Evidence for God from Science

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:27 am And black really means white; up is actually down!

Sorry, I didn’t get what you mean.

neo-x wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:24 am

Stu wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:14 am

neo-x wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:56 am

Stu wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:26 am

neo-x wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:09 am

Yes, I appreciate your point, Rick. I, however, don't see that. I do say that God has no influence on the course of evolution. Because if he does then it is not evolution. EVOLUTION CAN'T BE DIRECTED. (caps for emphasis).

I do say that man is aimless and random. God chose man to be his creature but I am denying the special creation of man, Im saying that man evolved. And for that matter, the entire universe is random. It is not fine-tuned or precise or intelligently designed - and whatever it might entail. That is the only way it makes sense, to me at least, if it is chaotic and random. When I look out, I don't see design or purpose at all.

I think God created but that was not our universe, I don't know what it was but God didn't actively divine or fine-tuned this universe.

Why do you think I have a problem with science and scriptures not aligning together, this is precisely why. Evidence points elsewhere and scripture to the contrary.

And that is the problem I have with the argument that tries to lump both together. Why evolve at all? Why not simply make man, if that is to be the end result? Which is exactly what scriptures say and I am fine with that. But no one who thinks evolution is the way God created, for the lack of a better word, can also believe that man is special. That is just not fair and logical. It is inconsistent with both the Bible and science.

Evolution and creation don't make any sense together, it's either one or the other. Either this whole universe is intelligently designed, has a purpose, is precise and is made for man, or it completely evolved and is random and chaotic. I think it's the latter.

Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

In the beginning God "CREATED", not "randomly assembled". This seems to contradict your view.

Do you really believe that all those fine-tuning laws that govern the universe were just random events? Even many atheists acknowledge this and have to appeal to a multiverse to make sense of the intricate fine-tuning.

Yes. I do think that.

So you don't believe that God created the universe and earth?
The earth took form through unguided forces?

I think I made that clear already.

So how do you account for the unbelievable amount of fine-tuning of the universe? Multiverse; just plain luck?

Stu wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:51 am

neo-x wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:24 am

Stu wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:14 am

neo-x wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:56 am

Stu wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:26 am

Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

In the beginning God "CREATED", not "randomly assembled". This seems to contradict your view.

Do you really believe that all those fine-tuning laws that govern the universe were just random events? Even many atheists acknowledge this and have to appeal to a multiverse to make sense of the intricate fine-tuning.

Yes. I do think that.

So you don't believe that God created the universe and earth?
The earth took form through unguided forces?

I think I made that clear already.

So how do you account for the unbelievable amount of fine-tuning of the universe? Multiverse; just plain luck?

How do you account for the unbelievable amount of choas and unnecessary creation out there? We are not even 0.1% of the known universe. Why are there 400 billion galaxies out there, each with hundreds of millions of stars and planets?

neo-x wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:39 am

Stu wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:51 am

neo-x wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:24 am

Stu wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:14 am

neo-x wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:56 am
Yes. I do think that.

So you don't believe that God created the universe and earth?
The earth took form through unguided forces?

I think I made that clear already.

So how do you account for the unbelievable amount of fine-tuning of the universe? Multiverse; just plain luck?

How do you account for the unbelievable amount of choas and unnecessary creation out there? We are not even 0.1% of the known universe. Why are there 400 billion galaxies out there, each with hundreds of millions of stars and planets?

You didn't answer my question...

Unnecessary creation?? It is only unnecessary if you come from the viewpoint of limited resources. God does not have limited resources so it is not a waste, he could have created as much as He liked and it would still not tax him.

But what it does show is that there is no doubt that there is a God. Such a vast universe created just for us to explore, discover and wonder at, what more could we want. God made it so that we would be amazed by His creation, including the fine-tuning.

What does the header of this very website say:

The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)

Stu wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:46 am

neo-x wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:39 am

Stu wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:51 am

neo-x wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:24 am

Stu wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:14 am

So you don't believe that God created the universe and earth?
The earth took form through unguided forces?

I think I made that clear already.

So how do you account for the unbelievable amount of fine-tuning of the universe? Multiverse; just plain luck?

How do you account for the unbelievable amount of choas and unnecessary creation out there? We are not even 0.1% of the known universe. Why are there 400 billion galaxies out there, each with hundreds of millions of stars and planets?

You didn't answer my question...

Unnecessary creation?? It is only unnecessary if you come from the viewpoint of limited resources. God does not have limited resources so it is not a waste, he could have created as much as He liked and it would still not tax him.

