus Socinian, English Arianist, Jehovah Witness, Chirstdelphelian lines of reasonings...(2 Peter 2:18 – Jude 1:14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19) and interpretations...

A tree is indeed known by its fruit...

God does not take away life - Sudsy...It is impossible for God to deny himself...
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Sudsy wrote:J.Davis, speaking of being selective in what is literal and what is not - using one of your texts - why do you take the first part of Mark 9:47 as literal as you do the last part. Why ? Because it doesn't correspond to other verses in meaning as we are also told that are bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Even if no scriptures could be found to deny the plain meaning of this text, Christians would still disregard this interpretation on the basis of common sense and their knowledge of the character of God. And they would be right to do so.

Sudsy...

Sudsy wrote:why do you take the first part of Mark 9:47 as literal as you do the last part.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

God gives us wisdom and helps us understand his words and his ways. We learn more and more of him as we continue to have fellowship with God. I take the Christian meaning of the scripture literally. And it corresponds perfectly with all other verses.

Sudsy wrote:Matthew 25:41- the eternal fire is the same fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Once it starts, nothing can put it out. That is why it is called 'eternal fire'. It goes out only when it has accomplished it's destruction. The result of an 'eternal fire' is that it produces an eternal effect that cannot be reversed. It destroys completely.

Not biblical at all. Eternal fire burns for all eternity...forever and ever. You seem to believe that eternal things have to be bolted down to one spot, they do not. If God wants to move eternal fire from hell to the moon then he can. If he wants to move it from hell to earth and back than he can. And I said maybe it was eternal fire, maybe it was not. He did not have to use eternal fire on Sodom and Gomorrah. Again, Sodom and Gomorrah is strictly about the type of people that will burn in hell...nothing else.

Sudsy wrote:Matthew 25:46 - Death by annihilation in the Lake of Fire could certainly be called "eternal punishment" because it is eternal in its consequences. Death on earth is only temporal because everyone will be raised again at the resurrection. Death in the Lake of Fire, however, is eternal: there is no reversing it and no coming back from it.

Not biblical. No it can not because the bible does not support the idea. Punishment in the lake of fire is eternal because the unsaved will never get out of the fire, they burn forever and ever.

Sudsy wrote:Mark 9:47 - The context from Isaiah 66:24 is this: “And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” The figurative language (fire will never be quenched, their worm will not die) is very strong, but the passage makes it clear that the bodies will be dead. The fire will not be quenched and the worm will not die until it has accomplished its purpose of annihilating finally the wicked—until they are fully, and finally, dead.

Yes, Jesus used that saying (where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched) in relation to those that will burn in hell. An expression...It just means that the unsaved will burn forever and ever, separated from God.

Sudsy wrote:Revelation 20:14 - Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty that we should have had to pay for our sins. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and because all have sinned (Romans 3:23), we all deserve that death. Now that Jesus died on the cross in our place, are we saved from physical death on earth? Of course not. Christians die all the time. What then are we saved from? We are rescued from the second death that takes place in the lake of fire (Rev. 20:13-15). This is a perfectly harmonious account of the message of the cross, and there is no serious flaw in it when examined with scripture.

Yeah... Jesus’ death covers those who accept him...The saved not the unsaved. And he saved us from being forever separated from him and burning for all eternity. Also, we are already freed from the death Jesus died for, we are saved.

Ephesians 2:1-5

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

The death being thrown into the lake of fire Revelation 20:14-15 means that no one die’s Sudsy…forever and ever.

Sudsy wrote:Revelation 14:11 - In context look at the 2 preceding verses - A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." (Rev. 14:9-11, emphasis mine).

"to believe(as many do) that this is a figurative reference to everyone who failed to put their trust in God is to deny the plain language of Scripture that tells us that this is specifically a judgment on those who took the mark of the beast and worshipped him.

“he, too” means as well as others...Also, smoke of their torment rises forever and ever is the same phrase used here Isaiah 34:10 Revelation 19:3 smoke in Sodom and Gomorrah Genesis 19:28 Seems to have been said when God made an example out of the type of people that will spend eternity in the lake of fire. More likely than not…everyone who is thrown into the lake of fire will smoke forever and ever, they’re being burnt after all. And after death is done away with…no one will die…forever and ever.

