Evidence for God from Science

One would think that with the intranet webz nowadays, it would be fairly easy to find a list of the times that angels appeared in human form, in scripture. I just can't find any such list.


My question is if anyone can show anywhere in scripture that an angel appears in human form, other than a time when they appear as humans for a specific God given purpose?

All I can say is that if you ever see an angel that looks remotely like Rick's avatar - RUN!!!

Philip wrote: ↑Sun May 13, 2018 6:14 pm All I can say is that if you ever see an angel that looks remotely like Rick's avatar - RUN!!!

That's fine Philip. You can mock my avatar picture, but it doesn't take away from the fact that he's one of the all-time greatest sidekicks in all of history.

Oh, you mean Benny's Henny?

RickD wrote: ↑Sun May 13, 2018 3:52 pm One would think that with the intranet webz nowadays, it would be fairly easy to find a list of the times that angels appeared in human form, in scripture. I just can't find any such list.


My question is if anyone can show anywhere in scripture that an angel appears in human form, other than a time when they appear as humans for a specific God given purpose?

Absence of evidence doesn't equal evidence of absence, you know that.

We have explicit statements of :
People entertaining angels unaware.
Of angels violating God's commands and leaving their abode and being punished for it ( whatever that may reference).
Of angels sinning and being imprisoned ( whatever sin that may have been)
And so forth.


I think it is disingenuous for us to suggest that, somehow, scholars and writers of the past, had NO BIBLICAL basis on which to believe that Genesis 5 COULD mean angels mating with human women.

RickD wrote: ↑Sun May 13, 2018 3:52 pm One would think that with the intranet webz nowadays, it would be fairly easy to find a list of the times that angels appeared in human form, in scripture. I just can't find any such list.

Here is a list of the times that angels are mentioned in Genesis
- Genesis 16:7
- Genesis 18:2
- Genesis 19:6
- Genesis 21:17
- Genesis 28:12
- Genesis 31:11
- Genesis 32:1
- Genesis 48:16

Other places that angels are mentioned in the Pentateuch (the books of Moses) include:
- Deuteronomy 33:2
- Numbers 22:30-31

So I think it is significant to note that Moses refers to angels a number of times throughout Genesis and the rest of the Pentateuch, and yet Moses never refers to them as "sons of God".

On the other hand Moses does refer to God's covenant people as "sons of the Lord your God" in Deuteronomy 14:1-2.

RickD wrote: ↑Sun May 13, 2018 1:27 pm Usually when someone says something like this:

The evidence is overwhelming scriptural support for this...

Without actually showing the overwhelming evidence, then it's probably not overwhelming.

I think you meant to say underwhelming scriptural evidence, and overwhelming non-biblical evidence.

Part one:

So, Rick, et all, hope the is enough evidence for you…

Back to the OT – look these verses over. When God speaks concerning human beings He uses the words sons of men or son of this or that family line. Not until Hosea 1:10 is there any clue that sons of men becoming sons of God as that would be impossible before Jesus came.

Deut 18:5 For the LORD your God has chosen him out of all your tribes to stand to minister in the name of the LORD, him and his sons forever.

Deut 21:5 Then the priests, the sons of Levi, shall come near, for the LORD your God has chosen them to minister to Him and to bless in the name of the LORD; by their word every controversy and every assault shall be settled.

Jdg4:6 Then she sent and called for Barak the son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali, and said to him, "Has not the LORD God of Israel commanded, 'Go and deploy troops at Mount Tabor; take with you ten thousand men of the sons of Naphtali and of the sons of Zebulun;

1Sa4:4 So the people sent to Shiloh, that they might bring from there the ark of the covenant of the LORD of hosts, who dwells between the cherubim. And the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, were there with the ark of the covenant of God.

1Sa4:11 Also the ark of God was captured; and the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, died.

1Ki8:25 Therefore, LORD God of Israel, now keep what You promised Your servant David my father, saying, 'You shall not fail to have a man sit before Me on the throne of Israel, only if your sons take heed to their way, that they walk before Me as you have walked before Me.'