But what it does show is that there is no doubt that there is a God. Such a vast universe created just for us to explore, discover and wonder at, what more could we want. God made it so that we would be amazed by His creation, including the fine-tuning.

What does the header of this very website say:

The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)

It is a matter of purpose not resources. And that above is a very weak purpose. The same way it is illogical to create animals over eons and just to get to get to man, and not just make man. The whole idea is that the universe is intelligently designed and purposed for life. But it isn't. Its a minefield. A death trap, expanding to a degree that nothing will remain.

And the reason I didn't answer your question is that I don't think its fine tuned.

Btw guys. Really there is nothing new that I am bringing to the table. A while back K and I had almost the same discussion. One that I tremendously enjoyed and although we didn't agree it made me think and rethink.

However at this moment, everything I have written is a rehash of that. This is what I sincerely think to the best of my ability. I am not satisfied with the traditional arguments provided here, like stu did for example.

So feel free to critique or disagree. I am not going to debate a lot on this. I just don't have any wish to engage in a lengthy argument and I don't mean any disrespect to anyone.

Thanks.

Neo: It is a matter of purpose not resources. And that above is a very weak purpose. The same way it is illogical to create animals over eons and just to get to get to man, and not just make man.

"Illogical???!!!" To WHOM? YOU? Does eternal God, for Whom time is but a tool, consider a minute any more than a billion years? Why would God be in a hurry to do ANYTHING? As one of His key attributes is that He loves to create, to restore - we have no idea how many other universes and times God may have created besides this one - with purposes and times for each we can not know. How arrogant to think that the reason man came far after the animals was because God is illogical and incompetent, as if man is so important why didn't He begin with US??? You have NO idea of God's purposes and reasons.

Neo: The whole idea is that the universe is intelligently designed and purposed for life. But it isn't. Its a minefield. A death trap, expanding to a degree that nothing will remain.

But WHAT part of it is a death trap? Not the earth - not for NOW or God's purposes for it. And what makes you think He would have created everything where there weren't challenges or difficulties - as Jesus Himself did not seek to avoid them. Is there chaos in the universe - of course. But does that chaos matter to US, or NOW? Does it matter if the earth and universe were to end in destruction if God's purposes for it, as far as man (or even any other possible creatures), would have passed - or replaced with something better for us? Are you so mankind-centric that you don't realize how many worlds, dimensions, past and present God may have created? After all, He is an ETERNAL Being. It is absolutely laughable that a human being questions God's creation because they think His timing, sequences, and purposes seem illogical. BTW, God has already told us this universe has a shelf life. He's prolifically told us He created and controlled it - it's just that your reject key passages that reveal that. And without the chaos, size, trajectories, and sequence the universe has taken - then NO us!

Neo, you have pratered along for years about what you believe and how you don't believe so much of the foundational points of the Bible, sometimes seeming to affirm it and to deny it almost in the same breath. And I'd be surprised if anyone here that 's been following your comments for years can really understand what the heck you believe or why. But everyone should be able to see that what YOU assert to be possible about evolution is incompatible with God as Scripture reveals Him.

Phil, I'm sorry I'm not omniscient like you. I don't have all the answers and I don't have everything neatly lined across that confirms whatever I would like to believe to be absolutely true no matter how I reach there. I have my struggle, its an honest one.

As for my position, I have made it abundantly cear that Evolution and God doesn't go together. I'm surprised you have missed it all along.

P.s.
And don't think I didn't detect you calling me intellectually dishonest. If you read carefully you would not be saying that. I have clearly said that its incompatible. Why do you think we disagree in the first place?

And for the record you have managed to not engage in the argument but has turned this into all about me. Like every other time you do when I try to engage in any form of argument. I just don't get you sometimes. You act like a Bible thumper more than anyone else. You don't argue; you preach. I am just about tired of your antics. Seriously! You can enjoy this place without me. You have it all figured out. You know i used to think that you were passionate about what you say here but I don't think that anymore. I think you think of yourself better.

I don't see any other mods stopping you from not arguing the argument but engaging in this petty behavior for far too long and maybe thats fine for you but it isn't for me.

Peace out. Preach to the choir, that's all it is good for.

I take my bow gentlemen. It's been a good ride. The end is regretfuL.

My respect to the friends here.

I will be available on pm incase anyone gets in touch.

Thank you all.