Sudsy wrote:Furthermore, the verses clearly state this will take place "in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb." If nothing else, this should be enough to prove that this penalty is not an unending, conscious, torturing one because observing such a punishment is not the way the angels or the Lamb (Jesus Christ) will choose to spend eternity. So the passage appears to say nothing of hell or eternity at all. Instead, it would indicate that those people who are still alive at Christ's second coming who have worshipped the Beast and received his mark will be tormented and destroyed, in the presence of Jesus and the angels, by burning sulfur raining down from Heaven.

Yeah, they will probably just throw them in then leave after awhile. It does not say that they have to watch them forever and ever.

Sudsy wrote:So, if you are trying to 'wow' people with verses and your interpretations, here are some alternate explanations I will put out here in the open.

Will you admit that your 'T' view is an interpretation of scripture and that you are not infallible on this subject ? Infallible meaning that your interpretation is incapable of being wrong. That would be a good first step in you understanding of other views.

No, I am not trying to wow anyone, could not care less about that…all about God’s creation and helping people. I understand your view, I just don’t agree with it. I believe I am right or I would not post on a public forum. I believe that the Traditional view is the truth just like I believe that Jesus is the truth. Concerning the bible…Whatever scripture say’s is true is true, It must be proven through scripture.

Post Two from several frames above this one

Sudsy wrote: J.Davis, speaking of being selective in what is literal and what is not - using one of your texts - why do you take the first part of Mark 9:47 as literal as you do the last part. Why ? Because it doesn't correspond to other verses in meaning as we are also told that are bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Even if no scriptures could be found to deny the plain meaning of this text, Christians would still disregard this interpretation on the basis of common sense and their knowledge of the character of God. And they would be right to do so.

Matthew 25:41- the eternal fire is the same fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Once it starts, nothing can put it out. That is why it is called 'eternal fire'. It goes out only when it has accomplished it's destruction. The result of an 'eternal fire' is that it produces an eternal effect that cannot be reversed. It destroys completely.

God places eternity in the heart, God does not take away life, what God does endures forever, God show no partiality toward anyone, He reneges on no gift, or promise, It is impossible for God to deny himself – your doctrine violates all these principles about God; therefore, your interpretation is incorrect because to mean as you so stated absolutely causes God to deny himself and prove that he is indeed partial by taking away life. It is impossible for God to deny himself…as the Living God...

For God to remain true to himself and not deny himself would mean the fire only exposes what is in the sinners heart – reaping what they sown – the very ruin, they produced, not non-being. God does not take away life…

Sudsy wrote: Matthew 25:46 - Death by annihilation in the Lake of Fire could certainly be called "eternal punishment" because it is eternal in its consequences. Death on earth is only temporal because everyone will be raised again at the resurrection. Death in the Lake of Fire, however, is eternal: there is no reversing it and no coming back from it.

Punishment means just recompense – what one sows they reap eternally – ruin and rot from their own hearts - in fact the bible states this as so.

If eternal Life is everlasting – same word same grammar – then eternal punishment consist of the same eternality used in same verse. If not, the Eternal life with God is temporal finite also… You violate grammar rules and word meanings defined by clear context…

God places eternity in the heart, God does not take away life, what God does endures forever, God show no partiality toward anyone, He reneges on no gift, or promise, It is impossible for God to deny himself – your doctrine violates all these principles about God; Therefore, your interpretation is incorrect because to mean as you stated causes God to deny himself as well proves him showing partiality in absolute terms if death means annihilation in the lake of fire. It is impossible for God to deny himself…

For God to remain true to himself and not deny himself would mean the fire only exposes what is in the sinners heart – reaping what they sown – the very ruin, they produced, not non-being. God does not take away life…

God’s ways are not ours…

Sudsy wrote: Mark 9:47 - The context from Isaiah 66:24 is this: “And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” The figurative language (fire will never be quenched, their worm will not die) is very strong, but the passage makes it clear that the bodies will be dead. The fire will not be quenched and the worm will not die until it has accomplished its purpose of annihilating finally the wicked—until they are fully, and finally, dead.

What scripture says empathically that these fires will go out when it has accomplished its purpose of annihilating?

So God lies when he says the fire will never be quenched and worm never dies after the fire completes its work – it goes out…Hmmm – This is not what this passage means, or in Mark 9 either, nor implies this in its symbolism either… In the OT in Job 26:5-6 the dead continue on in a living death –reaping what they have sown – note Ez 32 as well… there are others...