1Ki13:11 Now an old prophet dwelt in Bethel, and his sons came and told him all the works that the man of God had done that day in Bethel; they also told their father the words which he had spoken to the king.

1Ki13:12 And their father said to them, "Which way did he go?" For his sons had seen which way the man of God went who came from Judah.
1Ki13:31 So it was, after he had buried him, that he spoke to his sons, saying, "When I am dead, then bury me in the tomb where the man of God is buried; lay my bones beside his bones.

2Ki4:7 Then she came and told the man of God. And he said, "Go, sell the oil and pay your debt; and you and your sons live on the rest."

2Ki19:37 Now it came to pass, as he was worshiping in the temple of Nisroch his god, that his sons Adrammelech and Sharezer struck him down with the sword; and they escaped into the land of Ararat. Then Esarhaddon his son reigned in his place.

1Ch6:49 But Aaron and his sons offered sacrifices on the altar of burnt offering and on the altar of incense, for all the work of the Most Holy Place, and to make atonement for Israel, according to all that Moses the servant of God had commanded.

1Ch16:42 and with them Heman and Jeduthun, to sound aloud with trumpets and cymbals and the musical instruments of God. Now the sons of Jeduthun were gatekeepers.

1Ch23:14 Now the sons of Moses the man of God were reckoned to the tribe of Levi.

1Ch23:28 because their duty was to help the sons of Aaron in the service of the house of the LORD, in the courts and in the chambers, in the purifying of all holy things and the work of the service of the house of God,

1Ch24:5 Thus they were divided by lot, one group as another, for there were officials of the sanctuary and officials of the house of God, from the sons of Eleazar and from the sons of Ithamar.

1Ch25:5 All these were the sons of Heman the king's seer in the words of God, to exalt his horn. For God gave Heman fourteen sons and three daughters.

1Ch28:4 However the LORD God of Israel chose me above all the house of my father to be king over Israel forever, for He has chosen Judah to be the ruler. And of the house of Judah, the house of my father, and among the sons of my father, He was pleased with me to make me king over all Israel.

2Ch6:16 Therefore, LORD God of Israel, now keep what You promised Your servant David my father, saying, 'You shall not fail to have a man sit before Me on the throne of Israel, only if your sons take heed to their way, that they walk in My law as you have walked before Me.'

2Ch13:5 Should you not know that the LORD God of Israel gave the dominion over Israel to David forever, to him and his sons, by a covenant of salt?

2Ch13:10 But as for us, the LORD is our God, and we have not forsaken Him; and the priests who minister to the LORD are the sons of Aaron, and the Levites attend to their duties.

2Ch23:3 Then all the assembly made a covenant with the king in the house of God. And he said to them, "Behold, the king's son shall reign, as the LORD has said of the sons of David.

2Ch24:7 For the sons of Athaliah, that wicked woman, had broken into the house of God, and had also presented all the dedicated things of the house of the LORD to the Baals.

2Ch24:27 Now concerning his sons, and the many oracles about him, and the repairing of the house of God, indeed they are written in the annals of the book of the kings. Then Amaziah his son reigned in his place.

2Ch26:18 And they withstood King Uzziah, and said to him, "It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the LORD, but for the priests, the sons of Aaron, who are consecrated to burn incense. Get out of the sanctuary, for you have trespassed! You shall have no honor from the LORD God."

Ezr3:9 Then Jeshua with his sons and brothers, Kadmiel with his sons, and the sons of Judah, arose as one to oversee those working on the house of God: the sons of Henadad with their sons and their brethren the Levites.

Ezr6:10 that they may offer sacrifices of sweet aroma to the God of heaven, and pray for the life of the king and his sons.

Ezr7:23 Whatever is commanded by the God of heaven, let it diligently be done for the house of the God of heaven. For why should there be wrath against the realm of the king and his sons?

Ezr8:18 Then, by the good hand of our God upon us, they brought us a man of understanding, of the sons of Mahli the son of Levi, the son of Israel, namely Sherebiah, with his sons and brothers, eighteen men;

Ezr10:2 And Shechaniah the son of Jehiel, one of the sons of Elam, spoke up and said to Ezra, "We have trespassed against our God, and have taken pagan wives from the peoples of the land; yet now there is hope in Israel in spite of this.

