Evidence for God from Science

Daniel, I understand that you should stand up for what you believe in when your rights and beliefs are interfered with/infringed upon. But no one says you have to partake in homosexual encounters. The Bible also says not to judge others even if they commit sin, because all sins are equal and we all sin. So the ultra-militant "Being gay is evil and should be illegal" are hypocrites because I guarantee you that they sin too. I guess my point is that you should speak out more when someone tries to restrict or interfere with your beliefs, not for the sake of judging other people's sins. The first one is within your right and power as a human. The second should be for one being only according to your faith, and He is not of this world.

The Bible also says not to judge others even if they commit sin, because all sins are equal and we all sin

Actually that is not what the Bible says, it says to take the log from your own eye before trying to take the splinter from your brothers eye. Matthew 7:3
We are also taught to judge the sin and to speak out against it but not to condemn the sinner, that will be God's final judgement.


Dan

Here is a link to some discussion on whether we can make judgements or not http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 10&t=35547

Ivellious wrote:"Being gay is evil and should be illegal"

Well... Biblically-speaking, homosexuality is evil. Homosexuality, however, isn't illegal and that isn't what most Christians are asking for. What we are asking for (if I can speak for more than myself) is to prevent homosexual marriage, because many of us feel that it is a contradiction of terms and a government intrusion on the Christian definition of marriage.

That's a common misunderstanding with regard to judgement. There are two issues as I understand them behind Jesus' statement. One that I do affirm and believe is that we're not to individually attempt to play God in the sense that we declare who is or isn't saved. Salvation is an issue that only God can see the heart of the person and know the state of their spirit with regard to their salvation.

In terms of moral behavior, what Jesus is speaking of here is hypocrisy. I certainly believe and have stated here on several occassions that just as Jesus had his most consistent and most negative things to say during his earthly ministry to those religious people who used religion to raise themselves even as they lowered others, so too do I believe those situations still exist today and not least in how many within the Christian community specifically isolate and target homosexuals as if there is not heterosexual sin in abundance within our own "camp." The message that gets sent, whether it's intended or not to many in the Gay/Lesbian community is that God hates them and rejects them on the basis of who they are in this realm and I believe that is indeed sending a message that is completely inconsistent with the God and Jesus I know and love. I am no better than anyone else in this world in terms of how much God loves me nor am I better because those areas I struggle with in sin in my life are somehow more "acceptable" than others.

As has been mentioned, judging not lest we be judged doesn't mean that we don't identify behaviors that are sin and call them that. We're simply not to be hypocrites in doing it by failing to include ourselves in those observations whether we're specifically involved in the behavior or not. To put it in crass terms, we're not to believe that somehow our poop doesn't stink.

Today's culture of utilitarianism and post-modern tolerance of all positions picks up on this saying of Christ and asserts it as if Jesus himself is utilitarian and universally approving of all human behavior to the point where Jesus no longer recognizes sin. That is simply not true. Jesus indeed is far more loving and accepting of people than many religious people understand and present sadly. But just as Jesus in John 8, accepted and defended the woman taken in adultery from her accusers (religious people) he concluded by offering her forgiveness and sending her on her way with the admonition (or encouragement if you prefer that word) to "go and sin no more."

Ivellious wrote:Gman, I totally respect your opinion on the matter. As far as I'm concerned, I don't think anyone has any real business trying to dictate or regulate what one consenting adult does with another (as long is it's all legal). If you disagree with homosexuality, don't have sex with someone of your own gender.

Not when it effects others... That is why it shouldn't be practiced..

Ivellious wrote: Why can't it be that simple? If you believe in a Christian God who hates gay people, be my guest, just let your God do that talking when you die and let everyone be themselves.

Again.. No one hates gays here... No one. Only the act.. And I'm a sinner too.

So we are all literally all together on this....

Ivellious wrote: If two gay men have sex, how does that hurt you? It really doesn't. So I just don't understand why so many Christians in this country are so damn militant about making it illegal, when their own religion says to let them be and let God be the judge later.

There are many reasons... It's a killer for one thing and promotes psychological and spiritual problems.

When does two men or two women having consensual sex when you don't even know that it is happening hurt you?

And how does being gay kill?

Ivellious wrote:When does two men or two women having consensual sex when you don't even know that it is happening hurt you?

I wouldn't condone any "consensual sex" unless they are married anyhow. It also states clearly in the Bible what marriage is, and so I would conclude that it doesn't matter who I or you think it "hurts".

But I also get the understanding from your previous posts you do not adhere to Biblical teachings or Revelations.
If this assumption is a bit off the mark I apologize. If not, I would implore you to open yourself up to this matter more, as you may discover your above question gets into the issue of morality. An idea that someone who doesn't believe in God has not much use for.

May I ask what is your view of the world and its origin/purpose?


By the way ~ I underlined the above to show how a number of atrocious sexual acts can be replaced in that section of the question. How do we account for an answer to any number of possibilities? What if "When does rape..." was instead inserted?

God Bless friend. I respect your additions to these discussions, as they are intelligent and respectful.

I doubt that homosexuality is genetic. If it is genetic, why have the sexual orientations of some identical twins differed from those of their twins?

Ivellious wrote:When does two men or two women having consensual sex when you don't even know that it is happening hurt you?

And how does being gay kill?

