Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:25 am**

jlay wrote:
First If, as you claim, that God/Jesus' Holy Laws were done away with then why do you use them to convict others of sin?
Rom. 7:7 "What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."
Rom. 3:20 "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."
Rom. 3:19 "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."
The Law condemns. It exposes the sinfulness of the soul. That is what Jesus did with the rich young ruler. The Law can only lead us to the cross. It can not save us. It shows us how lawless we really are.

Why want you get off trying to claim that I have said that we are to strive to keep God/Jesus' Holy Laws so as to be saved when I have not done so at no time? Striving to keep God/Jesus' Holy laws does not and can not save us as we are saved by grace not of works, but striving to keep God/Jesus' Holy Laws is our works. Please show me how anyone can do good works without striving to keep God/ Jesus Holy Laws? Yes God/Jesus' Holy Laws, when we break them, does convict us of sin as any law does even the laws of man so would you say that because the laws of man convicts us of sin/wrongdoing that they should be done away with? Yes God/Jesus' Holy Laws causes us to look to God/Jesus for forgiveness which is a good thing not an evil thing. As we are sinners and as sinner we arre unable to save ourselves so we have to made to know that we are and that our only hope is what Jesus did for us on the cross. So I ask you how is this contrary to us? If there was no law then there can be no sin and where there is no sin there is no need for forgiveness. Now the law makes us aware that we are sinners and that we need to be saved and yes it points us to Jesus and what He did for us, but His death did not and does not make null and void the law.
We are to strive to keep God/Jesus' Holy Commandments does for salvation, but because we Love Him and desire to obey Him in all things.
John 14:21, 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 5:9-10, 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
John 3:22-24, 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
I can post many more scripture that makes this very clear. We are not to strive to keep God/Jesus' Holy Laws in the hopes of gain for ourselves but because we love Him. Now if you are not willing to obey Him in all things how can you claim to Love Him? Why do you and all other christians keep trying to claim that I am saying that you have to keep God/Jesus' Holy Commandments so as to be saved? Can you please post any post of mine where I have done so? Why are you unwilling to accept the fact that we are commanded to keep His Holy Laws simple because we Love Him? Why do you refuse to do so and then still claim that you do Love Him? If your children steadfastly refused to obey you would you truly believe that they loved you? We strive to keep God/Jesus' Holy Laws so that the world can see that we Love Him and that we desire to obey Him. If you strive to keep His Holy Commandments in the hopes of gain then you gain nothing. You feel that since you gain nothing then you have no need to keep His Holy Laws.

Since, as you say, Jesus suffered and died on the cross so as to remove His Holy Laws, that you claim, were contrary to us then why do you make null and void what He did by using them to convict others of sin?
Jesus fulfilled the penality of the Law. Which was and is death. Now in what other way did Jesus fulfill the laws so that they could be removed? I ask you, If I standup in a court room and I tell the court that I am willing to serve the penality of man's laws for the person who is on trial for breaking it and I do serve that penality have I made null and void the law or just fulfilled the penality of it? If it were possible for me to I could serve all the penalities of all men who have broken the laws of men but that would not do away with the laws of men would it? Then why do you and all christians claim that when Jesus suffered the penality of our having broken God/Jesus' Holy Laws He did away with those laws? He did not. He simple suffered the penality of the law for us.

I would say that Jesus (in his own words) FULFILLED the law and the prophets. And as Paul said, "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 cor 5:21)

If, as you claim, that His Holy Laws were done away with by being nailed to His cross then does it not stand to reason that all men since that time are without sin as the Apostle says?
The Bible makes it clear that Christ was, "the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." (Rev. 13:8) And, "so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone" (Heb. 2:9) And that Jesus was, " who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. " (1 Tim. 2:6)
And, "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

Does this mean that all will inherit eternal life? No.

