Evidence for God from Science

Oliwia88 wrote:Hi, I'm Oliwia and I'm from Poland. I know that my English is not perfect but I try. I'm here because in Poland there isn't a good page like this.

I'm two generations away from Galicia. We're almost brother and sister.

"Nie se dam." (Never say die.)

Hi.

I'm currently studying the stuff on the researchers-of-truth website. It's a bit esoteric so forgive me if I post lots of weird stuff.

Ok, so I've decide to write a little more on the "who am I " introduction here. Believe it or not, I feel more comfortable in doing this now than I ever did when I first joined, about a month ago. I'll keep any reference to being Catholic to a minimum so as not to offend the sensibilities of some on the site.

My upbringing was Presbyterian. The truth is, the church was a great place to go for social interaction,. but I got nothing out of grape juice and dough ball services. I almost certainly would not as my father, who went on Sundays occasionally told me religion was a crutch that the weak rely on. I was so young (3rd grade)that his words didn't even mean much, but i knew enough that i didn't have to worry about this portion of my life to live up to his ideals ... the bar was very low anyway.

I loved the minister and my Sunday morning bible school. The instructors were always someones mom or dad and they were always very interested in teaching. I learned most of all I would know of God from them at an early age and nothing else until the age of 26.

3 years of college, ran out of money, 4 years of Navy, ran out of patience, went back to school (5 years after first attempt) on GI Bill, finished college, while working 3 pt jobs to meet night school schedule, met my wife to be and all during this time, was struck with the desire to actually figure out who God is. I read everything I could (way before internet in '76-78) and found a reading list that looks like this :

Late Great Planet Earth, Hal Lindsey (and 3 other Lindsey books)
Trumpet of Gabriel, Michael Brown
Prayer Warrior, Michael Brown
Thunder of justice, Ted and Maureen Flynn
Jesus Teaches on Prayer, Ray Stedman , to name only a few and many many more in this genre .... over the span of 2-3 years.

I met my wife of 37 years, who is Catholic and although we lived in seriously fun sin, she still had a strong faith and when the time came to marry I was asked to raise the kids under her faith and I had no problem with that, as I never had a solid religious base and never felt, as some in here do, such vitriol of her or any others faith.
We lived in marriage for 3 years before I converted. But, before I converted i already knew the Catholic Church was the way I was going to go for both myself, my wife, my kids getting a unified signal from both parents and because I felt the Sacraments added such a wonderful flavor to an already firm and stable biblical background. The Sacraments are the salt to the Word of God's "meal" Christ offered me. A flavor not available unless consumed as a lifestyle, not superficially on Sundays only as i was raised.

I was shocked in to my new Catholic religious fervor at the age of 37, but that's another story perhaps for another time. So that's about it, I just wanted to let some of you know how all of this (me) got my start.

Hey ES.

Thanks for sharing that story with us. I didn't realize that you were such an old fogey.

I have a question for you. You said you converted to Catholicism. If Presbyterians and Catholics are both Christians, what exactly is the converting part? I always thought "converting" only happened when someone changed their beliefs. AFAIK, Presbyterians and Catholics both believe the same essentials about saved by grace through faith, and who Jesus Christ is, right? Or am I missing something?

Thanks for sharing ES.
I have no animosity whatsoever for practising Catholics, or anyone for that matter irregardless of their denomination. I would never criticise personal faith. I am a lot more liberal in that sense than many. I believe that true love and faith for God can be found in all denominations, JW and mormons included. I seperate the believer from their 'church'. We are human and within the 'church' human error is found. What bothers me is when 'church' is revered over Jesus. There are a lot of christians that get more hot under their collar when their denomination is criticised than our Christian Faith.
Our fervour and passion should be for Christ, not 'church'.
Any church can get it wrong sometimes.
When they are placed above error, incapable of error and as authority then there is a real risk of 'the blind leading the blind'.
Church can be a wonderful experience and bring many closer to God. I respect everyone's path and faith. Our faith is in Jesus, that is what binds believers. I may critique your church ES, but I would not question your personal faith, or the personal faith of anyone based on their denomination.

Peace and love

ES,

Your way of explaining how you feel about the Sacraments is a really good way of explaining how I felt about them after looking into them. They are an additional thing to my faith, not the be all and all. It`s my faith in Christ and God that really matters and that is a solid belief. The Sacraments and the Mysteries all just add to my faith not replace it.
I have only ever once taken Communion, and I have to say, it was an indescribable feeling. I have been reading about the Sacraments and I admit there are some valid points that people may raise as to why they may not be necessarily a good thing but I think the same can be said about any ritual within faith. I know that God knows what is in my heart and who and what I am praying to and worshiping.

