Page 12 of 21

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:36 am
by MAGSolo
PaulSacramento wrote:
MAGSolo wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Sometimes people who think that have done "nothing wrong", have a hard time accepting forgiveness.
Are you going to get back to me about my question of the bible being inspired by God or have you given up on that?
Since it seems that ANY type of research seems out of the question for you ( though it seems you have done it to "attack" Christianity), I will answer your question.
You asked:
Why I believe the bible to be the inspired word of God, yes?
ANd of course you did NOT answer my question as to how YOU define "inspired by God" Correct?
No, I defined it. I said:
Since the bible is called "The Word of God", I define inspired by God as God talked to them and told them what to write. What evidence is there that God talked to bible writers directly and they wrote what he told them to?

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:40 am
by MAGSolo
PaulSacramento wrote:Personally, I believe that the writers of the various books and letters and poems in the bible were inspired by God to write about God.
Some, like Isaiah and John of Patmos for example, were under the influence of the HS when they wrote.
Of course being humans and writing to humans, they "put down" what they did to best convey the message from God.
The did that under the context of what they were writing, the genre and to whom they were writing.
I think its pretty obvious what you believe. My question is why do you believe it? What evidence do you have to support either a belief or claim that any part of the bible was inspired by God? If you believe it you must have a reason for believing it. Or do you believe it simply because you never actually questioned it?

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:52 am
by PaulSacramento
MAGSolo wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Personally, I believe that the writers of the various books and letters and poems in the bible were inspired by God to write about God.
Some, like Isaiah and John of Patmos for example, were under the influence of the HS when they wrote.
Of course being humans and writing to humans, they "put down" what they did to best convey the message from God.
The did that under the context of what they were writing, the genre and to whom they were writing.
I think its pretty obvious what you believe. My question is why do you believe it? What evidence do you have to support either a belief or claim that any part of the bible was inspired by God? If you believe it you must have a reason for believing it. Or do you believe it simply because you never actually questioned it?
Oh, I understand your question now.
Sorry, I was under the impression it was a general question not a "Me in specific question".
To answer it then:
4 years of personal research + 3 years into a Bach. In Theology.
That is what has given me reason to believe what I believe.
If there is one thing I have always done AND do to this day, is QUESTION everything about the bible and religion.
What I do NEVER question is my Faith in Christ.

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:59 am
by MAGSolo
I wonder if I am wrong for asking these questions. I wonder if God actually does exist if he is angry at me for doubting and losing faith. Are we supposed to just put our heads down and steamroll ahead with blind faith despite legitimate objections and questions we have. Why would God want us to do that? There is always a small part of me that believes, that there has to be a God. I would rather me not believe in God, be wrong and go to hell than to be right and there actually be no God, meaning that all human pain and suffering is for nothing. I would rather God come back right now while I am in the middle of denying his existence than for me to be right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy6nhjAR52o

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:06 am
by PaulSacramento
MAGSolo wrote:I wonder if I am wrong for asking these questions. I wonder if God actually does exist if he is angry at me for doubting and losing faith. Are we supposed to just put our heads down and steamroll ahead with blind faith despite legitimate objections and questions we have. Why would God want us to do that? There is always a small part of me that believes, that there has to be a God. I would rather me not believe in God, be wrong and go to hell than to be right and there actually be no God, meaning that all human pain and suffering is for nothing. I would rather God come back right now while I am in the middle of denying his existence than for me to be right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy6nhjAR52o
God does NOT want "blind" faith.

If God does exist, do you realize what that means? What kind of being God would be?

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:09 am
by MAGSolo
No I dont know what it means and I dont know what kind of being God would be.

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:12 am
by PaulSacramento
MAGSolo wrote:No I dont know what it means and I dont know what kind of being God would be.
That kind of is the point my friend.
We CAN'T imagine what kind of being God is.

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:26 am
by neo-x
Wow, so I take the time to thoroughly respond to literally every one of your points, you ignore them, summarily claim that my argument is "invalid because of a lot of factors" and then bow out of the discussion. At least make a an attempt to address the points I made. Thats honestly very pathetic on your part.
Mag, I am not going to be drawn into a "oh, I did respond to every point" race, frankly you can have that crown if it satisfies you. Did I not make an attempt to address your points? wow, I guess you have a small screen or you just can't see my posts cuz I think I went with you pretty much in detail. Intellectual dishonesty is quite easy to spot, if not that then its just ignorance at its best, neither however impress me very much. You only addressed points from where you actually off-shoot more trails and even further questions. Rather than answering to objections I found in your argument you either went back to your assertions or just plainly avoided the implications. That IMO tends to summarize a majority of your posts. You may not like my answers, you refuse to dive into the studies that show how the apparent problems aren't really problems. You flat out refuse to acknowledge that the logic you used was problematic, even when I showed it to you multiple times. Its pathetic only because you lack the competency to back up your argument.

