Atheists are hard to convert

[DannyM]

How can we know we are saved?

Rom. 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

There. We can know we are saved.

How can we know we have assurance?

John 6:37,39,40
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

There. We can know we have assurance.

[Byblos]

How can we know we are saved?

Rom. 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

There. We can know we are saved.

How can we know we have assurance?

John 6:37,39,40
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

There. We can know we have assurance.

Danny, there are countless people who professed (past tense) those exact words to later become apostates and worse. What do you say about them? Well of course, they had no root, they were never saved. To which I ask again, where does that leave the assurance they thought they had?

Sorry Danny, but whether you want to see or not, you believe in perseverance as much as I do. It's just a matter of semantics and terminology.

[RickD]

Byblos, I'll explain my belief about absolute assurance. I'm not sure if it falls under one of the 3 you listed.

Absolute assurance of salvation, given to the true believer who has received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This believer, is preserved, by the power of God, in the person of the Holy Spirit, indwelling him. The pledge of God's promise, that will not be revoked, by God.
The condition of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, is necessary, for absolute assurance.

Danny wrote:

Rom. 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children

This is the key, IMO, to how I can have absolute assurance, that I have God's absolute assurance.
God's Spirit inside of me, speaks to my spirit, and testifies that God has provided absolute assurance. Now, there is no way that I can know for sure, that someone else has the indwelling of the HS, and absolute assurance. But, I do know, that I do.
Byblos, don't you have the indwelling HS of God, testifying to your spirit, that you are a child of God, bought by the work of Christ?

[RickD]

Danny, there are countless people who professed (past tense) those exact words to later become apostates and worse. What do you say about them? Well of course, they had no root, they were never saved. To which I ask again, where does that leave the assurance they thought they had?

Thinking that I have absolute assurance, because the bible says that I, as a believer have it, is one thing. But knowing I have absolute assurance, because the bible says so, and I have the witness of the HS in me, is a completely different thing. Someone who is an apostate, could possibly assume he has assurance, because he believes he is a true believer. But, once the HS moves in someone, it is unmistakable.
Absolute assurance comes from God, is promised in scripture, and testified to us, by the indwelling of the HS. If the HS is not testifying, then there is no absolute assurance. There may be a false belief of assurance, however.

[DannyM]

3, is very simple, it is OSAS with absolute, unconditional, irrevocable assurance NO MATTER WHAT.
If a person is sincere in believing he was saved, there ain't no amount of nothin' that can prove he actually wasn't. He could go on to profess satanism and commit unspeakable atrocities and he still would be saved. In this camp, there is no proving he wasn't saved or testing anything, period, done.

Love the “If a person is sincere in believing he was saved” bit, brother John. Nice get-out. But still ambiguous. Sincere how? In his own mind? Or are you actually saying “genuine believer”, like we are?

1 Corinthians 1:8-9
8 He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

Bang goes the Satanism and unspeakable atrocities. Or can we interpret “keep us strong” to mean we might enter into Satanism or go on a murdering rampage?

[DannyM]

Danny, there are countless people who professed (past tense) those exact words to later become apostates and worse. What do you say about them? Well of course, they had no root, they were never saved. To which I ask again, where does that leave the assurance they thought they had?

John, what I would say to them is sorry but you are either deluded about that or lying to me. I trust the bible, John. I trust the words of the Saviour.

Sorry Danny, but whether you want to see or not, you believe in perseverance as much as I do. It's just a matter of semantics and terminology.

Absolutely I believe in perseverence, brother. I believe the power of the Spirit gives us that perseverence. Man, you and me, bro ?

Praise Chrst, and glory to Him in the highest!

[DannyM]

Thus conversation is going as similar conversations have gone for ages. There are texts that when isolated and used with others can build a case for either a hyper-grace position or a hyper-works position and number of other positions along the spectrum.

I don't know that I can resolve this to everyone's satisfaction but I think when we step back a lot of thus has to do with how we view the character of God. I'll expand mire later but I just wanted to throw that out to prompt some thought.

I disagree. Either we have assurance or we do not have assurance. Nothing "hyper" about it.