Neh10:28 Now the rest of the people—the priests, the Levites, the gatekeepers, the singers, the Nethinim, and all those who had separated themselves from the peoples of the lands to the Law of God, their wives, their sons, and their daughters, everyone who had knowledge and understanding—

Neh11:22 Also the overseer of the Levites at Jerusalem was Uzzi the son of Bani, the son of Hashabiah, the son of Mattaniah, the son of Micha, of the sons of Asaph, the singers in charge of the service of the house of God.

Psa42:1 To the Chief Musician. A Contemplation of the Sons of Korah. As the deer pants for the water brooks, So pants my soul for You, O God.

Psa44:1 To the Chief Musician. A Contemplation Of the Sons of Korah. We have heard with our ears, O God, Our fathers have told us, The deeds You did in their days, In days of old:

Psa45:2 You are fairer than the sons of men; Grace is poured upon Your lips; Therefore God has blessed You forever.

Psa46:1 To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of the Sons of Korah. A Song For Alamoth. God is our refuge and strength, A very present help in trouble.

Psa 47:1 To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of the Sons of Korah. Oh, clap your hands, all you peoples! Shout to God with the voice of triumph!

Psa 48:1 A Song. A Psalm of the Sons of Korah. Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised In the city of our God, In His holy mountain.

Psa 66:5 Come and see the works of God; He is awesome in His doing toward the sons of men.

Psa 88:1 A Song. A Psalm of the Sons of Korah. To the Chief Musician. Set to "Mahalath Leannoth." a Contemplation of Heman the Ezrahite. O LORD, God of my salvation, I have cried out day and night before You.

Ecc 1:13 And I set my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all that is done under heaven; this burdensome task God has given to the sons of man, by which they may be exercised.

Ecc 3:10 I have seen the God-given task with which the sons of men are to be occupied.

Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart, "Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals."

Isa 37:38 Now it came to pass, as he was worshiping in the house of Nisroch his god, that his sons Adrammelech and Sharezer struck him down with the sword; and they escaped into the land of Ararat. Then Esarhaddon his son reigned in his place.

Isa 51:20 Your sons have fainted, They lie at the head of all the streets, Like an antelope in a net; They are full of the fury of the LORD, The rebuke of your God

Isa 60:9 Surely the coastlands shall wait for Me; And the ships of Tarshish will come first, To bring your sons from afar, Their silver and their gold with them, To the name of the LORD your God, And to the Holy One of Israel, Because He has glorified you.

Jer_35:4 and I brought them into the house of the LORD, into the chamber of the sons of Hanan the son of Igdaliah, a man of God, which was by the chamber of the princes, above the chamber of Maaseiah the son of Shallum, the keeper of the door.

Eze 20:31 For when you offer your gifts and make your sons pass through the fire, you defile yourselves with all your idols, even to this day. So shall I be inquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live," says the Lord GOD, "I will not be inquired of by you.

Eze 24:21 'Speak to the house of Israel, "Thus says the Lord GOD: 'Behold, I will profane My sanctuary, your arrogant boast, the desire of your eyes, the delight of your soul; and your sons and daughters whom you left behind shall fall by the sword.

Eze 44:15 "But the priests, the Levites, the sons of Zadok, who kept charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near Me to minister to Me; and they shall stand before Me to offer to Me the fat and the blood," says the Lord GOD.

Eze 46:16 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "If the prince gives a gift of some of his inheritance to any of his sons, it shall belong to his sons; it is their possession by inheritance.

Dan 5:21 Then he was driven from the sons of men, his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild donkeys. They fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till he knew that the Most High God rules in the kingdom of men, and appoints over it whomever He chooses...

All verses quoted from NKJV
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Part Two

There is a distinction in the OT as it used the phrase - sons of men – more than sons of God referring to men, in fact one must twist scriptures to prove sons of gods are all human: if in all cases sons of God used in Gen 6:1-6 means human beings why was not that phrased used in the OT verses cited in Part One?

Look again at a few:

Psa66:5 Come and see the works of God; He is awesome in His doing toward the sons of men.

