Evidence for God from Science

Sorry for the late response!

Mallz: I think that is way too of a presumptuous statement to make. Go to the Middle East where sharia law is the law of governance, go to Africa where you find the same or a jumbled mess, etc. to more countries.
Kenny: Most don't agree with Sharia law, or the messed up situations in much of Africa. Mostly those in power who benefit from that mess agree with it.

I was pointing out you were making a relative claim, which I would argue 'most the world' would disagree with. Because 'most the world' does not agree with you if you look at what the majority of populations believe.
And all Muslims agree with sharia law, which would be about 1.57 billion people.

Kenny: If we assume an objective measure of good and evil, whose measure do we go by? Your God's? Someone else's God's? Sharia law? And who is going to enforce this measure?

Go by reality to start. Which is why natural theology is a great starting point. Natural philosophy is the precursor to natural science. My biggest questions is why did materialism follow in empirical sciences wake when the obvious theology to science would be the natural one..
This is why people need to study philosophy and metaphysics. Those are why questions Kenny. And it can only be answered in those fields. Studying those fields is a major part that brought me to the Christian God. He is the only one that our reality points to, that fits in Him.

Kenny: Trusting and believing has little to do with behavior. I can believe it is wrong to steal, yet steal when nobody is looking. Yes that makes me a hypocrite, but if trusting and believing is all it takes to get in, then the hypocrite will get in.

Trusting and believing do have to do with behavior. If you stole when no one is looking, then you don't believe it is wrong. You just believe everyone else says it's wrong and need to make sure they don't find out about it. Same with the self proclaimed Christian. And you can't equate stealing with no regard, with those that

continue to beat their wives, abuse their children, and unapologetic

about it. Show me someone who beats their wives or abuses their children and I'll show you someone who isn't a Christian.

Not sure how you define “saved”, but if believing and trusting is all it takes, then their actions has nothing to do with it right?

If someone believed the Earth was going to be hit by a comet and destroy half the world this year, they would prepare for it by stocking up on food, getting an underground shelter that can self-sustain families, and who else knows what.
If someone believed they were going to die if they drove to town a certain night, they wouldn't drive that night.
If someone believed Jesus Christ is our God King and is coming again and could at any second, they would behave accordingly to their belief.
Again, just because someone says they believe, doesn't mean they do.
You know what the really sad thing is? Most people reject a false Christ. I have the hardest time talking to smart and educated people who have had a false christ and false gospel pushed on them growing up because most the time I'm breaking down walls put up from falsehood by evil PEOPLE (not and evil God). Most the time I'm introducing YHWH so people can know who He actually is. Most people in this world know about Jesus, but many don't actually know Him. That's what He wants. To be known by His creations.

So there is a hierarchy in Heaven?

Yes

*edit for missing words

M, what do you mean by "known by His creations?"

Mallz
I was pointing out you were making a relative claim, which I would argue 'most the world' would disagree with. Because 'most the world' does not agree with you if you look at what the majority of populations believe.
Ken
So which of my moral beliefs do the majority of the worlds population disagree with?


Mallz
And all Muslims agree with sharia law, which would be about 1.57 billion people.

Ken
There are many moderate muslims that disagree with many of the various versions of Sharia law. Just as there are many christians who disagree on interpretations of the Bible, Muslims disagree as well.

Mallz
Go by reality to start. Which is why natural theology is a great starting point.
Ken
Which natural theology?

Mallz
Trusting and believing do have to do with behavior. If you stole when no one is looking, then you don't believe it is wrong. You just believe everyone else says it's wrong and need to make sure they don't find out about it.
Ken
The same people who have at some point lied, stolen, or cheated will teach their children not to steal, lie or cheat. Now why do you suppose that is? (hint) because they know even though they’ve done it, it is wrong.

Mallz
If someone believed the Earth was going to be hit by a comet and destroy half the world this year, they would prepare for it by stocking up on food, getting an underground shelter that can self-sustain families, and who else knows what.
If someone believed they were going to die if they drove to town a certain night, they wouldn't drive that night.
If someone believed Jesus Christ is our God King and is coming again and could at any second, they would behave accordingly to their belief.
Ken
Not sure what you mean by” behave according to belief” but if it means to quit sinning, then according to your logic nobody believes Jesus Christ is their God king; christians included because they still sin and make mistakes.

Ken

M, what do you mean by "known by His creations?"

YHWH wants to be intimately known by us humans as He intimately knows us. He wants a relationship with us. He wants us to act like He is everything to us as He is. He wants us to explore Him, get to know Him, understand Him and love Him.
There's a lot more that could be said but that's the jist of it.

So which of my moral beliefs do the majority of the worlds population disagree with?

We'd have to explore that to figure it out, along with the worlds demographics. I wasn't trying to call you out or anything, sorry if I came off that way. Just that the world is to morally subjective to make broad brush statements, ya know?