How does any of this answer my question? Now if there is no law then it is impossible to convict of sin. Would you feel it was right if you where arrested and convicted of a crime for which there was no law? Let's say you were arrested and convicted for washing your hands for which there is no law that says you cannot does so would you feel that this was just and fair? Now please do not tell me how stupid this is as I know, but that is pretty much what you are claiming. You are saying that even though there are no laws, as they have been done away with, that all will be convicted of having broken laws that no longer exist and you are claiming that that is just and fair. Now to be just and fair God would have to grant all who has lived after Jesus' death and ressurection eternal life as He has no laws to convict anyone of sin. Is not God a just and righteous God?

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes should not perish but have everlasting life."
The sin problem has been dealt with. Even thought sin till exist. No question about that. It is not a matter of whether sin exists, but has it been dealt with. The unbeliever's sin has been dealt with. But if they do not 'trust' in the work of Christ, then they will be condemned. The Law helps to enlighten the sinner as to what to beleive. That Jesus is the Christ, the lamb of God, who paid your sin debt.
I can't say this any more simply than this. Anyone who preaches that salvation is obtained by one's own efforts and striving to keep the OT, is preaching a false gospel.

What law helps sinners? According to you and all christians there is no law. Why want you answer my question? WHAT LAW? Is this question to hard to answer? I can not make it any more simple.
Please here again you are accusing me falsely by trying to say that I have said something I have not. Why do you continue to do so? Is it because you are afraid that if you do not then what you claim to be true will be seen that it is not true?

Quoting random verses and trying to apply them to Sabbath keeping is reckless and lacks any evidence of rightly dividing the word of truth.

I say to you that you are not keeping the sabbath if you do not acknowlege that God's Holy Sabbath is the seventhday and not the firstday.
Further, the Sabbath is not established by the Roman calendar. Saturday is derived from Saturn's day. A pagan diety. Many people today consider Sunday as the last day of the week, not the first. You couldn't even reconcile the Jewish calendar to the modern calendar if you wanted to.

You are wrong. Do you truly believe that God would be so unjust as to command us to do something knowing that we would not have the ways and means to do so? You do believe in an unjust god don't you.
Look at the history of the all calendars and you will find something very important. Something that only God could do. Yes men has changed the number of months in a year. Yes he has changed the number of days in a month. Yes men have given the days names of pagan gods. Man has done many things to alter and to change the calendar, but God is wiser than man and greater than man and He made sure that we can know what day is His Holy Sabbath, because even though man has made all these changes to the calendar the one thing God/Jesus has never allowed man to alter are to change in any way is the number of days in a week. He made them seven and number them and they remain seven. He even set the timing of each day, from sunset to sunset. So it is a simple matter of looking at your calendar and counting from left to right, sunday=day 1, monday=day 2, tuesday=day 3, wed.=day 4, thur.=day 5, friday=day 6, saturday=day 7. Now since God's days begin at sundown, or sunset, then His Holy Sabbath begins at sundown/sunset friday and last until sunset/sundown saturday.
Ask any Jew what day is God's Holy Sabbath they will tell you.

Romans 14:5-6 "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord."

What does this have to do with the question concerning the matter of if the law is still to be obeyed or not? If I consider one day above another has nothing to do with the question as to if the law is to be kept or not. It simple shows that if a man so wishes to keep all days as he was keeping God's Holy Sabbath then we have no right to judge him for it or if a man chooses to just keep the Sabbathday Holy we are not to judge him for it as they both are obeying God in the keeping of His Holy Sabbath.

If you want to take one day and honor the lord, then you are welcome. But when you try to force your view on others, you become a legalist, and burden yourself with the whole law as a means to righteousness.
Romans 14:13 "Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way."

Jesus gave several commandments in the NT. Most notable, 'love one another.' " If we take the encounter with the rich young ruler as a literal command. Then I would hope that you have sold all his possessions and given the proceeds to the poor. I can say with relative certainty that you have not.

I say to you that you have no idea what I have done or have not done, but I tell you if God/Jesus was to command me to sale all that I have and give it unto the poor I would do so without and problem, because I know my Father and my Lord and master Jesus, because just as He commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son Issac and Abraham was willing to do so and because he was willing to do so God gave unto him another to sacrifice instead. Now please do not try to tell me that when Jesus made this statement to the rich man He was also commanding me to do the same thing, because He was not. He was speaking to only the rich man He was not giving a commandment.