God places eternity in the heart, God does not take away life, what God does endures forever, God shows no partiality toward anyone, He reneges on no gift, or promise. It is impossible for God to deny himself – your doctrine violates all these principles about God; Therefore your interpretation is incorrect because to mean as you stated causes God to deny himself and proves that he is partial. It is impossible for God to deny himself…

For God to remain true to himself and not deny himself would mean the destruction only exposes what is in the sinners heart – reaping what they sown – the very ruin, they produced, not non-being. There are verses that speak of this. For example:

You speak that it is unjust to have Infinite punishment for finite sins, yet, would it not be unjust , as well as prove that God denies his own words he spoke in Jeremiah 17:10 - "I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.”

Shall God render unto a petty minor thief the same as an axe murderer - by blasting both off into non-existence? How can God be true to his word and declarations with such an injustice He did by not rendering each according to ones deeds?

God will not deny himself. God does not take away life. God’s ways are not ours...God lives by his own standrads and these he revealed plainly...

Sudsy wrote: Revelation 14:11 - In context look at the 2 preceding verses - A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." (Rev. 14:9-11, emphasis mine +++not God’s)..

"to believe(as many do) that this is a figurative reference to everyone who failed to put their trust in God is to deny the plain language of Scripture that tells us that this is specifically a judgment on those who took the mark of the beast and worshipped him."

Furthermore, the verses clearly state this will take place "in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb." If nothing else, this should be enough to prove that this penalty is not an unending, conscious, torturing one because observing such a punishment is not the way the angels or the Lamb (Jesus Christ) will choose to spend eternity. So the passage appears to say nothing of hell or eternity at all. Instead, it would indicate that those people who are still alive at Christ's second coming who have worshipped the Beast and received his mark will be tormented and destroyed, in the presence of Jesus and the angels, by burning sulfur raining down from Heaven.

Interesting, is not the main thrust of annihilationism the hypothesis that those in heaven will peer at the wicked in hell and be in great misery in heaven seeing such sinners suffer – how cruel annihilationist say – that’ll never be allowed in heaven! Oh those poor people!

Hmmm... it looks like only the Lord and his angels will be looking on from what this verse says. There goes one emotional argument by the wayside.

God places eternity in the heart, God does not take away life, what God does endures forever, God show no partiality toward anyone, He reneges on no gift, or promise, It is impossible for God to deny himself – your doctrine violates all these principles about God; Therefore your interpretation is incorrect because to mean as you stated causes God to deny himself and proves that he is partial. It is impossible for God to deny himself…

For God to remain true to himself and not deny himself would mean the fire only exposes what is in the sinners heart – reaping what they sown – the very ruin, they produced, not non-being. God does not take away life - recompense is forever and ever due to God remaining true to himself and who he is - God.

What God does in matters of justice is forever – his wrath is too… Note:

Revelation 14:11… “And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image”

Taken out of context with Revelations 20:11 misses the point – The language is plain – forever and ever – NO REST DAY OR NIGHT – will meet those in the Lake of fire also. Again, your doctrine proves that God lies by annihilating them if He determines NO REST DAY OR NIGHT along with all those in the Lake of fire as well…

There is NO rest /peace for the wicked says the Lord…

Do you remember that verse? God has his own reasons for this

God’s ways are not our own…

Sudsy wrote: So, if you are trying to 'wow' people with verses and your interpretations, here are some alternate explanations I will put out here in the open.

We are all involved in our attempts to rightly divide the word of truth. And we do see through a glass darkly and this includes you. The apostle Paul admitted to knowing now only in part but I don't see you or B.W. admitting to it.

Will you admit that your 'T' view is an interpretation of scripture and that you are not infallible on this subject ? Infallible meaning that your interpretation is incapable of being wrong. That would be a good first step in you understanding of other views.

So, Sudsy, since you are trying to 'wow' people with verses and your interpretations, here are some alternate explanations I will put out here in the open…

God places eternity in the heart, God does not take away life, what God does endures forever, God show no partiality toward anyone, He reneges on no gift, or promise, It is impossible for God to deny himself – your doctrine violates all these principles about God;.

Therefore your interpretations are incorrect because to mean as you stated absolutely causes God to deny himself and proves that he is partial. It is impossible for God to deny himself…

God’s ways are not our own…neither is his justice
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J.Davis wrote:...we have taken the scripture used by Annihilationist and shown how there use of the scripture contradicts with God’s word. We take the word eternal literality, meaning a true physical existence (in relation to life). We have not minced words and we have keep metaphors and scripture in their respective state.