There are many moderate muslims that disagree with many of the various versions of Sharia law. Just as there are many christians who disagree on interpretations of the Bible, Muslims disagree as well.

There's no such thing as a moderate muslim, that's a western media concoction. There are those that believe in the Hadith and Quran, who are muslims. And those who don't but fill pews and are not.

Which natural theology?

The one Jac knows so much about
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_theology

Not sure what you mean by” behave according to belief” but if it means to quit sinning, then according to your logic nobody believes Jesus Christ is their God king; christians included because they still sin and make mistakes.

No it doesn't mean quit sinning. We are incapable of perfection as mortals.
Question: If you believed in Jesus Christ, Who and What He Is, and know He is coming soon and could today, how would that effect you?

Mallz
We'd have to explore that to figure it out, along with the worlds demographics. I wasn't trying to call you out or anything, sorry if I came off that way. Just that the world is to morally subjective to make broad brush statements, ya know?
Ken
Most people agree on the simple things concerning morality; don’t cheat, don’t steal, Golden Rule, etc. I agree on these things as does most people. That’s the point I was making

Mallz
There's no such thing as a moderate muslim, that's a western media concoction.
Ken
Did you interview all 1.37 billion Muslims? Didn’t you just bark at me about broad brush statements last reply? Look! I know some people who are Muslims. They all are not like the ones you see on Fox News okay?

Mallz
The one Jac knows so much about
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_theology
Ken
I’m not talking to jac, I’m talking to you. My point is, in order for good and evil to be objective, the standard used must be agreed upon by all and/or enforced/imposed upon all. Now obviously everybody doesn’t agree with your natural theology, so who is going to enforce it?

Ken

I disagree that most people agree on things concerning morality. I think people tend to interpret morality based on themselves. Everyone agrees stealing is wrong? Why is piracy so rampant as an example?
Ask your Muslim friends when their Mahdi comes if you refuse to convert to Islam, would they kill you?
No barking, there's rarely any emotion in my posts. And the 1.37 billion Muslims is a demographic pool of people who do have different moral principles that would disagree with you.

in order for good and evil to be objective, the standard used must be agreed upon by all and/or enforced/imposed upon all. Now obviously everybody doesn’t agree with your natural theology, so who is going to enforce it?

Everybody doesn't agree on anything which is why destruction and death has reigned throughout human history. Man fails man. Natural theology is discerning the whys of the world through logical objective experiencing means. The one who Is will enforce dignity to every essence when He comes to rule and not allow anyone, including themselves, to denature anything anymore. Everything will exist how it is supposed to exist true to itself. Those who for various reasons will not uphold the dignity of existence in its expressions will not be allowed to be a part of existence. There's no enforcing, everyone has a choice.

Mallz wrote:I disagree that most people agree on things concerning morality. I think people tend to interpret morality based on themselves. Everyone agrees stealing is wrong? Why is piracy so rampant as an example?
Ask your Muslim friends when their Mahdi comes if you refuse to convert to Islam, would they kill you?
No barking, there's rarely any emotion in my posts. And the 1.37 billion Muslims is a demographic pool of people who do have different moral principles that would disagree with you.

in order for good and evil to be objective, the standard used must be agreed upon by all and/or enforced/imposed upon all. Now obviously everybody doesn’t agree with your natural theology, so who is going to enforce it?

Everybody doesn't agree on anything which is why destruction and death has reigned throughout human history. Man fails man. Natural theology is discerning the whys of the world through logical objective experiencing means. The one who Is will enforce dignity to every essence when He comes to rule and not allow anyone, including themselves, to denature anything anymore. Everything will exist how it is supposed to exist true to itself. Those who for various reasons will not uphold the dignity of existence in its expressions will not be allowed to be a part of existence. There's no enforcing, everyone has a choice.

People may not agree on WHAT is goor and evil or right and wrong BUT every culture since the dawn of time agrees that there IS a right and wrong, a good and bad.

Im not sure what goor is but I think I got some on my shoe one time.

Mallz wrote:I disagree that most people agree on things concerning morality. I think people tend to interpret morality based on themselves. Everyone agrees stealing is wrong? Why is piracy so rampant as an example?

Most people don’t do wrong out of ignorance; they do wrong due to character flaws and moral weaknesses. What about you? Have you ever done wrong? Or are you perfect.

Mallz wrote:Ask your Muslim friends when their Mahdi comes if you refuse to convert to Islam, would they kill you?
No barking, there's rarely any emotion in my posts. And the 1.37 billion Muslims is a demographic pool of people who do have different moral principles that would disagree with you.