It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever:
There is certainly something to be said for Sabbath keeping and the nation of Israel. Jews are saved the same way anyone is saved, by faith. However, God called the Jews to manifest His Kingdom on earth, through the OT laws, and through their Nation.

So then you do not believe scripture where you are told that you are the adopted child of Abraham, Issac and Jacob? Nor do you seem to understand that the Jews are of the House of Judea and are not all of the children of Israel because you still have those of the House of Israel. You do not know nor do you understand that the nation of Israel split into two nations. One became known as the House of Judea and the other became known as the House of Israel. Nor do you know or understand the history of both so therefore you make th same mistake of all christians assuming that you are not of the seed of Abraham, but no matter even if you are not of the seed of Abraham if you are a child of God through Jesus then you are an adopted child of Abraham and therefore must obey all things as such, because would not require one to obey His laws while allowing the other to not do so. The is ample proof that God's laws were in affect long before He brought the children of Israel to be. There is even proof that God's Holy Sabbath was being kept before there were any children of Israel. Look at the story of the manna in the OT and take note that God told them this before He had given them His Holy Commandments on stone tablets.

Now that I have made it abundantly clear that I have never told anyone that they must strive to keep God/Jesus' Holy Commandments will you answer my question correctly without trying to imply that I have?

Yes I do believe that all who do not desire and who do not strive to keep God's Holy Commandments will not be saved.

I have never stated at anytime that we are to strive to keep God/Jesus' Holy Laws so as to be saved and please do not try to make out that I have.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Fitzlight,

You appear to be equating Jesus' commandments with the legal systems of the OT. Do you sincerely not see any difference? Jesus himself was accused by the Scribes and Pharisees of breaking "commandments" related to the Sabbath, washing before meals and then association with unclean people.

You seriously believe salvation comes from "striving to keep the commands?"

How sad.

bart

Posted: **Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:37 am**

One more time for those of you who seem to refuse to read what I have really posted and desire to try to claim that I have said something that I have not I will repent it one more time.

PLEASE READ THIS. I do not nor have I at anytime said that we must strive to keep God/Jesus' Holy Laws so as to be saved and all that claim I have or liars. I demand that any of you that are claiming that I have made such a claim please post where I have done so. Do not falsely accuse me show the proof for all to see.
I have said and I will say again that we are to keep His Holy Laws as our works because as we do good works we will obey His Holy Commandments and I say that none can do good works without keeping His Holy Laws. Now your salvation comes into this because God Himself says John 14:15, 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments
John 14:21, 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 15:9-10, 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1John 2:3-5, 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1John 5:2-3, By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. Now this says that His commandments are not grievous so why do you claim that they are? You claim that they are so grievous that He had to take them away. Now do you see why we are told, Romans 3:4, yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.John 1:6, 6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
1John 2:3-6, 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