I'm not sure that's what Bart is saying, Danny. I believe Bart is saying that someone can take certain verses in scripture, isolate them, and make a case for one extreme or the other, or anything in between. Danny, you and I and jlay, certainly have differing views about predestination, but the three of us all believe in absolute assurance for the true child of God. There are also others, that believe in predestination, closer to what jlay and I believe, but, they don't believe in absolute assurance. I think, maybe Bart is going to try to show us how our beliefs are affected by our view of God's character.

Okay. Sorry if I misread you, Bart. Of course anyone can do that.

[Byblos]

3, is very simple, it is OSAS with absolute, unconditional, irrevocable assurance NO MATTER WHAT.
If a person is sincere in believing he was saved, there ain't no amount of nothin' that can prove he actually wasn't. He could go on to profess satanism and commit unspeakable atrocities and he still would be saved. In this camp, there is no proving he wasn't saved or testing anything, period, done.

Love the “If a person is sincere in believing he was saved” bit, brother John. Nice get-out. But still ambiguous. Sincere how? In his own mind? Or are you actually saying “genuine believer”, like we are?

1 Corinthians 1:8-9
8 He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

Bang goes the Satanism and unspeakable atrocities. Or can we interpret “keep us strong” to mean we might enter into Satanism or go on a murdering rampage?

There may be a false belief of assurance, however.

If there is a false belief, then satanism and atrocities are still a possibility. This person who had the false belief, at the time he had it he also believed he was indwelt with the HS who was testifying for him, he thought he had absolute assurance. Some absolute assurance it turned to be when he discovered he had none.

[Byblos]

Sorry Danny, but whether you want to see or not, you believe in perseverance as much as I do. It's just a matter of semantics and terminology.

Absolutely I believe in perseverence, brother. I believe the power of the Spirit gives us that perseverence. Man, you and me, bro ?

Praise Chrst, and glory to Him in the highest!

That is good enough for me brother.

[RickD]

If there is a false belief, then satanism and atrocities are still a possibility. This person who had the false belief, at the time he had it he also believed he was indwelt with the HS who was testifying for him, he thought he had absolute assurance. Some absolute assurance it turned to be when he discovered he had none.

Yikes, Byblos, do you have a specific person in mind here? How could you even come to this conclusion? Why would you assume, that a false believer, who would only be known as that when he faced God, would believe he had the witness of the HS in him?
How could you even know that an apostate would think he had the indwelling HS, as opposed to that apostate just believing he had assurance, because the bible says so?

[Byblos]

If there is a false belief, then satanism and atrocities are still a possibility. This person who had the false belief, at the time he had it he also believed he was indwelt with the HS who was testifying for him, he thought he had absolute assurance. Some absolute assurance it turned to be when he discovered he had none.

Yikes, Byblos, do you have a specific person in mind here? How could you even come to this conclusion? Why would you assume, that a false believer, who would only be known as that when he faced God, would believe he had the witness of the HS in him?
How could you even know that an apostate would think he had the indwelling HS, as opposed to that apostate just believing he had assurance, because the bible says so?

Come on Rick, are you serious? The world is full of so-called Christians who either convert to different religions or become atheists.

Perfect example: Atheist after 40 years a Christian Minister

[DannyM]

Some absolute assurance it turned to be when he discovered he had none.

John, I know what you’re saying. But in such a case it is quite apparent that the person never had assurance, never was saved. So, although (for argument’s sake) some person thought they were saved, the truth of the matter (and the truth of the bible) remains, and they never really did have this assurance. I just don’t see how we can question such a strong biblical doctrine on the basis of some person’s confusion (or perhaps delusion). So the doctrine of assurance remains unscathed, and some person’s phantom assurance must surely be dismissed. Someone who ‘suddenly’ does not have the Spirit, obviously never had the Spirit. How can we let this (let's call it a mistake) muddy biblical waters?

Sorry Danny, but whether you want to see or not, you believe in perseverance as much as I do. It's just a matter of semantics and terminology.

Absolutely I believe in perseverence, brother. I believe the power of the Spirit gives us that perseverence. Man, you and me, bro ?

Praise Chrst, and glory to Him in the highest!

That is good enough for me brother.

