Evidence for God from Science

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Thu May 31, 2018 9:01 am

RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 3:15 pm All the discussions we've had about the sabbath, and you still don't understand my pov?

Please show me where I have ever said, implied, or argued that the sabbath is "no longer binding".

Just the very fact that you think I'm arguing that, shows me that you have no intention of having an honest conversation with me.

Oh RickD...I know exactly your POV...and I know you don't argue that the Sabbath is no longer binding.

Your POV is that the Sabbath is Jewish ( which is disproved by Genesis 2:2,3 and Mark 2:27 and last I knew, JEW is not spelled M-A-N )
You're whole argument is that, though ironically you serve a Jewish Savior, you dislike and disassociate yourself completely from anything you PERCEIVE as Jewish...except your Savior. Contradiction?
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And again, you misrepresent my point of view. Does this ever end with you? Is it possible for you to ever have an honest conversation with anyone who disagrees with you?

There comes a point where enough is enough. You've gone way past that point. I'm asking you to stop refuting straw man arguments. I won't ask again.

RickD wrote: ↑Thu May 31, 2018 10:22 am

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Thu May 31, 2018 9:01 am

RickD wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 3:15 pm All the discussions we've had about the sabbath, and you still don't understand my pov?

Please show me where I have ever said, implied, or argued that the sabbath is "no longer binding".

Just the very fact that you think I'm arguing that, shows me that you have no intention of having an honest conversation with me.

Oh RickD...I know exactly your POV...and I know you don't argue that the Sabbath is no longer binding.

Your POV is that the Sabbath is Jewish ( which is disproved by Genesis 2:2,3 and Mark 2:27 and last I knew, JEW is not spelled M-A-N )
You're whole argument is that, though ironically you serve a Jewish Savior, you dislike and disassociate yourself completely from anything you PERCEIVE as Jewish...except your Savior. Contradiction?
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And again, you misrepresent my point of view. Does this ever end with you? Is it possible for you to ever have an honest conversation with anyone who disagrees with you?

There comes a point where enough is enough. You've gone way past that point. I'm asking you to stop refuting straw man arguments. I won't ask again.

Weren't you the one that told me that the Sabbath is Jewish, that God didn't give Christians the Law and that that Law is Jewish in nature anyway? It's all the same point being made really.

So, again, you're not providing any biblical proof of your standing while I am left providing all the biblical documentation for why I believe what I do.

It seems, with respect, that you're too busy jumping in with statements that I'm wrong or your right without any evidence to back up what you claim. It would help the discussion and your perception that I'm refuting straw man arguments if you would engage in real discussion instead of snide remarks.

I know I would appreciate engaging with the intelligent portion of RickD on the subject and a good amount less with the jovial and sarcastic RickD. We can engage with the latter when we've established our positions more clearly.

Don't you think?
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RickD, I respectfully ask that you provide your POV with scripture so that you're POV will be less likely to be "misrepresented".

If you don't want to do this, then maybe you might think about not participating in a discussion where such things might be asked of your opinions on the subject.

Thanks in advance.
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BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Thu May 31, 2018 9:18 am

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 5:25 pm Just quick question Bav. Which is worse and why: to not keep the Sabbath or not believe Jesus is God?

I would guess the answer to this is the same answer given by Jesus to the Pharisees whom were trying to trick Him in asking which law was more important.
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Jesus wasn't a Seventh Day Adventist. I think the answer is pretty straight-forward.

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Thu May 31, 2018 3:25 pm

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Thu May 31, 2018 9:18 am

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 5:25 pm Just quick question Bav. Which is worse and why: to not keep the Sabbath or not believe Jesus is God?

I would guess the answer to this is the same answer given by Jesus to the Pharisees whom were trying to trick Him in asking which law was more important.
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Jesus wasn't a Seventh Day Adventist. I think the answer is pretty straight-forward.

No...but He was a Sabbath-keeper...otherwise His death was not unlike my mother's in 2001.
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Bav: No...but He was a Sabbath-keeper...otherwise His death was not unlike my mother's in 2001.

Meaning?

Philip wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:00 am

Bav: No...but He was a Sabbath-keeper...otherwise His death was not unlike my mother's in 2001.

Meaning?

You tell me.

What does it mean that our Savior was/is a Sabbath-keeper in keeping with the Spirit? e.g. Romans 8:1-17
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BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:34 am No...but He was a Sabbath-keeper...

The Jews at the time of Jesus would disagree with you...

Exodus 20:8-12

Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Mark 2:23-28

23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”
25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”
27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Notice Jesus' response when he and his disciples were confronted for doing "what is unlawful on the Sabbath".
Jesus didn't claim they weren't really disobeying the Sabbath laws.
He claimed that some things were more important than obeying the sabbath laws and pointed to David eating sacred bread as an example of other factors overriding ritual law.

Which is the context for Jesus' comment
"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath"

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:10 am

Philip wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:00 am

Bav: No...but He was a Sabbath-keeper...otherwise His death was not unlike my mother's in 2001.

Meaning?

You tell me.

What does it mean that our Savior was/is a Sabbath-keeper in keeping with the Spirit? e.g. Romans 8:1-17
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I was asking per your comment referencing your mother - what does she have to do with this?

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:09 am The Jews at the time of Jesus would disagree with you...

What possible relevance is there in THEIR reckoning of Sabbath-keeping?

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:09 am Exodus 20:8-12

Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Mark 2:23-28

23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”
25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”
27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Notice Jesus' response when he and his disciples were confronted for doing "what is unlawful on the Sabbath".
Jesus didn't claim they weren't really disobeying the Sabbath laws.
He claimed that some things were more important than obeying the sabbath laws and pointed to David eating sacred bread as an example of other factors overriding ritual law.