Anything that brings people closer to God can only be a good thing.

I was part of a sacrament on the weekend. My wife's baby nephew received a baptism.
It had no real meaning. My wife's brother doesn't even really believe in God and yet he's promising to raise his baby son Christian?
Such was all superficial, really a show for parents who were Catholic. Like because parents were Catholic, they're Catholic too.

The godparents barely believed in Christ. One I stood in for because they couldn't attend, and he is very Atheist.
And as part of the ceremony, the words the godparents and like are meant to speak, they're suppose to ensure the baby is raised up Christian too... seriously? Atheists? Did no one in the church bother to talk to them?
So, what point? What meaning? Why would any church perform such with people who don't really believe?

It might be beautiful, nice and the like. But, seemed to me more like the holy ceremony itself was a white-washed
-- all superficial no substantial meaning, and "the Church" didn't care much at all.

And then, my wife, when she truly discovered Christ... the feeling is one of betrayal by her Mum and brother because her family is Catholic.
Such just shows to me there is more going on. More importance being placed on religion and a church rather than Christ Himself.
I don't care if you're Catholic or one of the 3999 other Christian denominations... that is just messed up Christianity.

The sacraments are only beautiful to me (whatever one considers a sacrament) because of what they symbolise and their meaning.
With their meaning gone, so too in their beauty. May as well chant something around a camp fire.

Hey ES.

Thanks for sharing that story with us. I didn't realize that you were such an old fogey.

I have a question for you. You said you converted to Catholicism. If Presbyterians and Catholics are both Christians, what exactly is the converting part? I always thought "converting" only happened when someone changed their beliefs. AFAIK, Presbyterians and Catholics both believe the same essentials about saved by grace through faith, and who Jesus Christ is, right? Or am I missing something?

You don't need to read so much in to it Rick... it's converting from one denomination to another ... that's it. If the terminology is incorrect... apologies.

EssentialSacrifice wrote:Hey ES.

Thanks for sharing that story with us. I didn't realize that you were such an old fogey.

I have a question for you. You said you converted to Catholicism. If Presbyterians and Catholics are both Christians, what exactly is the converting part? I always thought "converting" only happened when someone changed their beliefs. AFAIK, Presbyterians and Catholics both believe the same essentials about saved by grace through faith, and who Jesus Christ is, right? Or am I missing something?

You don't need to read so much in to it Rick... it's converting from one denomination to another ... that's it. If the terminology is incorrect... apologies.

No, no ES, you misunderstood. Rick simply thinks that Presbyterianism is as far as anyone can go without delving into heresy. He simply can't comprehend why anyone would decide to completely cross over to the other side. Bad enough you were Presbyterian, why on earth would you make it even worse?

Thanks for the response Melanie,

When they are placed above error, incapable of error and as authority then there is a real risk of 'the blind leading the blind'.

The sinlessness of Mary, which is not stated any where in scripture.
The perpetual Virgin, completely contradicted by scripture

German reformer Martin Luther's (1483-1546) writings often address the subject of Mary: On the Divine Motherhood of Mary, he wrote
In this work whereby she was made the Mother of God, so many and such great good things were given her that no one can grasp them. ... Not only was Mary the mother of him who is born [in Bethlehem], but of him who, before the world, was eternally born of the Father, from a Mother in time and at the same time man and God. (Weimer's The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 7, p. 572.)

Luther, true to Catholic tradition, wrote on the Virginity of Mary:
It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. ... Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer's The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v.11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)

The French reformer John Calvin (1509-1564) also held that Mary was the Mother of God
It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor. ... Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God. (Calvini Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Braunschweig-Berlin, 1863-1900, v. 45, p. 348, 35.)

On the perpetual virginity of Mary, "Calvin routinely brushes aside the difficulties sometimes raised from "first born" and "brothers of the Lord."" (O'Carroll, M., 1983, Theotokos, M Glazier, Inc.: Wilmington, DE, p. 94.) In bold... all scholars of any repute do Melanie, First born is only a term of the first one born and in no way indicates further children... Brothers of the Lord, he also easily brushed aside as it only denotes either relatives as cousins, step children, even others in the family of the towns in question...

The Swiss reformer, Ulrich Zwingli (1484-1531), wrote, on the divine motherhood of Mary:
It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God. (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformation, Berlin, 1905, v. 6, I, p. 639.)
On the perpetual virginity of Mary, Zwingli wrote,
I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin. (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, v. 1, p. 424.)

I did want you to see it's not only Catholics who feel this way ... Here, Luther, along with Calvin (Calvinist)and Zwingli (Dutch Reform). The biggest non-Catholic hitters on post Reformation. It would seem the blind leading the blind is an issue for many.