The act of homosexuality is sinful and can lead to spiritual death, a gay couple wouldn't set a good example for any children they decide to have and could lead them into spiritual death as well. In my opinion according to my beliefs as dictated by God there is people that could be harmed by being bought up in a gay family just in the same way as any sin can negatively affect people. 1 Corinthians 6:18 explains to us that sexual sin is very damaging to ourselves, it is different from any other sin in this way and should be avoided at all costs and I am sure there are many more verses on this subject.


Dan

Well, consensual sex is defined as two adults choosing (free of substances or coercion) to engage in a sexual activity. Rape certainly doesn't fall under that, nor does pedophilia. I could also replace that with "when does burning people at the cross..." but that's completely irrelevant to the statement I made. Of course I couldn't support rape, but gay sex is not automatically rape is it?

My point is, even if it is considered morally wrong to you, why does it really matter to you personally that it's happening? I guarantee you that somewhere in this country it is happening right now, but I doubt that you would really be harmed, damaged, or even give it any thought unless someone was doing it right in front of you. My point is that what people do in private (so long as it doesn't hurt anybody) is really none of our business, and that if you don't like it, then don't partake. Let God handle it later, don't try to infringe on other peoples' privacy and rights just because you get flustered over the thought.

Also, it's not a matter of "condoning" it. Again, you don't have to, and if you don't spend your time thinking on it, you'll never be any worse off. I don't condone my friend smoking, but that's his problem, you know? I'm not going to regulate his perfectly legal actions, even if it bugs me or I'm offended by it. Maybe someday it'll bite him in the rear, but that's not my judgement to make for him.

The issue of morality being inherently related to God doesn't work for me. Of course I have morals even if I don't believe every word of the Bible as law. Buddhists don't believe in your God and their morals are probably stronger than nearly every Christian in this country. So don't tell me that my morals are false or that I don't have them/can't understand them unless I'm a diehard Christian.

My worldview is basically that I don't know everything...I don't know how the universe began. Maybe it was the big bang, maybe some deity magically conjured it into existence. Scientifically speaking, we can put together a logical and evidence based history of Earth. I won't go into the whole thing, but it's there. Maybe it was random, maybe something guided it, but I believe that 4.6 billion years ago or so, the planet we live on was born. Purpose is more philosophical to me. I think that's hard to explain. I don't think that I'm a servant or anything, I believe I have total free will and my purpose is undefined so to speak. I don't know if we have purposes...do we all have singular, unique purposes? Are there several possibilities that each person could fulfill? Maybe our purpose is for each individual to decide and guide throughout their life? I figure, if there is some deity or higher power, that being's plan is likely way past my or any other human's comprehension, so putting a meaning in terms of "God" and what he wants is a losing battle. I guess by that I mean I or anyone else can think as much as we want but never truly understand such a question, so while it might be fun to discuss, it's not a concern of mine.

That was a mouthful haha, I could ramble on that forever.

Ivellious wrote:When does two men or two women having consensual sex when you don't even know that it is happening hurt you?

And how does being gay kill?

Here's a link to a doctor's article about the health risks of homosexual sex.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articl ... o0075.html

I care about what others do because I care about them, too.

But that still has no effect on you. Gay men understand the risks just like someone who smokes. That's not your concern to police their lives. Besides, I doubt most people who want to put a ban on gay people are seriously interested in the health of the gay people they desire to oppress.

Ivellious wrote:But that still has no effect on you. Gay men understand the risks just like someone who smokes. That's not your concern to police their lives. Besides, I doubt most people who want to put a ban on gay people are seriously interested in the health of the gay people they desire to oppress.

Read my last post, this is one of many reasons Christians oppose homosexual marriage as we believe it has a direct effect on other people.

Ivellious wrote:When does two men or two women having consensual sex when you don't even know that it is happening hurt you?

And how does being gay kill?

1. God created man for women and the woman for man Genesis 2:24. Ultimately God knows what works best for both the believer and unbeliever, not the world.. It is sinful according to God Lev 18:22-23, Lev 20:13, 1 Tim 1:9-10, Rom 1:26-27. Therefore would you want an unbeliever to waste themselves away in sin or possibly go to hell for it? I really don't think anyone would.. Also beware, we will be judged on how we handle this issue..

2. Regardless what the Bible says about it, it's a perverted lifestyle.. And I can't consciously vote for something that I think could harm someone. The body was not designed for doing things that they shouldn't belong. Despite what the liberal media says about it, this type of lifestyle...

1. Eliminates procreation.
2. It promotes diseases (some deadly). See here.
3. Many forms of sexual behavior prevent blood from being accepted through the Red Cross and other agencies.
4. It destroys traditional male/female family units.
5. It could promote polygamy and other alternatives to one-man, one-woman unions. One being man-boy perverted unions. (NAMBLA)
6. Public schools in the nation will be required to teach that this perversion is the moral equivalent of traditional marriage between a man and a woman.
7. Courts will not be able to favor a traditional family involving one man and one woman over a homosexual couple in matters of adoption.
8. Promotes psychiatric, mental and emotional disorders. See here.
9. Raises insurance costs for everyone.
10. Children will be placed in homes with parents representing only one sex on an equal basis with those having a mom and a dad.

Bottom line, it shouldn't be supported for any reason...

Source: http://www.nogaymarriage.com/tenarguments.asp