Did you know there are people who never go to church, never read their bibles, never pray, and if you mentioned Yahweh they would look at you clueless of what you are talking about; yet they identify as christian! When they say there are 2.1 billion Christians worldwide, these people are counted among the 2.1 billion.
Well believe it or not, many who identify as Muslim who are the same way. They don’t pray towards Mecca 5 times per day, they don’t study the Hadith or the Quran, and if you talked about killing those who don’t convert, they would be offended. Now if you are going to claim there are 1.37 billion Muslims worldwide, you need to include these people in that number as well; not just the ones you learn about from watching fox news.

Mallz wrote:Everybody doesn't agree on anything which is why destruction and death has reigned throughout human history.

I disagree! Everyone agrees on math, temperature, numbers, volume, distance, and everything else that can be demonstrated. These things are objective. Your “natural theology” is what people disagree on; that's because it is subjective.

Ken

Math is objective? Hmm.

Kenny: Most people don’t do wrong out of ignorance; they do wrong due to character flaws and moral weaknesses. What about you? Have you ever done wrong? Or are you perfect.

Mallz: We are incapable of perfection as mortals.

Most people do wrong because it's what they want to do. What's your point?

Did you know there are people who never go to church, never read their bibles, never pray, and if you mentioned Yahweh they would look at you clueless of what you are talking about; yet they identify as christian! When they say there are 2.1 billion Christians worldwide, these people are counted among the 2.1 billion.
Well believe it or not, many who identify as Muslim who are the same way. They don’t pray towards Mecca 5 times per day, they don’t study the Hadith or the Quran, and if you talked about killing those who don’t convert, they would be offended. Now if you are going to claim there are 1.37 billion Muslims worldwide, you need to include these people in that number as well; not just the ones you learn about from watching fox news.

I don't watch fox news. I watch the news coming from countries where the majority of Muslims live: in the Middle East and southeast Asia.
Just because someone identifies as something, doesn't mean they are that thing. You mention people who don't read their bibles, pray, go to church, or know the God who they say they worship. Does that sound like a Christian to you? Same goes for the Muslims. Or anyone who identifies to a belief system. You don't get to say I believe this and not that. It's all or nothing. You either do or you don't. Most people don't, they pick and choose to create something else which is why there's so much variety in belief systems. Do you know Islam Eschatology? If you did you would know any Quran and Hadith believing Muslim would answer yes. Why do you think there is so much turmoil across the Middle East? Their political and religious systems are one. And their inner disagreements lead them to butcher each other.
Anyways, not sure what your point was in the reply regarding you can't get everyone to agree on morality; the point of me using the 1.37 billion Muslim example in the first place.

Your “natural theology” is what people disagree on; that's because it is subjective.

No it's not. If you would actually study it you would see. It objectively shows what something is; shows why it is disharmonious and destructive for that thing to be anything else. Which is why it finds morality in nature. Sin=denaturing something. Good=honoring what something is to its nature.

Can I jump in for one second?

"There`s no such thing as a moderate Muslim"

I have talked, at length, with a Muslim. He is not an extremist, he is a kind, gentle, compassionate soul who just happens to have a different take on God to me. I totally disagree with the statement that there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim, that suggests that they are all extremists! There are many Muslims that are as appalled as we are at what is being done in the name of their religion and I don`t think it`s fair to tar them all with the same brush.

Storyteller wrote:Can I jump in for one second?

"There`s no such thing as a moderate Muslim"

I have talked, at length, with a Muslim. He is not an extremist, he is a kind, gentle, compassionate soul who just happens to have a different take on God to me. I totally disagree with the statement that there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim, that suggests that they are all extremists! There are many Muslims that are as appalled as we are at what is being done in the name of their religion and I don`t think it`s fair to tar them all with the same brush.

I had a doctor for a time, who is Muslim. She is a wonderful woman.

I used to loathe Japanese, till I got to know one.

I think someone's book says "blessed are the peacemakers".

It doesnt mean the "tar with one brushers"

And let those who are without sin cast the first stone.


It annoys me when people stereotype people. Sure, there are extremists that do a lot of harm to the Muslim faith but the same can be argued for any collection of people. (Btw, this isn`t an attack against Mallz) It doesn`t mean we should assume all Muslims are extremists.
I just think it`s unfair to pigeon hole people.

It`s like saying all Catholic priests are peadophiles just because there have been instances of it. Blame the individuals not the faith.

There are many moderate Muslims, one can argue that the majority are moderates.
It makes the current state of Islam worse because of that, not better and the reason I say that is because it falls on the moderates to "keep" the extremists in line.
Every time a extremist Christian does something stupid like bomb an abortion clinic or come out and say that God hates homosexuals, it falls on us moderates to counter that hate with the true message of Christianity, and that is salvation through Christ and His commandment to love each other as He loved us.
And that is what we do.
When was the last time you hear or saw a moderate Muslim denounce radical and extremist Islam?