[RickD]

If there is a false belief, then satanism and atrocities are still a possibility. This person who had the false belief, at the time he had it he also believed he was indwelt with the HS who was testifying for him, he thought he had absolute assurance. Some absolute assurance it turned to be when he discovered he had none.

Yikes, Byblos, do you have a specific person in mind here? How could you even come to this conclusion? Why would you assume, that a false believer, who would only be known as that when he faced God, would believe he had the witness of the HS in him?
How could you even know that an apostate would think he had the indwelling HS, as opposed to that apostate just believing he had assurance, because the bible says so?

Come on Rick, are you serious? The world is full of so-called Christians who either convert to different religions or become atheists.

Perfect example: Atheist after 40 years a Christian Minister

Byblos, that is a great example of someone who thought he was a Christian, but never was a true Christian.

This was my life and ministry for over 28 years, but all during this time I was struggling to maintain my faith. I had so many questions about the Bible and its teachings. I kept suspecting that Christianity really didn't "work." I mean, prayer didn't really work. Faith didn't make me a new person. My old "sins" were still plaguing me. I rarely sensed any "presence of God" in my life. I looked for God's guidance, but rarely was sure I got it. And even then it often turned out to be patently erroneous. I experienced church and missions from the inside and became very disillusioned with it. For an enterprise headed by the God of the universe, it sure was awfully human, and terribly fallible. I really saw precious little that could be called "evidence of God" in it all.

Where is the indwelling HS testifying to him?

Finally, after 28 years overseas, I came to that place where I just could no longer consider myself a believer. I could no longer represent Jesus and the Bible, as my missions agency called on me to do. Honesty demanded that I quit the ministry and return Stateside.

He couldn't believe in something, that, in his spiritually discerned mind, was incomprehensible.

Again, it gets back to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Or lack, thereof, in this case.

THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE, UNLESS THERE IS AN INDWELLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT!!!!!

Where did the author claim he had absolute assurance of salvation, anyways?

[Byblos]

If there is a false belief, then satanism and atrocities are still a possibility. This person who had the false belief, at the time he had it he also believed he was indwelt with the HS who was testifying for him, he thought he had absolute assurance. Some absolute assurance it turned to be when he discovered he had none.

Yikes, Byblos, do you have a specific person in mind here? How could you even come to this conclusion? Why would you assume, that a false believer, who would only be known as that when he faced God, would believe he had the witness of the HS in him?
How could you even know that an apostate would think he had the indwelling HS, as opposed to that apostate just believing he had assurance, because the bible says so?

Come on Rick, are you serious? The world is full of so-called Christians who either convert to different religions or become atheists.

Perfect example: Atheist after 40 years a Christian Minister

Byblos, that is a great example of someone who thought he was a Christian, but never was a true Christian.

This was my life and ministry for over 28 years, but all during this time I was struggling to maintain my faith. I had so many questions about the Bible and its teachings. I kept suspecting that Christianity really didn't "work." I mean, prayer didn't really work. Faith didn't make me a new person. My old "sins" were still plaguing me. I rarely sensed any "presence of God" in my life. I looked for God's guidance, but rarely was sure I got it. And even then it often turned out to be patently erroneous. I experienced church and missions from the inside and became very disillusioned with it. For an enterprise headed by the God of the universe, it sure was awfully human, and terribly fallible. I really saw precious little that could be called "evidence of God" in it all.

Where is the indwelling HS testifying to him?

Finally, after 28 years overseas, I came to that place where I just could no longer consider myself a believer. I could no longer represent Jesus and the Bible, as my missions agency called on me to do. Honesty demanded that I quit the ministry and return Stateside.

He couldn't believe in something, that, in his spiritually discerned mind, was incomprehensible.

Again, it gets back to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Or lack, thereof, in this case.

THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE, UNLESS THERE IS AN INDWELLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT!!!!!

Where did the author claim he had absolute assurance of salvation, anyways?

He was a Christian preacher for 40 years Rick.

[B. W.]

...He was a Christian preacher for 40 years Rick.

Living in a garage does not make you a car…either…

Mat 7:22, 23

2 Co 11:26 NKJV

Gal 2:4

2 Co 2:11 ESV
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