Ok. Once again, since you take the word eternal literally meaning a true physical existence...

Hebrews 6:1-3 wrote:Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,* and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And God permitting, we will do so.

J.Davis wrote:Ok, So far B.W and I have been able to use full scripture to prove our point,

What does this mean? Really... I suppose you've not been reading the posts, but picking and choosing what to answer to. There have been many uses of "full scripture" (whatever that means...I don't recall the book of Ruth used for your counter points) to base this on.
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B. W. wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:.
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The truth is that the wages of sin is death. Full stop.
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Rom 5:12-14, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

1 Th 1:10 , "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

Ecc 12:6, 7 - "Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well. 7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it."

Ecc 12:14 , "For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil."

Heb 9:27 , "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment"-

So you deny death is the wage of sin? Once to die, then judgement...eternal judgement?
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BavarianWheels wrote:J.Davis wrote:...we have taken the scripture used by Annihilationist and shown how there use of the scripture contradicts with God’s word. We take the word eternal literality, meaning a true physical existence (in relation to life). We have not minced words and we have keep metaphors and scripture in their respective state.

Ok. Once again, since you take the word eternal literally meaning a true physical existence...

Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,* and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And God permitting, we will do so.

Sudsy wrote:why do you take the first part of Mark 9:47 as literal as you do the last part.

Wheels, please keep my statements in context....

I said....

J.Davis wrote:1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

God gives us wisdom and helps us understand his words and his ways. We learn more and more of him as we continue to have fellowship with God. I take the Christian meaning of the scripture literally. And it corresponds perfectly with all other verses.

J.Davis wrote:Ok, So far B.W and I have been able to use full scripture to prove our point,


BavarianWheels wrote:What does this mean? Really... I suppose you've not been reading the posts, but picking and choosing what to answer to. There have been many uses of "full scripture" (whatever that means...I don't recall the book of Ruth used for your counter points) to base this on.

I was referring to the annihilationist link Wheels...

J.Davis wrote:This is a quote from the annihilationist link..

Jude 1:7 says that Sodom and Gomorrah underwent "a punishment of eternal [aionios] fire." It is evident that the fire that destroyed the two cities is eternal, not because of its duration but because of its permanent results.

Notice how they cut out just what they needed...The full scripture reads..

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

What they did, changed the meaning of the scripture.

J.Davis wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:J.Davis wrote:...we have taken the scripture used by Annihilationist and shown how there use of the scripture contradicts with God’s word. We take the word eternal literality, meaning a true physical existence (in relation to life). We have not minced words and we have keep metaphors and scripture in their respective state.

Ok. Once again, since you take the word eternal literally meaning a true physical existence...

Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,* and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And God permitting, we will do so.

Sudsy wrote:why do you take the first part of Mark 9:47 as literal as you do the last part.

Wheels, please keep my statements in context....

I said....

J.Davis wrote:1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

God gives us wisdom and helps us understand his words and his ways. We learn more and more of him as we continue to have fellowship with God. I take the Christian meaning of the scripture literally. And it corresponds perfectly with all other verses.

J.Davis wrote:Ok, So far B.W and I have been able to use full scripture to prove our point,


BavarianWheels wrote:What does this mean? Really... I suppose you've not been reading the posts, but picking and choosing what to answer to. There have been many uses of "full scripture" (whatever that means...I don't recall the book of Ruth used for your counter points) to base this on.

I was referring to the annihilationist link Wheels...

J.Davis wrote:This is a quote from the annihilationist link..

Jude 1:7 says that Sodom and Gomorrah underwent "a punishment of eternal [aionios] fire." It is evident that the fire that destroyed the two cities is eternal, not because of its duration but because of its permanent results.

Notice how they cut out just what they needed...The full scripture reads..

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

What they did, changed the meaning of the scripture.

You conveniently disregard AGAIN, scripture given you. Please address the Hebrews passage above....and notice I don't care to cut out parts, I'm happy to address the whole.
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BavarianWheels wrote:

B. W. wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:.
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The truth is that the wages of sin is death. Full stop.
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Rom 5:12-14, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

1 Th 1:10 , "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

Ecc 12:6, 7 - "Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well. 7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it."

Ecc 12:14 , "For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil."

Heb 9:27 , "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment"-

So you deny death is the wage of sin? Once to die, then judgement...eternal judgement?
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It's as the bible says...
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