Neo: Phil, I'm sorry I'm not omniscient like you. I don't have all the answers and I don't have everything neatly lined across that confirms whatever I would like to believe to be absolutely true no matter how I reach there. I have my struggle, its an honest one.

Neo, your problem is that you state that you believe in the One who IS omniscient, Who died for your salvation, but you don't believe what HE said and confirmed about the World and the Creation. And His followers, His hand-picked apostles have elaborated even further confirmations of what His words were - and that asserted that Jesus confirmed the entire Old Testament. This is what I don't get - you believe the part about Jesus being Resurrected, that you accept Him as God and Savior, and the only way you know of Him and the details surrounding His life are from the writings of His followers - but when those same writers contend certain things, you dismiss it - like the Creation story that Jesus and His apostles confirm.

Neo: As for my position, I have made it abundantly clear that Evolution and God doesn't go together. I'm surprised you have missed it all along.

You are correct, IF your contention means that God as the Bible describes Him, is not compatible with evolution as you view it. This tells me much more of what you must believe about God than it does about your evolution beliefs. How you think an all-powerful, unlimited, all-knowing God could create - or, let's say, make possible - an eventual mechanism that He didn't fully know what it would do and produce, or that He didn't have control over it, or He didn't know what His responses would be to what He clearly foresaw evolution would produce would be? If ANYTHING outside of God is not under His control, then He is not the God of the Bible - can't be. I think that's it, you like certain things the Bible says about God and Christ, but key things it says about Him you reject - so, "it must be wrong." So, you just cherrypick what you like and what makes sense to you. But you and I have the brains of worms in the mud compared to God and what He knows and does. I can't understand why you think God cannot be the way Scripture says He is, His attributes, His actions, and yet still like and accept the story of Christ - so much so that you became a Christian. How do you decide what is true in Scripture - whether YOU think its plausible or what you THINK science has proven that the Bible is wrong about?

Richard Feynman once said something really important about supposed certainties of scientists: " We have found it of paramount importance that in order to progress we must recognize our ignorance and leave room for doubt. Scientific knowledge is a body of statements of varying degrees of certainty — some most unsure, some nearly sure, but none absolutely certain."

So, when you have such great faith in what you THINK you know is proven about evolution, you might well ponder Feynman's quote above. IF evolution occurred, you have no idea whether what appears to be random truly is or not - oh, because all these scientists say that's the deal? Read the quote again!

Excuse me Neo - you challenge the deeply held views of most of the Christians here about what in the Bible is true or not, and criticize the belief that various parts of Scripture is God-given and true, and yet you can't withstand criticisms that show there are big problems between things you assert to be true and untrue? If you think this is personal and got your feelings hurt - you are very wrong. I and most everyone here really likes you Neo, and we deeply care about you - we like that you don't just cave in and think for yourself. But you must expect withering criticism of certain radical ideas you put forth on the forum. I didn't think you would be so thin-skinned to just run off? And I sincerely hope you won't. But I also don't know how to not challenge what I disagree with. Note that I've never criticized or been rude to YOU, but I have been aggressive about criticizing your contentions - a very different thing.

neo-x wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:09 am

RickD wrote: ↑Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:34 am First off, I'm not arguing for evolution. I'm assuming evolution, for the sake of the argument. In other words, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who believes in evolution, so I can try to understand what you mean. With that, you said:

So you can say God created. Fine by me. Or you can say that things happened on their own and deny creation. However, you can't say God created evolution or guided it.

I wouldn't say that God created evolution(again, I'm assuming evolution is true for argument sake), only that He created the mechanism for evolution. Or, He created the first life, which had the inherent, God given ability to evolve. Or, God guided evolution, in the sense of the definition of "guide", that He "directed or had an influence on the course of action of" evolution. That cannot be avoided if one believes in evolution and the existence of the Christian God. There's no logical way around that. I'm not saying that logic demands that God had to guide evolution along the way.
See the difference?

These two don't go together. Please, I'd like to reiterate: You can say that God has created everything that exists but you can't use evolution in it or squared circles because evolution's basic premise is that it isn't guided or created. If you change the definition, then evolution and creation basically mean the same thing. However, they aren't really the same thing.

Creation has a purpose and a goal; evolution is literally indifferent, aimless and random.

And this is where you are losing me. Unless you're using some scientific jargon that has a different meaning than the normal meanings of "aimless" and "random", then this goes against scripture. God has a purpose for mankind. However one gets to the existence of man, either some kind of creation, or evolution, then I don't see how you can say as a believer, that getting to the point of biological evolution where the spiritual being of man appears, that it was aimless and random.

