Evidence for God from Science

Kurieuo wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:We know where each other stands Kenny, I'm not trying to convince you. We can respectfully disagree with each other.

However, it is my belief that you are anti-God. Anyone who does not see God, their hearts are darkened and they're running away from and trying to bury a knowledge of God which is born witness to deep within our very being. So anyone who doesn't believe in God, that God exists, such I see as anti-God. Their turning away from God leads to them not seeing God who is in fact evident, and their failure to acknowledge God leads the hearts of such a person being darkened further to such knowledge. It's like a downward spiral.

I know you'll disagree and expect you to, nonetheless such is my position and furthermore Scripture explains it this way as you can see in the words of Paul in Romans 1:20-21.

Like you said, that's your opinion, and you're entitled to your subjective opinion.

As you are yours, but I don't consider your anti-Godism means you're an enemy. "Anti-" sounds harsh, but I don't think you'd be unfriendly to me in anyway, and you don't seem unfriendly on this board to people. Likewise I'd treat you as a friend if we ever met and happily share drinks with you. I'm sure we'd have much more interesting discussions than most other people, although we'd evidently disagree on much.

Agreed

K

Kenny chooses the default position knowing there is no evidence to know the default position is correct or not and excludes himself even from needing to have any evidence yet is somehow the ultimate judge of our evidence Christianity is true.Then when given solid evidence Christianity is true rejects it while never knowing he is right until he dies.

kenny wrote:
I don't choose atheism, Atheism is the default position for me.

Kenny,

Can you prove that assertion, that atheism is the default position?

RickD wrote:

kenny wrote:
I don't choose atheism, Atheism is the default position for me.

Kenny,

Can you prove that assertion, that atheism is the default position?

When I said “for me atheism is the default position” that means for me, Atheism doesn’t make any type of claim; it is simply skeptical of specific claims. As I said before, when considering what people believe as God, I acknowledge what many may call God may exist, but because I don’t call it God, (I may call him another person, Sun, Nature, alien invaders, etc) I am atheist. Hope that answers your question.

Ken

Kenny wrote:

RickD wrote:

kenny wrote:
I don't choose atheism, Atheism is the default position for me.

Kenny,

Can you prove that assertion, that atheism is the default position?

When I said “for me atheism is the default position” that means for me, Atheism doesn’t make any type of claim; it is simply skeptical of specific claims. As I said before, when considering what people believe as God, I acknowledge what many may call God may exist, but because I don’t call it God, (I may call him another person, Sun, Nature, alien invaders, etc) I am atheist. Hope that answers your question.

Ken

No, it doesn't answer my question. You asserted that atheism is your default position. You stated that as a fact, correct? In other words, you said, "It's a fact, that atheism is the default position for me."

When you make a factual claim, you need to back it up with evidence, or its just an unsubstantiated opinion. And that means you need to stop giving us unsubstantiated opinions, as facts.

See what I'm saying?

Kenny wrote:

RickD wrote:

kenny wrote:
I don't choose atheism, Atheism is the default position for me.

Kenny,

Can you prove that assertion, that atheism is the default position?

When I said “for me atheism is the default position” that means for me, Atheism doesn’t make any type of claim; it is simply skeptical of specific claims. As I said before, when considering what people believe as God, I acknowledge what many may call God may exist, but because I don’t call it God, (I may call him another person, Sun, Nature, alien invaders, etc) I am atheist. Hope that answers your question.

Ken

Just so you know the moment you bring up other God's,another person,sun,nature,alien invaders,etc. You must then give evidence for each one you bring up and convince us that we should believe in it/them instead of our God.This is why when atheists try to compare some other god to Jesus,or Imply that Christians borrowed ideas about other god's,etc they then must convince us by evidence why we should believe in it over Jesus,but they think they are excluded and don't have to have any evidence and so they make it apply to other things also. People like this can never know the truth from a lie because they are not evidence based people and instead only have opinions to offer.

RickD wrote:

Kenny wrote:

RickD wrote:

kenny wrote:
I don't choose atheism, Atheism is the default position for me.

Kenny,

Can you prove that assertion, that atheism is the default position?

When I said “for me atheism is the default position” that means for me, Atheism doesn’t make any type of claim; it is simply skeptical of specific claims. As I said before, when considering what people believe as God, I acknowledge what many may call God may exist, but because I don’t call it God, (I may call him another person, Sun, Nature, alien invaders, etc) I am atheist. Hope that answers your question.

Ken

No, it doesn't answer my question. You asserted that atheism is your default position. You stated that as a fact, correct? In other words, you said, "It's a fact, that atheism is the default position for me."

