Re: More Trinity stuff
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:29 pm
The below has nothing to do with Fortigrun or Pierac directly but serves as an attempt to get us back on track as well as explore the ancient Hebrew language as a language of pictures. In doing so, you'll Read much about Jesus and his preexistence. I hope to soon write a brief summery on what the Messiah as servant means and its symbolism and from this you'll discover the many things from the Lord. I post many Links — read slow — use links and your browser's back arrow to get back to this thread. Take your time...
Text: Isaiah 33:22, “For the LORD is our judge; the LORD is our lawgiver; the LORD is our king; he will save us.” ESV
This is an interesting passage of scripture as it states Yehôvâh is our judge; Yehôvâh is our lawgiver; Yehôvâh is our king and it is He alone that will save. I know there are those that will try to twist the text somehow by claiming that the 'He' mentioned in the text somehow refers to an exalted mortal agent of God and not to God himself or that Yehovah also refers to an exalted mortal agent and not in reference to God at all. Such translation does violence to the grammar of this text. Note that in Genesis 12:4 Yehôvâh spoke to Abram and in Genesis 2:7 Yehôvâh Elohim made man. Conclusion - Yehôvâh has been around a long time and Yehôvâh is not a title describing man's lordship.
The ancient Hebrew language used in the bible is a wholistic language and not primarily a pragmatic scholastic language. It looks for the whole part and paints a picture within the mind of the whole. It usages of words express a picturesque icon within the mind. It is a language that engages thought to begin exploring the mystery of the meaning of scripture text by connecting contextual themes. By doing so, the reader and hearer explore the richness of where the word of God leads, by his Spirit, not man's.
For example, in Isaiah 33:22 the word 'he' is personal pronoun that is connected to the Lord. The words 'saves us' is in the Hiphil Imperfect tense with a Pronomial Suffix 'us' attached which is view as part of a whole event or action, situation and in this case is connected to the words He and Lord of verse 22.
This simply put, indicates plainly that the 'he' mentioned in this verse is the LORD GOD our judge; the LORD GOD our lawgiver; the LORD GOD our king and the word translated Lord is the one translated Yehôvâh - meaning God himself — not a mortal agent! The language is holistic here and is to be read so. I will add some arrows and brackets to show how this holistic reading works:
Isaiah 33:22, “For [the LORD] is [our judge]; the[LORD] is [our lawgiver]; the [LORD] is [our king]; he [will save us].”
Or you can say it this way: “For the LORD is our judge; the LORD is our lawgiver; the LORD is our king; he [The Lord] will save us — [The Lord our judge; the LORD our lawgiver; the LORD our king].”
The grammar of the text point to the Lord and no one else: Even the word King used in verse is all-inclusive leading to the identity of who the King is mentioned in Isaiah 33:17 as the LORD our king.
In fact Isaiah 33:10-24 is so packed with information concerning who the Messiah is that it will pay to explore it more closely. Please use the scripture links for a demonstration of how God speaks though the scriptures in contextual form of holistic thought which ultimately unveils the Messiah. Yes, the word of God will lead to scriptures I have not even linked, that is — if you are his and can hear as Jesus described in John chapter eight verse Forty Seven.
Isaiah 33:10, "Now I will arise," says the LORD, "now I will lift myself up; now I will be exalted.” ESV - Let us look at this verse's three distinct statements in more detail:
“Now I will arise:” Psalms 82:8:The Lord will arise and then Judge! How? — he will come as a servant — the Messiah: see Isaiah 11:1-12 Now how? Isaiah 9:6, Luke 2:11 and see Luke 2:42-52 The servant came but not how men would think. Isaiah 60:1-2, see verse 16, Luke 4:16-44 Don't get excited Fortigrun the people turned on him — why if the servant was only mortal like a prophet as they were believing and seemed desirous for him to perform for them? Jesus was telling them that he will do greater works than the mortal agents did before. Jesus was stating in essences to them that he was the Messiah — not just only a mortal man but rather - God and man because only God can do greater works - as there is no violation of scriptures in this — God's doing. You do not understand Messiah as servant.