So you can believe that life, as it exists, was created by God but you can't say that it also evolved at the same time. Either one or the other happened. Because saying that evolution was also "created" trivialises both creation and the scientific notion of evolution as well.

Of course. Life can both evolve to its current point, and be created the way it is now. That would be absurd. So again, if evolution is true, AND God exists, the mechanism for evolution to work, must have been created.

So, back to my original contention, with what you said here:

Evolution can never be guided.

If God is, and evolution is true, then God must have guided evolution, in the sense that He "directed or had an influence on the course of action of" evolution. As a believer in the God of scripture, you cannot logically avoid that.

Yes, I appreciate your point, Rick. I, however, don't see that. I do say that God has no influence on the course of evolution. Because if he does then it is not evolution. EVOLUTION CAN'T BE DIRECTED. (caps for emphasis).

I do say that man is aimless and random. God chose man to be his creature but I am denying the special creation of man, Im saying that man evolved. And for that matter, the entire universe is random. It is not fine-tuned or precise or intelligently designed - and whatever it might entail. That is the only way it makes sense, to me at least, if it is chaotic and random. When I look out, I don't see design or purpose at all.

I think God created but that was not our universe, I don't know what it was but God didn't actively divine or fine-tuned this universe.

Why do you think I have a problem with science and scriptures not aligning together, this is precisely why. Evidence points elsewhere and scripture to the contrary.

And that is the problem I have with the argument that tries to lump both together. Why evolve at all? Why not simply make man, if that is to be the end result? Which is exactly what scriptures say and I am fine with that. But no one who thinks evolution is the way God created, for the lack of a better word, can also believe that man is special. That is just not fair and logical. It is inconsistent with both the Bible and science.

Evolution and creation don't make any sense together, it's either one or the other. Either this whole universe is intelligently designed, has a purpose, is precise and is made for man, or it completely evolved and is random and chaotic. I think it's the latter.

Although I know this kind of thinking does not represent all Theistic Evolutionists I must say that this is just one of many reasons I want to see the Theory of Evolution destroyed and I'm convinced based on the evidence that only the Gap Theory can as we've already seen what the church has tried and it does not work.It is time to make changes and try something else the Gap Theory. I know it is hard to admit,but you must admit creationism is in a crisis now and has been for far too long.It is time for change.

neo-x wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:56 pm As for my position, I have made it abundantly cear that Evolution and God doesn't go together. I'm surprised you have missed it all along.

I'm hoping you still are willing to engage because first, we've been members here for almost the same time and I for one value your opinion. And second, what you said above needs clarification because I'll be honest with you Neo, that sounds a lot like you've completely given up on theism altogether in favor of materialistic evolution. Is that in fact the case? If not, then your statement above is incompatible with theism and needs to be restated, if for nothing else for it not be the last impression of your legacy here.

Im replying out of mutual respect for you Byb. Because of what you said. In very plain words, I haven't given up on theism. I believe in God and I also follow evidence to whatever conclusion it may lead. If that says the universe was not actively designed by God, so be it. I don't know where that puts me in terms of any label. You can read extensive posts I have made in the past or pm me if you have any questions about my position specifically. Happy to explain; but I am done defending myself instead of the argument, just to be attacked again every time I post.

My reason for leaving is how phil discusses me rather than the arguments and has been doing so endlessly. Yet somehow its alright. Just take this thread as an example# instead of refuting my point and showing how you can use the term evolution as in creation, which I contested, it was turned to how I don't believe this or that (again). Seriously? What does it matter what I think, It has zero bearing on the argument itself. If a murderer says murder is wrong do you discredit his argument because he's a murderer? Where is the logic in that?

And he had the audacity to call me thin skinned because I would not put up anymore with his disrespectful and insulting attitude - something I won't expect, of all people, a mod to carry out indefinitely, but here it is.

I see Philip discussing you, only as far as referring to you believing in certain things he's disagreeing with.

I see you making the same mistake that BavarianWheels made, when I called him a judaizer.

I don't see any ad hom attacks by Philip. I see him holding your feet to the fire, with your views. You yourself even admit that your brand of evolution, doesn't jive with scripture. And the fact that you find it a personal attack when someone points out the inconsistencies, with your evolution beliefs, and scripture, may be more troubling than the inconsistencies themselves.

I hope you don't pull a Danieltwotwenty on us, and just get offended and walk away. I really respect you, and love you as a brother, even though we do disagree.