Why did God not allow the phrase sons of God referring to men and man to be used in these verses?

Ecc1:13 And I set my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all that is done under heaven; this burdensome task God has given to the sons of man, by which they may be exercised.

Ecc3:10 I have seen the God-given task with which the sons of men are to be occupied.

Ecc3:18 I said in my heart, "Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals."

Next: There is prophetic transition when we become sons of God as well and notice clearly

Rom8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

The Holy Spirit was not sent to indwell people and remain (remain is key) in the OT 'the remaining' was not possible only temporary: OT Prophecy to this effect until a certain time when the Messiah Jesus came as he said and Give the Holy Spirit by New Birth

Hosea 1:10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There it shall be said to them, 'You are sons of the living God.'

Joel 2:28 "And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions.

Eze36:27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Eze37:14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.'

Jesus said -

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

Pretty clear this one verse above destroys the Gen 6 argument look at these as well...

Joh14:17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

Joh14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Act1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

Now it is clear from the bible the following: For Humans to be called the sons of God, they must have the indwelling Holy Spirit in them per adoption and salvation as Jesus taught. This did not happen before - Spirit did not remain inside a person in the OT - only temporary. Sons of men were used most often becoming sons of God at a later date to remain with God forever....

Mat5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.

Luk20:36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Rom8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Rom8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.

Rom9:26 "AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

Gal3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"

Eph5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Col3:6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience

Is this enough evidence for you?

All verses quoted from NKJV
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Part Three

Now look at these verses where it actually says that the sons of god existed at time of creation before any human being existed:

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Now read these verses and the phrase sons of God came to present themselves before God who could these be men if Exodus 33:20 But (God) said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live." To be true?

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

All verses are from NKJV
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B. W. wrote: ↑Mon May 14, 2018 7:32 am Not until Hosea 1:10 is there any clue that sons of men becoming sons of God as that would be impossible before Jesus came.

The following two verses from Scripture directly contradict your assertion.
- Deut 14:1-2 (which was written by Moses before the time of Hosea) refers to God's covenant people as "sons of the Lord your God.
- Luke 3:38 refers to Adam (who lived long before the time of Hosea) as a "son of God"

Part Four

Now we come to these verses

Psa 82:6 I said, "You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High.

And Jesus’ comment:

John 10:34-35 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I SAID, "YOU ARE GODS" '? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken)…

“You can Understand the Bible: Study Guide and Commentary Serie sby Dr Bob Utely answers this as quoted from below:

Dr Utley, on John 10:34-35

▣ "you are gods" Jesus used a quote from Psa 82:6. It used elohim to refer to human judges (see Elohim in Special Topic at Joh 6:20). These judges (though wicked) are called "sons of the Most High." These Jews were attacking Jesus because although He was a man He claimed to be: (1) the Son of God and (2) one with God. Yet other men (cf. Exo 4:16; Exo 7:1; Exo 22:8-9; Psa 82:6; Psa 138:1) were called "gods."

Jesus' rabbinical argument seems to follow this line: the Scriptures are true, men are called elohim, therefore, why do you call Me a blasphemer for asserting that I am the Son of God? The term Elohim is plural in Hebrew but translated singular and used a singular verb when referring to the OT Deity. See SPECIAL TOPIC: NAMES FOR DEITY at Joh 6:20.

This may be a typical Johannine word play: (1) a term that has two connotations and (2) a Greek question that expects a "yes" answer.

Joh 10:35 "(and the Scripture cannot be broken)" John often comments on Jesus' dialogues. It is uncertain whether this is a statement of Jesus or John. However, since both are equally inspired, it does not matter. The thrust of the quote is the trustworthiness of Scripture. Jesus and the Apostles viewed the OT and their interpretations of it as the very words of God (cf. Mat 5:17-19; 1Co 2:9-13; 1Th 2:13; 2Ti 3:16; 1Pe 1:23-25; 2Pe 1:20-21; 2Pe 3:15-16).

Bishop H. C. G. Moule in The Life of Bishop Moule says, "He [Christ] absolutely trusted the Bible, and, though there are in it things inexplicable and intricate that have puzzled me so much, I am going, not in a blind sense, but reverently to trust the Book because of Him" (p. 138).