Next, look at next section of Isaiah 33:10:“Now I will lift myself up” John 3:13-15 Jesus came down from Heaven implies preexistence. This is only one verse out of many highlighting this fact. Ephesians 1:20 Who raised Jesus from the dead? Romans 10:9 How did God lift Himself up if Himself was not Himself?
Next part: “Now I will be exalted”
Philippians 2:5-9 God took on the form of a servant, which explains much of Jesus' actions and words. Isaiah 52:10-15 The Messiah and the cross — note Isaiah 53 comes next. Isaiah 43:10-11 The bible states clearly that only God can save. God will be exalted during the end of days, just as the context leads:
Isaiah 33:10-13, “10 now I will arise," says the LORD, "now I will lift myself up; now I will be exalted. 11You conceive chaff; you give birth to stubble; your breath is a fire that will consume you. 12 And the peoples will be as if burned to lime, like thorns cut down, that are burned in the fire." 13 Hear, you who are far off, what I have done; and you who are near, acknowledge my might.”
Note: Revelations 19:11-16 — He has a name written that no one knows but himself states verse 12 and this in accord with the Ancient Hebrew tradition stating that that no one knows God's real name. Any doubt who this is cleared up in verse 16 - The King of kings and Lord of lords. Note connection of word King and how it is used in Isaiah 33:10-24.
Isaiah 33:14 “The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling has seized the godless: "Who among us can dwell with the consuming fire [Hebrews 12:18-28]? Who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings [Revelations 21:27]?" 15 He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly, who despises the gain of oppressions, who shakes his hands, lest they hold a bribe, who stops his ears from hearing of bloodshed and shuts his eyes from looking on evil, 16 he will dwell on the heights; his place of defense will be the fortresses of rocks; his bread will be given him; his water will be sure.” ESV
Note: Hebrews 12:18-28; Revelations 21:27; 2 Peter 3:7-13. It is interesting in 2 Peter 3:18 that Peter calls Jesus Lord and Savior as well as worthy of eternal glory. Is not only God our savior and no other? Does not God tell us none is worthy of praise except himself? Isaiah 43:10-11
2 Peter 3:18, “but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen” NASB
I pray that you also grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Isaiah 33:17-19, “17 Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty; they will see a land that stretches afar. 18 Your heart will muse on the terror: "Where is he who counted, where is he who weighed the tribute? Where is he who counted the towers?" 19 You will see no more the insolent people, the people of an obscure speech that you cannot comprehend, stammering in a tongue that you cannot understand.” ESV
Note: Those that will behold the King in his beauty, Isaiah 25:8-9, see all he his, in all his splendor, and will see a land that stretches afar; a new heavens and earth, Revelations 21:5-8, and from here they shall muse at terror, Revelation 20:14, a lake of fire. Who is this King? Isaiah 25:8-9 states it is the Lord.
Isaiah 33:20, “Behold Zion, the city of our appointed feasts! Your eyes will-see Jerusalem, an untroubled habitation, an immovable tent, whose stakes will never be plucked up, nor will any of its cords be broken.” ESV
Note: Behold Zion [and this don't mean a park in Utah, brother] the City of the appointed feast. Notice the direct correlation of Isaiah 25:6-7; Revelations 19:9; Revelations 21:1-4, also verse 9-12, to Isaiah 33:20-21.