When you make a factual claim, you need to back it up with evidence, or its just an unsubstantiated opinion. And that means you need to stop giving us unsubstantiated opinions, as facts.

See what I'm saying?

Let me try explaining it this way. When I say default position, I mean atheism doesn’t asset a position, God isn’t even in the picture. When someone introduces God into the picture and describes/explains God to me, I reject what they say. Does this make sense to you? If not, perhaps you can give an example of the type of evidence you are looking for that convince you that for me Atheism is a default position.

Ken

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Kenny wrote:

RickD wrote:

kenny wrote:
I don't choose atheism, Atheism is the default position for me.

Kenny,

Can you prove that assertion, that atheism is the default position?

When I said “for me atheism is the default position” that means for me, Atheism doesn’t make any type of claim; it is simply skeptical of specific claims. As I said before, when considering what people believe as God, I acknowledge what many may call God may exist, but because I don’t call it God, (I may call him another person, Sun, Nature, alien invaders, etc) I am atheist. Hope that answers your question.

Ken

Just so you know the moment you bring up other God's,another person,sun,nature,alien invaders,etc. You must then give evidence for each one you bring up and convince us that we should believe in it/them instead of our God.

No I don’t, all it means is I recognize there are other Deities people make claims about that I am skeptical about as well.

Ken

Kenny wrote:

RickD wrote:

Kenny wrote:

RickD wrote:

kenny wrote:
I don't choose atheism, Atheism is the default position for me.

Kenny,

Can you prove that assertion, that atheism is the default position?

When I said “for me atheism is the default position” that means for me, Atheism doesn’t make any type of claim; it is simply skeptical of specific claims. As I said before, when considering what people believe as God, I acknowledge what many may call God may exist, but because I don’t call it God, (I may call him another person, Sun, Nature, alien invaders, etc) I am atheist. Hope that answers your question.

Ken

No, it doesn't answer my question. You asserted that atheism is your default position. You stated that as a fact, correct? In other words, you said, "It's a fact, that atheism is the default position for me."

When you make a factual claim, you need to back it up with evidence, or its just an unsubstantiated opinion. And that means you need to stop giving us unsubstantiated opinions, as facts.

See what I'm saying?

Let me try explaining it this way. When I say default position, I mean atheism doesn’t asset a position, God isn’t even in the picture. When someone introduces God into the picture and describes/explains God to me, I reject what they say. Does this make sense to you? If not, perhaps you can give an example of the type of evidence you are looking for that convince you that for me Atheism is a default position.

Ken

Kenny,

I'm just not buying your assertion that atheism is your default position. Here's why...

You said you used to be a Christian. So, however you defined "Christian", it means you thought about the existence of God, right? So then, you went from a position of Christian(as you define it), and ended up in a position of atheism(as you define it). Which means, you had to think about God, and if He exists. And if you thought about God, and concluded that He doesn't exist, then you chose atheism as your position. It's not a default position.

Get it?

RickD wrote:Paul,

I believe this is the post Kenny was referring to. I found it on page 7. 9/16/16 7:21pm on my time:

Below is some of the evidence I see that tells me Christianity isn’t what you believe it is.
Some of the stories in the Bible like Jonah and the Whale, or Noah’s Ark, or Joshua causing the Sun to sit still during war? Those stories don’t sound realistic to me. And before you go saying all those stories are allegory or just stories designed to make a point; remember Jesus compared his death to Jonah in the Whale (Matthew 12:40) and he also compared his return to Noah’s Ark (Matthew 24:37-39). So if Jesus believed it, so should all Christians.

God is said to be Omniscient, (all knowing) Yet he is known to have exhibited surprise, jealousy, even choosing to change his mind; something flawed humans do because we are NOT omniscient, we continue to learn.
God is said to be Omnipresent, (present everywhere) yet he was able to pass by Moses allowing him only to see his backside; suggesting he was able to go to a place where he was not.
God is said to be Omnibenovelent, (all good) But when I read about the mistreatment of Job, Adam and Eve, the treatment of the people of Egypt and countless others; that doesn’t sound realistic either.
He is also said to be omnipotent (unlimited power) Yet he allows his enemy (Devil) to have more influence over his children than he does.

It doesn’t make sense to me that he is any of those things because if he were, I believe he would have done things differently. IOW when I read what the Bible says about God, the best of my understanding tells me the Bible is not true, and if the Bible is not true, why would I believe what the Bible describes as God IS God?

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 39#p208739

If that is the case then NO, Ken doesn't know the bible.

Everything we believe in involves a CHOICE to believe in it.
Atheism is a choice.
It is a choice to NOT believe the evidence for God and TO BELIEVE the evidence that no god exists.