If a person can not answer you without falsely accusing you what does that say of that person? Take notice at how many that have answered me first falsely accused me of saying something I have not and did not at anytime say. Why do they fell that they have to falsely accuse me? Is it so that may be they can discredit me falsely so as to discredit all else I have to say? Why can they not speak truthfully about what I have said? Is it because they can not stand the truth? Now what does God say about those that falsely accuse? What they do not know nor do they understand is that by falsely accusing me that prove that all that I have said is true or else they would be dealing with me in truth without the need of lies.
I have ask them to post any post of mine where I say that you must obey the commandments inorder to be saved. I have stated that if you do not strive to keep His commandments then you cannot be saved. Does this sound like double talk? It isn't and here is why. I obey God in accepting the fact that Jesus suffered and died on the stake so that I might have forgiveness of my sins and thereby be saved. My salvation is of grace not of works, but just as I obey God in accepting this free gift of salvation I must also be willing to obey Him in all other things or do you suppose that aws long as I continue to obey Him in accepting His free gift that I am free to not obey Him in anything else? How do I prove forth the fact that I have obeyed Him in accepting His free gift of forgiveness and salvation? I do so by obeying Him in all other things that He commands. How do I show that I love Him? Do I do so by refusing to obey Him in everything but the one that gets me the free gift? How is the world to know that I am of Him? Do they know simple because I say so? Does action have no place in that proof? Would the world believe me if I said to it, "I am of God because I accept and believe in Jesus," and yet I go about not obeying Him in anything elseand I simple live as all others of the world live? Ask the world if they believe you. You are judged by your actions not just what you say. You desire that God give you something for free and require you to do nothing in return except to accept that free gift then allow you to go on about living your life as you desire without any regard of obeying Him in anything else. Where is your proof that you love God? Tell me? Oh you have accepted His free gift is that all you have to prove your love for Him? Your love is worthless as it requires something in return for yourself. God's Love is pure because it to requires something in return, but it is not something for God it is something also for you, but you are to blind to see it.
You work for a man now how long do you think that man would allow you to work for him if you simple accepted the free gift of a job from him and did nothing else. You do not even showup for work on the day he tells you to so he calls you and says to you why did you not come to work as I commanded you to and you say to him because I accepted your free gift of the job and I need not do obey you in anything else. This is just what your saying to God and you think yourselves wise.
Please show me your proof that you Love God/Jesus and not that your are just willing to accept His free gift and nothing more. My proof is that I try each day to obey Him by trying to keep His Holy Laws and yes I fail, but I try. Now even though I fail I have Jesus' free gift of forgiveness to cover those times where I fail. Look at what you do? Where is your proof? If I see you would I know that you love God? All that I see in here so far are people who love themselves and or willing to accept Jesus free gift of salvation as long as nothing else is required of them. That is not love. I feel so sorry for you as you are so blinded and so unwilling to even seek out God's truth for yourselves. You love having others agree with you and you join in with them to attack me with lies. Did they not also do Jesus and the Apostles the same?
You do not know that it is you that reject God/Jesus' Holy Laws that shall in the last days attack and cause God's people to suffer. It is you that shall have the mark of the beast as you do right now. Am I condemning you? No you are condemning yourselves. You hate me? So to did they hate Jesus and the Apostles.
You have not answered my questions and you have not because you can't. Oh I know that you will claim that you have.
God I give these people unto Satan through Jesus so that hopfully by Your loving grace some of them might become unblinded, but Father as your only begotten Son Jesus said then so I to say, Not my will but Your will be done.

Posted: **Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:54 am**

I do not nor have I at anytime said that we must strive to keep God/Jesus' Holy Laws so as to be saved and all that claim I have or liars. I demand that any of you that are claiming that I have made such a claim please post where I have done so. Do not falsely accuse me show the proof for all to see.

Yes I do believe that all who do not desire and who do not strive to keep God's Holy Commandments will not be saved.

What am I misunderstanding? This is directly from this thread.

Posted: **Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:20 pm**

What Bart just said.

We've quoted your words in your own post. How is that putting words in your mouth?

Posted: **Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:30 pm**

B. W. wrote:
Fitzlight wrote: Please show me where God at anytime makes mention of an eighth day in scripture. …. There is no eighth day. God only counted seven and He made the seventhday holy and He set it up as His Holy Mark that shows that we are His people and He is our God who makes us Holy and all who reject His Holy Mark are not of Him.
Okay -- The Bible declares Boldly shows where and how ….

Lev 23:39, 40, 41, 42, 43, “Also on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the fruit of the land, you shall keep the feast of the LORD for seven days; on the first day there shall be a sabbath-rest, and on the eighth day a sabbath-rest. 41 You shall keep it as a feast to the LORD for seven days in the year. It shall be a statute forever in your generations. You shall celebrate it in the seventh month. 42 You shall dwell in booths for seven days…”

Thank you for proving my point I made about you — you do pick and choose what laws adhere and what ones do not. Your answer is a complete contradiction with itself.

What you accuse your fellow Christians of doing, you do so even more. Look in the mirror and take the beam out of your eye. You demonstrate that have no love in your heart and thus break the Law.