Isaiah 33:21-24, “But there the LORD in majesty will be for us a place of broad rivers and streams, where no galley with oars can go, nor majestic ship can pass. 22 For the LORD is our judge; the LORD is our lawgiver; the LORD is our king; he will save us. 23 Your cords hang loose; they cannot hold the mast firm in its place or keep the sail spread out. Then prey and spoil in abundance will be divided; even the lame will take the prey.24 And no inhabitant will say, "I am sick"; the people who dwell there will be forgiven their iniquity.” ESV
Isaiah 33:22, “For the LORD is our judge; the LORD is our lawgiver; the LORD is our king; he will save us.” ESV
Did you not realize that bible uses the term vessels to often describe mortal beings 2 Corinthians 4:7? No ship - no vessel - no matter how great or small shall pass and enter. In other words this symbolizes that no works of men shall be the means to enter this glorious land as it is all of God's own doings not of any human work: as it is written in Ephesians 2:8-10 — “For by God's grace you have been save, not of human works least anyone should boast…”
Next, notice how in Isaiah 33 that the contextual flow of verse 21 and 23 is broken in the middle by an out of context verse 22? Verse 22 seems out of place but is it? If you understand how the ancient Hebrew language used word pictures then here is a prime example: The ships/vessels represent human beings as 2 Corinthians 4:7 points out. The Lord is to rule in our center, or Heart, we need no tackle and ropes to stay on course. Now note: Ezekiel 36:23-28, Jeremiah 31:31-37 state a new law will be written within the Heart and this Law is found in Deuteronomy 10:12 and Matthew 22:37-40. The Lord is our Lawgiver — Acts 15:8-11 — a law of love that unites wholly not a law of ropes and fetters that will be placed in between man — the heart.
Hebrews 9:15, “Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.”
There is a reason Isaiah 33 verses 21 and 23 are divided by verse 22!
Now continue: Revelations 21:22-27, and Revelations 22:1-5.
Isaiah 33:22: “For the LORD is our judge; the LORD is our lawgiver; the LORD is our king; he [The Lord] will save us — [The Lord our judge; the LORD our lawgiver; the LORD our king].” According to Grammar this verse is for the heart of man so that the Lord reside there — Ephesians 3:17 And if Christ reside there by faith — then who is the Lord?
Isaiah 33:10, "Now I will arise," says the LORD [our judge], "now I will lift myself up [LORD our lawgiver]; now I will be exalted [LORD our king].”
Jesus our judge, Jesus our lawgiver — law written on tablet of our heart - Jesus our King! He saved us. Truly the Law, Psalms, and Prophets testify of Christ just as Jesus said!! And as Ephesians 3:17 reveals where Christ Jesus dwells.
I hope you read the links and this helps in some small way to learn of Christ.
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-
-
Text: Isaiah 33:22, “For the LORD is our judge; the LORD is our lawgiver; the LORD is our king; he will save us.” ESV
This is an interesting passage of scripture as it states Yehôvâh is our judge; Yehôvâh is our lawgiver; Yehôvâh is our king and it is He alone that will save. I know there are those that will try to twist the text somehow by claiming that the 'He' mentioned in the text somehow refers to an exalted mortal agent of God and not to God himself or that Yehovah also refers to an exalted mortal agent and not in reference to God at all. Such translation does violence to the grammar of this text. Note that in Genesis 12:4 Yehôvâh spoke to Abram and in Genesis 2:7 Yehôvâh Elohim made man. Conclusion - Yehôvâh has been around a long time and Yehôvâh is not a title describing man's lordship.
The ancient Hebrew language used in the bible is a wholistic language and not primarily a pragmatic scholastic language. It looks for the whole part and paints a picture within the mind of the whole. It usages of words express a picturesque icon within the mind. It is a language that engages thought to begin exploring the mystery of the meaning of scripture text by connecting contextual themes. By doing so, the reader and hearer explore the richness of where the word of God leads, by his Spirit, not man's.
For example, in Isaiah 33:22 the word 'he' is personal pronoun that is connected to the Lord. The words 'saves us' is in the Hiphil Imperfect tense with a Pronomial Suffix 'us' attached which is view as part of a whole event or action, situation and in this case is connected to the words He and Lord of verse 22.
This simply put, indicates plainly that the 'he' mentioned in this verse is the LORD GOD our judge; the LORD GOD our lawgiver; the LORD GOD our king and the word translated Lord is the one translated Yehôvâh - meaning God himself — not a mortal agent! The language is holistic here and is to be read so. I will add some arrows and brackets to show how this holistic reading works:
Isaiah 33:22, “For [the LORD] is [our judge]; the[LORD] is [our lawgiver]; the [LORD] is [our king]; he [will save us].”