As I said you may not like my answers, but that is the only answer you are going to get, so no need to waste your emotions on me, save it, you will need it to assert further opinions of yours.

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:48 am
by MAGSolo
neo-x wrote:
Wow, so I take the time to thoroughly respond to literally every one of your points, you ignore them, summarily claim that my argument is "invalid because of a lot of factors" and then bow out of the discussion. At least make a an attempt to address the points I made. Thats honestly very pathetic on your part.
Mag, I am not going to be drawn into a "oh, I did respond to every point" race, frankly you can have that crown if it satisfies you. Did I not make an attempt to address your points?
You made an initial attempt and then when I addressed every last one of your attempts and you saw he could no longer defend your position, you backed out of the discussion

wow, I guess you have a small screen or you just can't see my posts cuz I think I went with you pretty much in detail. Intellectual dishonesty is quite easy to spot, if not that then its just ignorance at its best, neither however impress me very much. You only addressed points from where you actually off-shoot more trails and even further questions.
Wrong, I addressed each and every point you made directly, you are making stuff up.
Rather than answering to objections I found in your argument you either went back to your assertions or just plainly avoided the implications.
Wrong, I answered every single one of your objections, you are making stuff up
That IMO tends to summarize a majority of your posts. You may not like my answers, you refuse to dive into the studies that show how the apparent problems aren't really problems.
You have not been able to tell me yourself how they arent problems
You flat out refuse to acknowledge that the logic you used was problematic,
You have not shown it to be problematic
even when I showed it to you multiple times. Its pathetic only because you lack the competency to back up your argument.
I addressed everything you said, and seeing that I addressed it you just decided to bow out of the discussion.
Its pathetic only because you lack the competency to back up your argument.
I backed it up and having no rebuttal, you bowed out of the discussion

As I said you may not like my answers, but that is the only answer you are going to get, so no need to waste your emotions on me, save it, you will need it to assert further opinions of yours.
I think your accusations here are flat out false. You are literally just making stuff up. There is not a single point or objection that you brought up that I did not address. Then when I asked you tough questions to support claims you made, you just decided you were through with the discussion.

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:50 am
by MAGSolo
dp

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:03 pm
by MAGSolo
nm

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:09 pm
by PaulSacramento
I remember discussing with an atheist about the issue of God "not doing anything".
He was willing to concede that God shouldn't step in ofr every "little: thing but said that in regards to the "big stuff" God should, case in point: the Nazis.
SO I asked if he'd been OK with God stepping in a killing the Nazi's or killing Hitler.
He said under the circumstances, yes.
I reminded him of his issues when, in the bible, God does just that - Step in a kill.

You can't have it both ways.

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:12 pm
by jlay
Mag,
I hope to find the time to repsond to each one of your replies to my last post. Time is tight right now. I will say, in my initial reading it does answer a lot of questions, and I think reveals why you may be having the doubts you are. Instead of beating around the bush I will just give you my two sense. I think two of your main problems are very common and are pride and ignorance. Now don't take that the wrong way, because I can honestly say the same thing about myself. If we are ignorant of the reasons, then yes, this can create problems such as frustration, doubt. Pride comes before a fall. When you make statements such as 'nothing you could say would change my mind.' Or, your just generally antagonistic. For example, when you ask a question and say, "how does your fairy tale god........" It's question begging, and tells me you have no real interest in getting an answer.