The true Sabbath rest continues on in perpetuity in Christ himself whom we find rest (Matthew 11:28, 29, 30) because he fulfilled the all the Law.

Col 2:16, 17, “So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.”

Heb 10:1, “For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.”

Questions: Does the Bible teach that God only loves those that keep the seventh day Sabbath or those that Believe in Christ?

Next, Did Jesus break the Sabbath law for gathering grain on the Sabbath? Why such a harvest of Grain?
-
-
-

Great post B.W.

Posted: **Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:12 pm**

I will start here with a Scriptural summary of the Gospel:

1. GOD
1. Is. 6:1-5, 5:16; Rev.4:8-11. God is Holy.
2. Dan. 4:35; Ps. 135:6. God is Sovereign.
3. 1 Jn. 4:8,16. God is Love.
4. Heb. 12:29. God is a Communing Fire.
5. Gen. 17:1; Jer. 32:17; Is. 43:13; Amos 9:2-3. God is Omnipotent.
6. Ps. 139:1-6; Rom. 11:33-36. God is Omniscient
7. Jer. 23:23-24; Ps. 139:7-12. God is Omnipresent
8 Ps. 145:17. God Is Righteous.
9. Ex. 34:6-7. God is Merciful.
10. Rev. 29:11-15. God is a Judge.
11. Jn. 4:23-24. God is a Spirit.
12. 1 Jn. 5:7; 2 Cor.13:14; I Pet. 1:2. God is one God revealed in three distinct persons; Father, Son, & Holy Spirit (trinity, not modalism).
13. Jn. 1:1-3, 14,18, 10:30-33, 17:5, 20:28; Acts 20:28; Rm. 9:5; Phi. 2:5-11; Col. 1:15-17, 2:9; I Tim. 3:16; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:1-12; II Pet. 1:1; Rev. 1:8. Jesus is God--YHWH.

2. SIN
1. Gen. 2:15-17. Adam and Eve's disobedience resulted in spiritual and physical death.
2. Rom. 6:23. The wages of sin is death.
3. Dt. 6:4-5. However, before sin entered the world man's purpose was to serve God and glorify Him.
4. Matt. 22:34-40. Therefore, man is now living in an abnormal condition.
5. Rom. 3:10, 5:6-9; Lk. 5:31,32 There is none righteous, no not one!
6. Rom. 3:23. Everyone, without exception, is a sinner.
7. Rom 5:12. Adam's sin nature is inherited by all mankind.
8. Is. 64:6-7. God views our good deeds as “filthy rags.”
9. Eph. 2:8-9. God rejects our good works.
Ps. 51:5, 58:3. We are sinners from birth.
11. Jn. 3:19. Sinners love their sin.

3. THE LAW
1. Ex. 20:1-20. The Ten Commandments must by obeyed perfectly.
2. Mt. 22:34-40. If we disobey the 1st & 2nd greatest commandments we have broken all of the Bible's laws.
3. Ja. 2:10-11. If we break one commandment we've broken them all.
4. Rom. 3:20; Gal. 3:24. The purpose of the Ten Commandments is to reveal sin in us and disclose our inability in keeping the law's demands. This creates an attitude of desperation in sinners to be delivered from the guilt and penalty of the law. Christ alone is the sinners hope.

4. THE VANITY OF LIFE

1. Heb. 9:27. Three things are common to all: Life, Death, & Judgment.
2. 2 Pet. 3:8; Ja. 4:13-14. Life Is short: The earth will be covered by all new people 110 years from now. Our life span is compared to one grain of sand taken from one planet among a thousand planets covered with sand. After you die no one remembers you (Eccl. 1:11, 2:16).
3. Eccl. 12:8,13,14, Life is vain: Solomon, the wisest man who lived, had everything this world has to offer yet he judged this life as totally vain and futile. Nevertheless, man pursues the vain things of this world against all reason, logic and intelligence (2 Tim. 3:7).
4. Lk. 12:16-21. Life is fragile: You may die tonight! Many labor to extend their life through exercise and vitamins but will add only a few years.
5. Eccl. 5:15; 1 Tim. 6:7; Lk. 9:24. Money and riches are vain.