PaulSacramento wrote:Everything we believe in involves a CHOICE to believe in it.
Atheism is a choice.
It is a choice to NOT believe the evidence for God and TO BELIEVE the evidence that no god exists.

That may be the bright line that distinguishes "believers' from other people.

"Choosing" to believe. Deciding what to believe.

I dont doubt that some-the believers- can just decide to believe something, and then believe it.

Doesn't work that way for me. No more than I can do the White Queen thing and believe 6 impossible things before breakfast.

Audie wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Everything we believe in involves a CHOICE to believe in it.
Atheism is a choice.
It is a choice to NOT believe the evidence for God and TO BELIEVE the evidence that no god exists.

That may be the bright line that distinguishes "believers' from other people.

"Choosing" to believe. Deciding what to believe.

I dont doubt that some-the believers- can just decide to believe something, and then believe it.

Doesn't work that way for me. No more than I can do the White Queen thing and believe 6 impossible things before breakfast.

You are right that things are more complex. Belief runs not simply from our heads, but starts much deeper within our hearts as I see it.

RickD wrote:

Kenny wrote:

RickD wrote:

Kenny wrote:

RickD wrote:
Kenny,

Can you prove that assertion, that atheism is the default position?

When I said “for me atheism is the default position” that means for me, Atheism doesn’t make any type of claim; it is simply skeptical of specific claims. As I said before, when considering what people believe as God, I acknowledge what many may call God may exist, but because I don’t call it God, (I may call him another person, Sun, Nature, alien invaders, etc) I am atheist. Hope that answers your question.

Ken

No, it doesn't answer my question. You asserted that atheism is your default position. You stated that as a fact, correct? In other words, you said, "It's a fact, that atheism is the default position for me."

When you make a factual claim, you need to back it up with evidence, or its just an unsubstantiated opinion. And that means you need to stop giving us unsubstantiated opinions, as facts.

See what I'm saying?

Let me try explaining it this way. When I say default position, I mean atheism doesn’t asset a position, God isn’t even in the picture. When someone introduces God into the picture and describes/explains God to me, I reject what they say. Does this make sense to you? If not, perhaps you can give an example of the type of evidence you are looking for that convince you that for me Atheism is a default position.

Ken

Kenny,

I'm just not buying your assertion that atheism is your default position. Here's why...

You said you used to be a Christian. So, however you defined "Christian", it means you thought about the existence of God, right? So then, you went from a position of Christian(as you define it), and ended up in a position of atheism(as you define it). Which means, you had to think about God, and if He exists. And if you thought about God, and concluded that He doesn't exist, then you chose atheism as your position. It's not a default position.

Get it?

Remember when you were perhaps 4 years old and you believed in Santa Clause? Why did you believe in Santa? Because those you trusted told you there was a santa; right? The evidence was there; how else did all those gifts get under that tree? You even met him and took pictures with him at the Mall!
By the time you were 8 years old or so, your faith in Santa began to fade; you became skeptical that the guy in the Mall was actually Santa, you became skeptical if someone could travel the entire world in less than a day, etc. etc. Now did you choose to not believe in Santa? Did you just one day while eating your bowl of “Captin’ Crunch” decide “Guess what; I’m going to quit believing in Santa, just for the heck of it!” Or was it a gradual thing. At this age of 8 did you have absolute proof that the guy in the Mall was not Santa and nobody could travel the entire world in less than a day?

I believe everybody is born Atheist. You are either Theist or Atheist, you can’t be both nor neither. In order to be Theist I believe you have to have an understanding of what God is, and infants are unable to have such an understanding. Just like the Piraha people of the Amazon that I mentioned earlier, who never heard of any type of God thus they are considered atheist, an infant who never heard of God I believe are atheist as well.

I was born Atheist and was introduced to Theism as I grew up, then when I became an adult, I became skeptical of theism and went back to Atheism. I didn't just decide one day to become Atheist over my Corn Flakes, it was a gradual thing. Belief is not something you choose (though you can control the direction of your beliefs) belief is what happens when reason and logic demands it. Just as reason and logic demanded you reject what you were told about Santa when you were a child, reason and logic demanded I reject what I was told about God as an adult.
Does this make sense to you? If not, tell me where I’m going wrong.


Ken

PaulSacramento wrote:Everything we believe in involves a CHOICE to believe in it.
Atheism is a choice.
It is a choice to NOT believe the evidence for God and TO BELIEVE the evidence that no god exists.

Perhaps that's where we disagree; I believe belief happens after reason and logic demands it; not before. I also don't believe one is required to have evidence against a claim in order to reject that claim.

Ken