Which is the context for Jesus' comment
"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath"

Whoa!! Now you're alluding to make a point that Jesus was disobedient to the 4th Commandment. Rather the point being that the Pharisees made laws in order to keep the Sabbath holy that were not/are not in keeping with Christ's keeping ( and therefore in the ultimate meaning of keeping ) the Sabbath.

If Jesus broke the 4th commandment, then as the NT says, He would be a sinner and therefore unworthy of taking on the sin of the world being the Law would point that out. So the point better is to say that Christ certainly broke the Sabbath law as the PHARISEES thought the Sabbath was to be kept...but certainly it was/is not sinful to pick grain on the Sabbath.

I agree...the context of the Sabbath is for M-A-N...not just for the Jews bolstered by the fact of when the Sabbath was made holy...prior to any Jew.
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Philip wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:48 am

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:10 am

Philip wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:00 am

Bav: No...but He was a Sabbath-keeper...otherwise His death was not unlike my mother's in 2001.

Meaning?

You tell me.

What does it mean that our Savior was/is a Sabbath-keeper in keeping with the Spirit? e.g. Romans 8:1-17
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I was asking per your comment referencing your mother - what does she have to do with this?

My mother is a sinner because she is guilty of breaking the Law. e.g. Romans 3:20 Romans 3:31 Romans 7:7

A sinner cannot atone for the sins of the world.

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 5:25 pm Just quick question Bav. Which is worse and why: to not keep the Sabbath or not believe Jesus is God?

If the 4th Commandment points at sin...and there's no biblical verse to say it doesn't, then breaking one is like breaking the other...or them all. Love. Love is the most important. Matthew 22:40 Romans 13:10 Galatians 5:14

One is not worse than the other. Both fall under the act(s) of love for God.
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BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:11 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:09 am Exodus 20:8-12

Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Mark 2:23-28

23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”
25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”
27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Notice Jesus' response when he and his disciples were confronted for doing "what is unlawful on the Sabbath".
Jesus didn't claim they weren't really disobeying the Sabbath laws.
He claimed that some things were more important than obeying the sabbath laws and pointed to David eating sacred bread as an example of other factors overriding ritual law.

Which is the context for Jesus' comment
"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath"

If Jesus broke the 4th commandment, then as the NT says, He would be a sinner and therefore unworthy of taking on the sin of the world being the Law would point that out. So the point better is to say that Christ certainly broke the Sabbath law as the PHARISEES thought the Sabbath was to be kept...but certainly it was/is not sinful to pick grain on the Sabbath.

I definitely agree it was not sinful to pick grain on the Sabbath!

Do you think David 'broke the Law' when he ate consecrated bread?
(Jesus describes it as "unlawful")
Do you think David sinned when he ate consecrated bread?

It is Jesus who establishes equivalence between picking grain on the Sabbath and David eating consecrated bread.

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:57 pm Do you think David 'broke the Law' when he ate consecrated bread?
Do you think David sinned when he ate consecrated bread?

It doesn't matter unless you're making the case that David was without sin. I'm not.

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:57 pm It is Jesus who establishes equivalence between picking grain on the Sabbath and David eating consecrated bread.

Ok...so then we agree that picking grain and eating consecrated bread is not breaking the Sabbath command.

My point to make here is that since Jesus is the God that made the Sabbath holy ( John 1:1 ) then He knows what is or isn't breaking of the command. And if Jesus, in the flesh, lived according to the Spirit ( Romans 8:7 ) then Jesus is Righteous...not by declaration from God, but IS righteous. The law has no sin to point that Jesus is guilty of.

Therefore Jesus is a ( perfect ) keeper of the Sabbath as the Sabbath is part of the Law that points at sin.

Jesus is certainly NOT a Seventh-day Adventist, but He was a Sabbath-keeper otherwise He'd be a sinner.
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DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:57 pm (Jesus describes it as "unlawful")

Yes...He did describe it as "unlawful"...but that was ACCORDING to the Pharisees manner of "keeping" the Sabbath. Men's traditions.

So was walking too many steps, etc...
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BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:08 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:57 pm Do you think David 'broke the Law' when he ate consecrated bread?
Do you think David sinned when he ate consecrated bread?

It doesn't matter unless you're making the case that David was without sin. I'm not.

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:57 pm It is Jesus who establishes equivalence between picking grain on the Sabbath and David eating consecrated bread.

Ok...so then we agree that picking grain and eating consecrated bread is not breaking the Sabbath command.

Getting closer...
Since Jesus equated picking grain on the Sabbath with David eating consecrated bread let's focus on Jesus' example...

Was it lawful or unlawful for David to eat consecrated bread?
Was it a sin for David to eat consecrated bread?

Therefore Jesus is a ( perfect ) keeper of the Sabbath as the Sabbath is part of the Law that points at sin.

Jesus is certainly NOT a Seventh-day Adventist, but He was a Sabbath-keeper otherwise He'd be a sinner.

This is where we disagree.
I think Jesus is making the total opposite point in Mark 2 to what you are asserting.
In Mark 2 Jesus is equating working on the Sabbath (which is unlawful) with eating consecrated bread (which is also unlawful).

This is similar to what Jesus does later in Mark 7.
Even though it was unlawful to eat certain foods, in Mark 7:19 Jesus declared all foods to be clean.
Again Jesus is drawing a distinction between what was considered to be 'unlawful' under the Law and behavior that is truly sinful.