Evidence for God from Science

DBowling wrote:

SoCalExile wrote:
The entire premise of LS contradicts scripture.

...yet another inaccurate assertion about LS...

Let me point out two of the basic premises of LS that are not only Scriptural, but are lacking in many of the evangelical presentations of the Gospel that I've seen.

1. LS identifies the correct object of genuine faith.
According to Scripture the object of genuine faith is the person of Jesus Christ.

Many presentations of the Gospel identify the object of faith as intellectual knowledge about a set of theological truths.

Genuine faith places its trust in the person of Jesus Christ...
not my personal knowledge of key theological truths.

That is the difference between the dead faith of the demons and a living faith that works in James 2.

2. LS correctly identifies what trusting in Jesus saves us from.

When we trust in Jesus we are trusting in him to save us from our sin.

Many presentations of the Gospel focus only on saving us from the consequences of sin.

Scripture tells us that we are trusting in Jesus to save us from all aspects of sin, including our bondage to sin, and death.
If a person is only trusting Jesus to save them from Hell, then they are totally missing what Jesus died on the cross to save them from.

In Christ

Philip wrote:I would say that, pressed to greater clarity, I pretty much agree with how DBowling states his take on this. But the way he has clarified is not how I hear LS adherents assert things, which are often well laden with fear-mongering DOisms asserted needed for proof - proof that can never be enough or validated (by man). But, especially with a guy like Paul Washer, who marries his Reformed beliefs to such teaching - well, it can cause a lot of damage and fear. I would agree that no true believer with the Holy Spirit is without ANY works - it's just that WE might not be able to discern them - OR we might think we see confirmations of "works" that are, in fact, misleading, as that God would see them as "unrighteous" ones.

One must admit that the Matthew 7:21-23 passage is very troubling:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

How incredible that one could APPEAR so committed to doing "MANY" works in Jesus name and yet not be saved. And, the indication is that this isn't the rare false Christian/unbeliever doing these things, but that "many" will demonstrate these unworthy works, and yet will nonetheless end up in Hell. Wow! And especially scary, these people are self-deluded into believing they are saved, but are not.

Philip wrote:I would say that, pressed to greater clarity, I pretty much agree with how DBowling states his take on this. But the way he has clarified is not how I hear LS adherents assert things, which are often well laden with fear-mongering DOisms asserted needed for proof - proof that can never be enough or validated (by man). But, especially with a guy like Paul Washer, who marries his Reformed beliefs to such teaching - well, it can cause a lot of damage and fear. I would agree that no true believer with the Holy Spirit is without ANY works - it's just that WE might not be able to discern them - OR we might think we see confirmations of "works" that are, in fact, misleading, as that God would see them as "unrighteous" ones.

One must admit that the Matthew 7:21-23 passage is very troubling:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

How incredible that one could APPEAR so committed to doing "MANY" works in Jesus name and yet not be saved. And, the indication is that this isn't the rare false Christian/unbeliever doing these things, but that "many" will demonstrate these unworthy works, and yet will nonetheless end up in Hell. Wow! And especially scary, these people are self-deluded into believing they are saved, but are not.

RickD wrote:Let's clear this "genuine faith" thing up. There's no such thing as genuine faith. There's just "faith".

We all agree that faith in this context, is a saving faith in the person of Jesus Christ. It's been said that "not genuine" faith, is the faith that demons have. But that's not really faith at all. Faith in Christ, is a trust in him. Demons don't trust in Christ, so that means they don't have faith.

Faith is faith. Saving faith puts its trust in Christ.

PaulSacramento wrote:By the way, this part:
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Is crucial and I have often been asked, "well what will is that?"

I answer here:

Luke 9:35
1John 3:23
John 6:29

SoCalExile wrote:

RickD wrote:Let's clear this "genuine faith" thing up. There's no such thing as genuine faith. There's just "faith".