K,

I can tell you this is as sad a post as I have ever read ... first and foremost, please read the link I have supplied for a base of info on my response.

http://www.ehow.com/list_6086319_requir ... hurch.html

I have lived, as a Catholic in Portland, Or., Chicago, IL., Erie, Pa., Pittsburgh, Pa. and now in Maine, and I can tell you in all these dioceses the link I sent you were adhered to completely. All four of my kids were baptized in three of these places I have listed and I m a godfather in the last. I am flabbergasted at your experience.. on to your post...

I was part of a sacrament on the weekend. My wife's baby nephew received a baptism.
It had no real meaning. My wife's brother doesn't even really believe in God and yet he's promising to raise his baby son Christian?
Such was all superficial, really a show for parents who were Catholic. Like because parents were Catholic, they're Catholic too. If you believe in Baptism's effects then thank God for Parental Intent which allows for the validity of Baptism if the intent is sincere. The baby has that going for (time not wasted)it if your sister is sincere, in the eyes of the church.

The godparents barely believed in Christ. One I stood in for because they couldn't attend, and he is very Atheist. Why in the world would your sister choose these kinds of people for Godparents... how in the world could anyone expect it to go any other than it did .. terribly.

And as part of the ceremony, the words the godparents and like are meant to speak, they're suppose to ensure the baby is raised up Christian too... seriously? Atheists? Did no one in the church bother to talk to them? See my link.. they don't, unless they do things so differently down under..
.
So, what point? What meaning? Why would any church perform such with people who don't really believe? Exactly, see my link. Bad choices all around.

It might be beautiful, nice and the like. But, seemed to me more like the holy ceremony itself was a white-washed
-- all superficial no substantial meaning, and "the Church" didn't care much at all. The rite of Baptism is one of the most important of all Sacraments. "My Church" considers it an integral part of attaining salvation and take it so seriously that ...see my link.

And then, my wife, when she truly discovered Christ... the feeling is one of betrayal by her Mum and brother because her family is Catholic.
Such just shows to me there is more going on. More importance being placed on religion and a church rather than Christ Himself.
I don't care if you're Catholic or one of the 3999 other Christian denominations... that is just messed up Christianity. I have many such stories in reverse, yet and still where the people involved are messed up, but that is hardly the church's fault. If your church involved in this Baptism allowed this cluster then absolutely, shame on them.

The sacraments are only beautiful to me (whatever one considers a sacrament)There are seven sacraments in the Church: Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Matrimony, and Holy Orders. The purpose of the sacraments is to make people holy, to build up the body of Christ, and finally, to give worship to God; but being signs, they also have a teaching function. because of what they symbolise and their meaning

With their meaning gone, so too in their beauty. May as well chant something around a camp fire. It is easier to become a campfire girl than most know.

I suggest you all continue creating new threads and talking there.
We want to keep this thread for introduction of new members.

Thanks.

EssentialSacrifice wrote:Hey ES.

Thanks for sharing that story with us. I didn't realize that you were such an old fogey.

I have a question for you. You said you converted to Catholicism. If Presbyterians and Catholics are both Christians, what exactly is the converting part? I always thought "converting" only happened when someone changed their beliefs. AFAIK, Presbyterians and Catholics both believe the same essentials about saved by grace through faith, and who Jesus Christ is, right? Or am I missing something?

You don't need to read so much in to it Rick... it's converting from one denomination to another ... that's it. If the terminology is incorrect... apologies.

Thanks for explaining ES. That's why I asked. Terminology is fine. I just wanted to know what you meant.

Byblos wrote:

EssentialSacrifice wrote:Hey ES.

Thanks for sharing that story with us. I didn't realize that you were such an old fogey.

I have a question for you. You said you converted to Catholicism. If Presbyterians and Catholics are both Christians, what exactly is the converting part? I always thought "converting" only happened when someone changed their beliefs. AFAIK, Presbyterians and Catholics both believe the same essentials about saved by grace through faith, and who Jesus Christ is, right? Or am I missing something?

You don't need to read so much in to it Rick... it's converting from one denomination to another ... that's it. If the terminology is incorrect... apologies.

No, no ES, you misunderstood. Rick simply thinks that Presbyterianism is as far as anyone can go without delving into heresy. He simply can't comprehend why anyone would decide to completely cross over to the other side. Bad enough you were Presbyterian, why on earth would you make it even worse?

You know Byblos, I used to like you.

And FYI, I don't think going from being a Presbyterian to a practicing Catholic, is completely crossing to the other side. You make it sound like I think he went from being a jedi, to a sith .

Rick, where do you find those wild smilies... dude

Byblos: fore warned is fore armed... Prsbytry included Thx.

ps 1/137 sorry ...