Verses cited from NKJV
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B. W. wrote: ↑Mon May 14, 2018 7:35 am in fact one must twist scriptures to prove sons of gods are all human:

You are playing with strawmen again...
No one is claiming that "sons of God" always refers to humans.
I think it is clear that Job does refer to angels in service to God as "sons of God"

DBowling wrote: ↑Mon May 14, 2018 8:05 am

B. W. wrote: ↑Mon May 14, 2018 7:32 am Not until Hosea 1:10 is there any clue that sons of men becoming sons of God as that would be impossible before Jesus came.

The following two verses from Scripture directly contradict your assertion.
- Deut 14:1-2 (which was written by Moses before the time of Hosea) refers to God's covenant people as "sons of the Lord your God.
- Luke 3:38 refers to Adam (who lived long before the time of Hosea) as a "son of God"

Part Five

Look again:

Deut 14:1 "You are the children of the LORD your God; you shall not cut yourselves nor shave the front of your head for the dead. 2 For you are a holy people to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. NKJV

All created beings created by God are classed as his offspring. Before the Fall, Adam was one such who stood in the Heavenly Council before God as His representative whom God created to govern the earth as a reflection of God's own character traits. Man fell and Adam lost that position period as Romans Chapter Five clearly points out.

Deut 14:1-2

Point is, God does not say sons of god in verse two does he? He uses what phrase - you are a holy people to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples Deut 14:2

Why didn't use - sons of God instead - see it? Guess not - pride is a difficult thing to let go of...

God is also speaking prophetically pointing to the Messiah when this is actualized as it is written in:

1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
1Pe 2:10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
1Pe 2:11 Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul,
1Pe 2:12 having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation. NKJV

Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Gal 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

Rom 8:23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

All Verse cited from NKJV

Again, please argue with God on this matter - when did the adoption take place? Why is it called an adoption?

Sometimes I wish folks would use common sense but when pride is in the way - impossible...

Believe what you want to believe ... Have a nice day!

So one can deny all the evidence by twisting the context of a few verses to disprove what the mass of evidence says to prove the Following:

1-God was once supernatural but no longer is that way in the Modern world - he changed

2-Human beings are far wiser than any fallen angels or watcher - who hold the world under his sway because we can manipulate DNA, mix species together, create AI and robotics, but these angelic beings could not because we are smarter

3-The Days of Noah - nothing unusual went on other than people screwing women whom God hates so God had to destroy the entire world for it - because of bad sexual relationships -

Yet the bible says - God so Loved the world hmmmm???

Wow!!!!!
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B. W. wrote: ↑Mon May 14, 2018 8:28 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Mon May 14, 2018 8:05 am

B. W. wrote: ↑Mon May 14, 2018 7:32 am Not until Hosea 1:10 is there any clue that sons of men becoming sons of God as that would be impossible before Jesus came.

The following two verses from Scripture directly contradict your assertion.
- Deut 14:1-2 (which was written by Moses before the time of Hosea) refers to God's covenant people as "sons of the Lord your God.
- Luke 3:38 refers to Adam (who lived long before the time of Hosea) as a "son of God"

Look again:

second look...
and Luke 3:38 and Deut 14:1-2 still directly contradict the following assertion
"Not until Hosea 1:10 is there any clue that sons of men becoming sons of God as that would be impossible before Jesus"

Why didn't use - sons of God instead

So are you asserting that "sons of God" and "sons of the Lord your God" are somehow not sons of the same God?

B.W., just because someone disagrees with your assessment of this issue does NOT mean it's only out of pride - as the objections have been respectfully noted. Not too mention, many Godly, inerrancy believing, highly respected Christian theologians and scholars disagree with you on your assessment of this issue. You need to show some grace! And the other huge straw man I see being asserted is that those not accepting of the angels view are thus anti-supernatural. NO! It's just that, in this instance, with this particular issue, they simply don't believe the text warrants an assignment of angels to the Sons of God interpretation.

And for the life of me, I'm completely baffled as to why anyone thinks getting this correct is such an important issue! There are just far more important issues to spend time on!