We all agree that faith in this context, is a saving faith in the person of Jesus Christ. It's been said that "not genuine" faith, is the faith that demons have. But that's not really faith at all. Faith in Christ, is a trust in him. Demons don't trust in Christ, so that means they don't have faith.

Faith is faith. Saving faith puts its trust in Christ.

James 2:19 is not referring to salvation at all. It's talking about a profession of faith being empty to a non-believer if it's not backed up by action.

RickD wrote: I was just referring to the LS belief about "genuine faith", and some other supposed kind of faith that demons have. DBowling mentioned that they were two different kinds of faith. I just wanted to point out that there's just faith.

1. LS identifies the correct object of genuine faith.
According to Scripture the object of genuine faith is the person of Jesus Christ.

Many presentations of the Gospel identify the object of faith as intellectual knowledge about a set of theological truths.

Genuine faith places its trust in the person of Jesus Christ...
not my personal knowledge of key theological truths.

That is the difference between the dead faith of the demons and a living faith that works in James 2.

RickD wrote:

DBowling wrote:
I'm not sure that everyone here does agree with that...
There are a number of posts in this thread where the post-salvation results of sanctification have been equated with works-salvation and Pharisaic legalism

That's because LS doesn't teach "post salvation". They teach that sanctification and salvation are one. Which means that the works performed during sanctification, are works that have to be performed during salvation, according to LS. Which again, if they're necessary for salvation, then it's a works based salvation.

There are many articles of faith that are fundamental to all evangelical teaching. For example, there is agreement among all believers on the following truths: (1) Christ's death purchased eternal salvation; (2) the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone; (3) sinners cannot earn divine favor; (4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation; (5) eternal life is a gift of God; (6) believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works; and (7) Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly.

RickD wrote:
But what you're missing, is that in order for a believer to grow in Christ, in this life, he must cooperate with the Holy Spirit. In order to be a disciple, one must choose to live by the spirit, and not live by the flesh.

DBowling wrote:
In the second sentence I would phrase it as "grow as a disciple" (as opposed to becoming a disciple), because I believe a person becomes a disciple of Jesus when they put their trust in Jesus. During the process of sanctification a disciple draws closer to and becomes more like his master.

Fwiw, I said "In order to BE a disciple", not BECOME a disciple.
And I agree that anyone who is a disciple, begins his discipleship at the time of trusting Christ.

We seem to agree on what it takes to be a disciple. Commitment, drawing closer to God, living by the spirit, etc. But I'm not sure if you agree with LS, that all who trust Christ, automatically and necessarily become disciples. Or if you agree with what I'm saying, that in order to be a disciple, or follow Christ, there has to be a cooperation on the believer's part. It's not just an automatic thing where the Holy Spirit "possesses" a believer, and completely takes over.

SoCalExile wrote:DB, you quote one part of MacArthur's site that supports your claim that he doesn't teach salvation by works, then you ignore the parts that teach salvation by works. It comes down to DOING things to have "saving faith" or "genuine faith":

-Turn from sin.

-Persevere in the faith
-Live a changed life
-Stop a pattern of sin
-Obey God's commandments
-Love your brothers
-Abide in God's Word
-Keep God's Word
-Do good works
-Continue in the faith
-Include "all that pertains to life and godliness"
-Unconditional surrender
-Long to obey Him
-Evidence true faith
-Persevere in the faith

DBowling wrote:

SoCalExile wrote:DB, you quote one part of MacArthur's site that supports your claim that he doesn't teach salvation by works, then you ignore the parts that teach salvation by works. It comes down to DOING things to have "saving faith" or "genuine faith":

-Turn from sin.

Repentance is not works...

-Persevere in the faith
-Live a changed life
-Stop a pattern of sin
-Obey God's commandments
-Love your brothers
-Abide in God's Word
-Keep God's Word
-Do good works
-Continue in the faith
-Include "all that pertains to life and godliness"
-Unconditional surrender
-Long to obey Him
-Evidence true faith
-Persevere in the faith

All part of post salvation sanctification

In Christ