The Law

[neo-x]

Gman » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:32 am

neo-x wrote:
As history, theology or context is concerned I don't think we need to separate anything, as practical teachings, the Torah is simply irrelevant IN APPLICATION to the core of Christian faith. It can be imported in faith and applied to your life (which you have done) but take it apart and the message of the gospel still stands. Unless you are saying that I, who do not follow the Torah AT ALL, am not a believer to begin with, I am not sure what the fuss is about?


If you are not Christan then what faith are you?

Is that even suppose to make sense, or in some strange way you just said, I am not a believer?

[neo-x]

neo-x wrote:
Love is what Christ showed us, what more do you want?


You say love but you have no working definition of love outside of Torah... Therefore you will have to provide your own definition of love outside of the book... Your own god, your own mystical church...

Sorry, you are simply mistaken. There is no love outside of Torah? wow! great choice of words. If I follow what Christ said, I do not need any other definition at all.

[Gman]

neo-x wrote:
Love is what Christ showed us, what more do you want?


You say love but you have no working definition of love outside of Torah... Therefore you will have to provide your own definition of love outside of the book... Your own god, your own mystical church...

Sorry, you are simply mistaken. There is no love outside of Torah? wow! great choice of words. If I follow what Christ said, I do not need any other definition at all.

That's good for you then.... Whatever it is you do... Good luck.

[neo-x]

hat's good for you then.... Whatever it is you do... Good luck.

Don't say it when you don't mean it, its rude.

[Sam1995]

hat's good for you then.... Whatever it is you do... Good luck.

Don't say it when you don't mean it, its rude.

Neo, you're proclaiming here to be a Christian, you're obliged to follow this little bit of the NT too...

[Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. - 2 Timothy 2:23 NIV]

SB

[neo-x]

Neo, you're proclaiming here to be a Christian, you're obliged to follow this little bit of the NT too...

May be, but I am not sure if by this we should allow all sorts of theological blunders there could be.

[Sam1995]

Neo, you're proclaiming here to be a Christian, you're obliged to follow this little bit of the NT too...

May be, but I am not sure if by this we should allow all sorts of theological blunders there could be.

I'm not criticizing your argument, just your last couple of responses, when a debate becomes an argument, then you stop.

SB

[neo-x]

i dont think i get you, which part of my response, u found offensive, silly or personal?

[Sam1995]

For example, you're engaged in a pointless argument with me right now, lol.
Your last few responses weren't very "useful" in terms of the discussion going on in this thread, I thought.
Also just wanted to wind you up a bit

SB

[KBCid]

KBCid wrote:To be Jewish is to strive to be like God.

To "strive" to be like God is the antithesis of why Christ came.

Really Rick? how do you derive that? Look at the scriptures. We were made in the image of God for a reason. He is our father, whom are we supposed to be like?;

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

1Pe 2:21-22 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Lev 19:2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.

Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

2Th 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly

Joh 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
Joh 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
Joh 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

------------

John 10:34-36 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? [Psalms 82:1-7] If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?"

There are ample biblical passages to support the belief that men can become "gods" by overcoming the world through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.[Bible 6] There are also several biblical passages which state that men may become heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ and will inherit all things just as Christ inherits all things.[Bible 7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinization_(Christian)

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To be like God or Christ is to reflect their same manners in all things. Not with an intent to displace God as satan would intend but rather to be truly a 'son of God'. We were made in his image. Adam and Eve both existed in the image of God until they erred and that error continued until Christ came to show us how to properly reflect the Father through the Son in ourselves. It is clearly and plainly written that Christ was our example. the question to you is an example of what?

Christ was our example of how a son is to be like his father;

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Christ was the proper son of God by reflecting his father in all that he did. He was the most proper reflection of holiness which God is and the proper reflection of love which God is.

My hero is God and his Christ and I seek to be like them in every important aspect that they consider holy and proper. I may yet be a sinner who has not attained to the holiness of my Father in heaven but I have faith that he will help me to become as he wishes me to be and attain the image that I was created to be by studying his word and the words of his only begotten Son in the hopes that one day I will become a joint heir with the Son just as it is written;

Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
Gal 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

So again if we don't act like God who should we act like?

[RickD]

KBCid wrote:To be Jewish is to strive to be like God.


RickD wrote:
To "strive" to be like God is the antithesis of why Christ came.