Or you can say it this way: “For the LORD is our judge; the LORD is our lawgiver; the LORD is our king; he [The Lord] will save us — [The Lord our judge; the LORD our lawgiver; the LORD our king].”
The grammar of the text point to the Lord and no one else: Even the word King used in verse is all-inclusive leading to the identity of who the King is mentioned in Isaiah 33:17 as the LORD our king.
In fact Isaiah 33:10-24 is so packed with information concerning who the Messiah is that it will pay to explore it more closely. Please use the scripture links for a demonstration of how God speaks though the scriptures in contextual form of holistic thought which ultimately unveils the Messiah. Yes, the word of God will lead to scriptures I have not even linked, that is — if you are his and can hear as Jesus described in John chapter eight verse Forty Seven.
Isaiah 33:10, "Now I will arise," says the LORD, "now I will lift myself up; now I will be exalted.” ESV - Let us look at this verse's three distinct statements in more detail:
“Now I will arise:” Psalms 82:8:The Lord will arise and then Judge! How? — he will come as a servant — the Messiah: see Isaiah 11:1-12 Now how? Isaiah 9:6, Luke 2:11 and see Luke 2:42-52 The servant came but not how men would think. Isaiah 60:1-2, see verse 16, Luke 4:16-44 Don't get excited Fortigrun the people turned on him — why if the servant was only mortal like a prophet as they were believing and seemed desirous for him to perform for them? Jesus was telling them that he will do greater works than the mortal agents did before. Jesus was stating in essences to them that he was the Messiah — not just only a mortal man but rather - God and man because only God can do greater works - as there is no violation of scriptures in this — God's doing. You do not understand Messiah as servant.
Next, look at next section of Isaiah 33:10:“Now I will lift myself up” John 3:13-15 Jesus came down from Heaven implies preexistence. This is only one verse out of many highlighting this fact. Ephesians 1:20 Who raised Jesus from the dead? Romans 10:9 How did God lift Himself up if Himself was not Himself?
Next part: “Now I will be exalted”
Philippians 2:5-9 God took on the form of a servant, which explains much of Jesus' actions and words. Isaiah 52:10-15 The Messiah and the cross — note Isaiah 53 comes next. Isaiah 43:10-11 The bible states clearly that only God can save. God will be exalted during the end of days, just as the context leads:
Isaiah 33:10-13, “10 now I will arise," says the LORD, "now I will lift myself up; now I will be exalted. 11You conceive chaff; you give birth to stubble; your breath is a fire that will consume you. 12 And the peoples will be as if burned to lime, like thorns cut down, that are burned in the fire." 13 Hear, you who are far off, what I have done; and you who are near, acknowledge my might.”
Note: Revelations 19:11-16 — He has a name written that no one knows but himself states verse 12 and this in accord with the Ancient Hebrew tradition stating that that no one knows God's real name. Any doubt who this is cleared up in verse 16 - The King of kings and Lord of lords. Note connection of word King and how it is used in Isaiah 33:10-24.
Isaiah 33:14 “The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling has seized the godless: "Who among us can dwell with the consuming fire [Hebrews 12:18-28]? Who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings [Revelations 21:27]?" 15 He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly, who despises the gain of oppressions, who shakes his hands, lest they hold a bribe, who stops his ears from hearing of bloodshed and shuts his eyes from looking on evil, 16 he will dwell on the heights; his place of defense will be the fortresses of rocks; his bread will be given him; his water will be sure.” ESV
Note: Hebrews 12:18-28; Revelations 21:27; 2 Peter 3:7-13. It is interesting in 2 Peter 3:18 that Peter calls Jesus Lord and Savior as well as worthy of eternal glory. Is not only God our savior and no other? Does not God tell us none is worthy of praise except himself? Isaiah 43:10-11
2 Peter 3:18, “but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen” NASB
I pray that you also grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Isaiah 33:17-19, “17 Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty; they will see a land that stretches afar. 18 Your heart will muse on the terror: "Where is he who counted, where is he who weighed the tribute? Where is he who counted the towers?" 19 You will see no more the insolent people, the people of an obscure speech that you cannot comprehend, stammering in a tongue that you cannot understand.” ESV
Note: Those that will behold the King in his beauty, Isaiah 25:8-9, see all he his, in all his splendor, and will see a land that stretches afar; a new heavens and earth, Revelations 21:5-8, and from here they shall muse at terror, Revelation 20:14, a lake of fire. Who is this King? Isaiah 25:8-9 states it is the Lord.
