Some general questions about Calvinism.

[jlay]

God does use evil, and in a sense create evil. But this is not simply what a Calvinists professes. You are in fact claiming God to be the author of wickedness, sin and evil. Even when he condemns man for it. In the context of Isaiah, man is rebuked for doing evil over and over again. One of the first uses of this word in Isaiah is here, "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Isaiah 5:20
What is the Calvinists doing here but calling evil good.

Lets look at another example. Isaiah 13:11 "And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible."
It is very obvious here, who is atrributed as the author of this evil. And it's not God.

Was the flood evil? In a sense yes. It was a judgement of evil. What about the judgments on Egypt? Evil? They certainly were evil in their effects. But again, these were righteous judgments of good. Not a manufacturing of sin, or the wickedness of men, or Satan.

Was God evil or good in these judgements? They were good, and He was good. They were not authored in that God is evil or wicked. They were the judgment of God upon evil.

Regarding 2nd Samuel. Yes, God did it. What did he do?
You left out verse 9
"Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil (same Hebrew word) in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon."
Who did evil here? God? No.
And so God said, " will raise up evil against you from your own household. Where did the evil come from? From his own house. It already existed. And God raised it up for His purposes to judge.
And God can create evil, in the sense of calamity, distress, adversity, affliction, etc. regarding His judgments. Just as He exposed Absolom's evil.

This concept is best describes in Isaiah 31:2
Yet he also is wise, and will bring evil, and will not call back his words: but will arise against the house of the evildoers, and against the help of them that work iniquity.
Very clearly we see the distinction that God will bring evil upon evildoers. God is not the author of sin. But even he worketh good in all things for His glory. Again we see in Isaiah 47:11
"Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know."
Obviously this is not saying that sin shall come upon thee. Or God made some wickedness to put on you. No, this is judgment coming on what the evil person has sown.
It is even better understood in Isaiah 66:4
"I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not."

If God is the author of such evil, then why would man be condemned for running to it?
"Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths." Isaiah 59:7

All one must do is read in context how Isaiah uses this word, and one can come away without confusion, much less making God out to be Satan himself. This is just another in a long line of examples of proof-texting the scritpure to make it fit a theology, as opposed to one having their theology shaped by the Word. This all again boils down to the determined definition of soverignty by the Calvinists. In their attempt to defend it, they impune it. Because by their own definition of soveriegnty, they are forced to make a God a manufacturer of wickedness, depravity and sin (evil) to fit their framework.

[puritan lad]

No one is arguing than men are responsible for their own evil deeds. We own our sins, and without Christ, will be held accountable for those sins. At the same time, the Scriptures are clear that even man's evil deeds are part of the unchangable divine decree, and that God is sovereignly working to bring about all that happens, for his own glory.

[RickD]

PL, could you show me from scripture, what backs up this statement, please?

We already know that God was sovereignly at work in the most evil act in history, the crucifixion of His own Son.

What I mean is where in the bible does it say that Jesus' death is "evil".

Thanks

[puritan lad]

Is this a rhetorical question?

"You shall not murder." (Exodus 20:13)

"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." (Exodus 20:16)

Jesus answered him, "You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin (evil)." (John 19:11)

"this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless (evil) men." (Acts 2:23)

[RickD]

Is this a rhetorical question?

"You shall not murder." (Exodus 20:13)

"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." (Exodus 20:16)

Jesus answered him, "You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin (evil)." (John 19:11)

"this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless (evil) men." (Acts 2:23)

Not rhetorical. I'm just trying to understand what you meant by your statement. I seem to understand what you meant, coming from your Calvinistic interpretation of "God was sovereignly at work". I'm just trying to see your point of view.

[B. W.]

Great post Jlay!

Would you mind if I use part of this for the Foundations/Discipleship class I teach on at Church for a future lesson?

God does use evil, and in a sense create evil. But this is not simply what a Calvinists professes. You are in fact claiming God to be the author of wickedness, sin and evil. Even when he condemns man for it. In the context of Isaiah, man is rebuked for doing evil over and over again. One of the first uses of this word in Isaiah is here, "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Isaiah 5:20

What is the Calvinists doing here but calling evil good.

Lets look at another example. Isaiah 13:11 "And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible."
It is very obvious here, who is atrributed as the author of this evil. And it's not God.

Was the flood evil? In a sense yes. It was a judgement of evil. What about the judgments on Egypt? Evil? They certainly were evil in their effects. But again, these were righteous judgments of good. Not a manufacturing of sin, or the wickedness of men, or Satan.

Was God evil or good in these judgements? They were good, and He was good. They were not authored in that God is evil or wicked. They were the judgment of God upon evil.

Regarding 2nd Samuel. Yes, God did it. What did he do?

You left out verse 9

"Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil (same Hebrew word) in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon."
Who did evil here? God? No.

And so God said, " will raise up evil against you from your own household. Where did the evil come from? From his own house. It already existed. And God raised it up for His purposes to judge.

And God can create evil, in the sense of calamity, distress, adversity, affliction, etc. regarding His judgments. Just as He exposed Absolom's evil.

This concept is best describes in Isaiah 31:2

Yet he also is wise, and will bring evil, and will not call back his words: but will arise against the house of the evildoers, and against the help of them that work iniquity.

Very clearly we see the distinction that God will bring evil upon evildoers. God is not the author of sin. But even he worketh good in all things for His glory. Again we see in Isaiah 47:11

"Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know."

Obviously this is not saying that sin shall come upon thee. Or God made some wickedness to put on you. No, this is judgment coming on what the evil person has sown.

It is even better understood in Isaiah 66:4

"I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not."

If God is the author of such evil, then why would man be condemned for running to it?

"Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths." Isaiah 59:7

All one must do is read in context how Isaiah uses this word, and one can come away without confusion, much less making God out to be Satan himself. This is just another in a long line of examples of proof-texting the scritpure to make it fit a theology, as opposed to one having their theology shaped by the Word. This all again boils down to the determined definition of soverignty by the Calvinists. In their attempt to defend it, they impune it. Because by their own definition of soveriegnty, they are forced to make a God a manufacturer of wickedness, depravity and sin (evil) to fit their framework.

[jlay]

Sure.

[DannyM]

We are justified "by" faith, not "because of" faith. Faith is the means of our justification, not the cause. Since faith itself is a gift of God, we are still back to unconditional election.

This follows from Eph 2:8-9

However it doesn't grammatically follow in this verse that faith is the gift. Salvation is the gift. It is by God's grace that it is offered, and through the faith/belief/trust in God's provision that it is received.

The Calvinists equates faith to a pre-programmed trait, implanted by God.

J,

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

If we really want to be strict couldn't we say that God is the gift? It is not a gift from God, but rather the gift of God...?

[B. W.]

We are justified "by" faith, not "because of" faith. Faith is the means of our justification, not the cause. Since faith itself is a gift of God, we are still back to unconditional election.

This follows from Eph 2:8-9

However it doesn't grammatically follow in this verse that faith is the gift. Salvation is the gift. It is by God's grace that it is offered, and through the faith/belief/trust in God's provision that it is received.

The Calvinists equates faith to a pre-programmed trait, implanted by God.

J,

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

If we really want to be strict couldn't we say that God is the gift? It is not a gift from God, but rather the gift of God...?

It looks like you should...

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." ESV
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[jlay]

BW. Good point. I was merely speaking regarding the grammar, but this point can't be overlooked. The gift is salvation, which is all tied into the being of Christ, His life, death and resurrection. So, yes, the gift is Christ.