KBCid wrote:
Really Rick? how do you derive that? Look at the scriptures. We were made in the image of God for a reason. He is our father, whom are we supposed to be like?;

Yes KBC, really. The disagreement I have is with the word "strive".

strive  
/strīv/
Verb
Make great efforts to achieve or obtain something.

Make great efforts to achieve or obtain something.
As believers, we don't make great efforts to become like God. Nor do we make great efforts to achieve something in that regard. All the effort is in what Christ did. Not in our own efforts. The indwelling Holy Spirit of God in a believer sanctifies the believer, and He conforms the believer to the image of Christ. Our striving is useless in this process.

[KBCid]

Being Jewish is a manner of existing. Jews were to be one nation... under God... with liberty and justice for all. To be properly Jewish they were supposed to reflect God in all things. Being Jewish or spiritual israel is to live according to what we were created for... to be the image of God in the spirit.
The words brought to us by the Jews through the power of God were not their own personal words. The words originated from God himself to define how humans should exist under his guidance. You were jewish if you believed and followed his word. Spiritual israel will also exist under Gods government according to his word. Gods word to us is that we are to be holy just as he is... To be Jewish is to strive to be like God.

Be careful, brother. You cannot become a Jew, unless you convert to Judaism. The church is not the new Israel, that is replacement theology, which is heretical. There is a distinction between Jew and Gentile, and it has nothing to do with believing, following G-d's Word, or striving to be like G-d. It's about what kind of blood you were born with. You're confusing being spiritual with being Jewish, the two are not synonymous.

How many bodies of Christ are there?

Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Define where the Jew ends and the gentile begins. Christ preached the same message to both Jew and gentile. He sought to bring all together into the same body with the same rules and government. If I being a believing gentile do not become a brother to the believing Jew then what am I?

Here is Gods position on being Jewish;

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Note this reference in acts;

Act 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the CONVERSION of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

What were the gentiles converted to?

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

What you may be failing to realise here is where Jews came from. Read this scripture and see the truth;

Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Jews are in fact gentiles... that is where their bloodline originated. The first gentile Abram became Jewish after he showed faith in God. He was not a jew before that time. The difference between a Jew and a gentile is what exactly?

Gen 11:31 And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Gen 15:7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

This is the Covenant that formed the first Jew from a gentile. To accept God as the only God and walk before him perfect with a circumcised heart.
The 'token' or outward sign of this covenant as defined by God was;
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

So ultimately a Jew is not a Jew because he is circumcised on the outside but rather as it was written;

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Any gentile who fulfills the intent of the covenant that God desires will engage in a covenant just as Abram the gentile did and we will be given a new name just as Abram got and became Abraham;

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

[Gman]

KBCid has his thinking cap on....

[KBCid]

KBCid wrote:To be Jewish is to strive to be like God.


RickD wrote:
To "strive" to be like God is the antithesis of why Christ came.

KBCid wrote:
Really Rick? how do you derive that? Look at the scriptures. We were made in the image of God for a reason. He is our father, whom are we supposed to be like?;

Yes KBC, really. The disagreement I have is with the word "strive".

strive  
/strīv/
Verb
Make great efforts to achieve or obtain something.

Make great efforts to achieve or obtain something.
As believers, we don't make great efforts to become like God. Nor do we make great efforts to achieve something in that regard. All the effort is in what Christ did. Not in our own efforts. The indwelling Holy Spirit of God in a believer sanctifies the believer, and He conforms the believer to the image of Christ. Our striving is useless in this process.

Your reply is in direct opposition to scripture. I intentionally used the same wording as the author of corinthians did;

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that 'STRIVETH' for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

I strive for an incoruptible crown and we are directed / commanded to be perfect... by Christ himself;

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Futher Christ himself tells us how to do this;

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Mat 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
Mat 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Mat 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
Mat 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

You can assert that we shouldn't strive to be holy but that is quite clearly not the message / commandment from our example Christ.

[KBCid]

KBCid has his thinking cap on....

G, do you get the same feeling when you read my posts as I do when I read yours?
I can't explain how I know what to write but I am driven at times to write things as they come to mind and every time I read your posts it feels like De ja vu for the thoughts that run through my own mind. I came on the board to test these thoughts and see if they are valid but, I am experiencing things that go beyond what I intended. So I just thought I would ask and see if this is simply in my own mind or whether you were experiencing the same thing from your side.
I am nothing more than any other decrpit sinner out there but, I do like to explore those things that are different than the norm for me and its no big deal if you don't have the same experience. Its just an oddity for me that I feel a need to touch on.