Isaiah 33:20, “Behold Zion, the city of our appointed feasts! Your eyes will-see Jerusalem, an untroubled habitation, an immovable tent, whose stakes will never be plucked up, nor will any of its cords be broken.” ESV
Note: Behold Zion [and this don't mean a park in Utah, brother] the City of the appointed feast. Notice the direct correlation of Isaiah 25:6-7; Revelations 19:9; Revelations 21:1-4, also verse 9-12, to Isaiah 33:20-21.
Isaiah 33:21-24, “But there the LORD in majesty will be for us a place of broad rivers and streams, where no galley with oars can go, nor majestic ship can pass. 22 For the LORD is our judge; the LORD is our lawgiver; the LORD is our king; he will save us. 23 Your cords hang loose; they cannot hold the mast firm in its place or keep the sail spread out. Then prey and spoil in abundance will be divided; even the lame will take the prey.24 And no inhabitant will say, "I am sick"; the people who dwell there will be forgiven their iniquity.” ESV
Isaiah 33:22, “For the LORD is our judge; the LORD is our lawgiver; the LORD is our king; he will save us.” ESV
Did you not realize that bible uses the term vessels to often describe mortal beings 2 Corinthians 4:7? No ship - no vessel - no matter how great or small shall pass and enter. In other words this symbolizes that no works of men shall be the means to enter this glorious land as it is all of God's own doings not of any human work: as it is written in Ephesians 2:8-10 — “For by God's grace you have been save, not of human works least anyone should boast…”
Next, notice how in Isaiah 33 that the contextual flow of verse 21 and 23 is broken in the middle by an out of context verse 22? Verse 22 seems out of place but is it? If you understand how the ancient Hebrew language used word pictures then here is a prime example: The ships/vessels represent human beings as 2 Corinthians 4:7 points out. The Lord is to rule in our center, or Heart, we need no tackle and ropes to stay on course. Now note: Ezekiel 36:23-28, Jeremiah 31:31-37 state a new law will be written within the Heart and this Law is found in Deuteronomy 10:12 and Matthew 22:37-40. The Lord is our Lawgiver — Acts 15:8-11 — a law of love that unites wholly not a law of ropes and fetters that will be placed in between man — the heart.
Hebrews 9:15, “Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.”
There is a reason Isaiah 33 verses 21 and 23 are divided by verse 22!
Now continue: Revelations 21:22-27, and Revelations 22:1-5.
Isaiah 33:22: “For the LORD is our judge; the LORD is our lawgiver; the LORD is our king; he [The Lord] will save us — [The Lord our judge; the LORD our lawgiver; the LORD our king].” According to Grammar this verse is for the heart of man so that the Lord reside there — Ephesians 3:17 And if Christ reside there by faith — then who is the Lord?
Isaiah 33:10, "Now I will arise," says the LORD [our judge], "now I will lift myself up [LORD our lawgiver]; now I will be exalted [LORD our king].”
Jesus our judge, Jesus our lawgiver — law written on tablet of our heart - Jesus our King! He saved us. Truly the Law, Psalms, and Prophets testify of Christ just as Jesus said!! And as Ephesians 3:17 reveals where Christ Jesus dwells.
I hope you read the links and this helps in some small way to learn of Christ.
-
-
-