Let's look at some of the misconceptions.
No, but God is ultimately responsible for all of our existences. We are supposedly all Gods children so just as I will provide for any child I produce since I made that child and am responsible for it. God is responsible for each and every child on earth because all children are Gods children and as such he should provide for all of his children.
Mag, where does the Bible say we are all God's children? Hint, it doesn't.
Nothing personal but I've yet to see any argument as to why your opinion should be the case.
Let's suppose I held a gun to your head and forced you to do something against your will, would I be good? Or, let's say I had the ability to reprogram your brain to always do what I liked, and in turn your own will was erased. Would I be good?
should provide for children I create on the basis that they cannot do so themselves and I love them and am responsible for them.
I asked you why you SHOULD. So, what if you had children you didn't love? And if you did "love" them, account for what love is and why it should matter. And, the fact they can't do it themselves is really inconsequential to the question I am asking. Your answer assumes something about how we SHOULD treat the needy. I'm asking you to account for those assumptions.
Humans simply have the capacity to understand and empathize with the implications of starvation. Really from a theistic perspective I would think they should be happy to let them starve since that only means they get to be with God that much quicker. But it seems that there is something within us that seems to understand the finality of death and therefore we seek to prevent it and delay it as long as possible. Life is so precious to so many because we feel that this is all there is, so many of the most ardent believers do their best to delay it even though the next world and life is supposedly much better than this one. So while we should welcome death and an end to this mortal life gladly, are instincts betray us and we seek to live as long as possible because instinctualy we dont believe there is anything after this.
Yes, we know humans have the capacity. They also have the capacity to ignore, dismiss and even impose starvation on others. In fact most starvation in the world could be ended today, if people exercised the capacity of compassion. You've already told us you are only really worried about the ones you father. But you've yet to answer why compassion is better? The fact that humans have capacity for it, doesn't answer why they should volitionally choose it. You see, you keep smuggling in objective morality to make your case. You keep assuming what is right and wrong, good and bad, yet you refuse to account for it.
Next, you say life is precious. You make a misstatement. You should say, life seems precious. If your new worldview is correct, you already said we (humanity) are nothing special.

I wouldnt say its evil to ignore, and if I did I retract that statement. I think its wrong to ignore suffering but I dont think its necessarily evil. In the same way that cheating on a test is wrong but its not evil to me. You shouldnt cheat on tests and you shouldnt ignore suffering that you can prevent but not doing so doesnt make you evil to me, but it does make you wrong.
We are just mincing words here. Let's get some clarity. When you say it is wrong to ignore suffering what do you mean? According to...? Again, I see you smuggling in objective morality. You keep saying you SHOULDN'T cheat. You SHOULDN'T do this, or that. Shouldn't according to what?
My argument is that if angels can exist in heaven without suffering and evil and God made angels, and suffering and evil will not be issues when we are in heaven, then it doesnt make sense to act like there are no conditions God could create where suffering and evil wont be issues. You are acting like suffering and evil are basic requirements of mere existence. You are acting like God could not have created intelligent, self-aware beings without evil and suffering being an issue, but then we will apparently be intelligent and self aware in heaven and evil and suffering wont be an issue. If God can make it not an issue in heaven, why cant he do it here on Earth? If God could make any world where suffering and evil are not issues then why would he make one where suffering and evil are issues?
So, you don't understand that Satan was an angel, and that others rebelled with him?

Much in the same way that a good parent tries hard to provide for and protect their children from unnecessary suffering (such as starving to death),
There you go again. You smuggle in good and provide, and you've yet to account for any of those having true merit in your worldview. That is what I mean by you have to presume God to deny Him. The words good, better, should all presume a standard. A standard that says this way is superior to another. I want to know, apart from the Christian God, how are you measuring such things?? If you can't answer these questions, then there is absolutely no point going forward.
Why does there need to be a God for me to be concerned? I would say Im concerned simply because I have the mental capacity to be concerned. Dogs arent concerned with starving children because they dont have the capacity to do so. It is simply a product of having higher thought processes.
There has to a be an objective moral standard outside yourself for "concern" or "love" or "should" or any of this to actually matter. Otherwise, it is all an accident of nature. Humans have no more intrinsic value than pond scum. And 'concern' is just and illusion of a material universe. A cosmic joke of which you are the butt end. You couldn't say that concern is better than indifference. But you don't. You keep telling us and God what we should do.
BTW, Dogs care for their children. However, it's very unlikely they have the same conscious capacity as humans.
I think your accusations here are flat out false. You are literally just making stuff up. There is not a single point or objection that you brought up that I did not address. Then when I asked you tough questions to support claims you made, you just decided you were through with the discussion.
Would that be wrong of Neo? :pound:

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:27 pm
by MAGSolo
jlay, before we get into all that, can you tell me why you believe the bible to be the word of God?

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:28 pm
by PaulSacramento
MAGSolo wrote:jlay, before we get into all that, can you tell me why you believe the bible to be the word of God?
You keep asking for personal opinions, does that mean you accept them as valid answers to your questions?