5. HELL & JUDGEMENT

1. Rev. 20:11-15. The great white throne judgment.
2. Matt. 25:41-46. Everlasting fire and punishment for the unsaved.
3. Heb. 9:27. After this life comes judgment.
4. Lk. 16:19-31. Hell is a place of unceasing pain and torment with no escape.

6. THE NEW BIRTH

1. Jn. 3:1-7. Jesus teaches that the “new birth” is necessary for salvation.
2. Jn. 1:13. Salvation is not inherited from our parents, secured by our effort, nor decided by our will, but is a process by which we are “born of God.”
3. 2 Cor. 5:17. To be born again means that our old life is replaced by a new one.
4. Eph. 4:21-24; Col. 3:9-10. When a person becomes “born again” the Bible describes him as a “new person,” who brings forth new fruit.
5. Gal. 6:15. All that matters is that we become a “new creation.”

7. GRACE

1. Eph. 2:8,9. Grace is a free gift, it is unmerited favor.
2. Acts 15:11. We are saved by the grace of Christ.
3. Rom. 4:3-5. Salvation is by grace through faith and not by the deeds of the law.
4. Tit. 3:5-7; Rom.3:24. We are “Justified” freely by His grace.

8. REPENTANCE

I. Lk. 13:3. Unless we repent, we will all perish.
2. Acts 3:19. We must repent and be converted.
3. Matt. 4:17. Jesus said, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand,” however; the world ridicules the need of repentance.
4. Acts 26:20. We must repent and bring forth fruits worthy of repentance.
5. I Jn. 1:9. If we confess our sins He will forgive us our sins.
6. Prov. 28:13. He who covers his sins will not prosper, but whoever confess and forsakes them will have mercy.
7. Ps. 66:18. If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear.

9. FAITH
1. Heb. 11:6. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
2. Jn. 20:24-29. Blessed are they who do not see yet believe.
3. Jn. 3:16-19. Whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal fife.
4. Eph. 2:8. We are saved by grace “through faith.”
5. Gal. 3:23-26. We are saved through faith in Christ and not by keeping the law.
6. Rom. 3:28, 5:1. We are justified through faith in Christ.
7. Gal. 3:11; Rom. 1:17; Heb. 10:38; Hab. 2:4. “The just shall live by faith.”

10. SALVATION THROUGH CHRIST ALONE

1. Jn. 14:6. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.
2. 1 Jn. 5:11-13. He that has the “Son” has life, and he that does not have the Son of God does not have life.
3. Acts 4:10-12. Salvation is in none other than Jesus Christ.
4. Rev. 3:20. Jesus knocks on the door of our heart.
5. Rom. 10:13. Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
6. Jn. 3:36. He who does not believe on the Son of God has the wrath of God on him.

(Christ Bible Pulpit, Oakland, CA)

Now, compared to that, we have this gospel that Fitzlight brings us. Over the last couple of pages, he has sought to convince us of a works-gospel. I know he denies this, but the evidence is clear. He can claim that he believes only in grace, but his writings exposes that as not the entire truth. Salvation is through faith in Christ alone. Adding anything to that perverts the Gospel, and waters down the sacrifice that Christ made on the cross.

Furthermore, Fitzlight sees fit to pass judgment on people he knows nothing about. People that he has never met, spoken to or have the faintest idea what their relationship with God is. He accuses people here of lying when his own words are quoted back to him. He builds strawman arguments against Christianity, and then announces his moral superiority.

The rules of this board clearly prohibits attacking the salvation of others, and that is with good reason. We don't know what the personal relationship of people with God is. If we assume that we do, we are presumptuous, and we are limiting the ability of God's grace to cover all sin, and the extent of His grace, now and future.

Now, on to the posts.

Fitzlight wrote:One more time for those of you who seem to refuse to read what I have really posted and desire to try to claim that I have said something that I have not I will repent it one more time.

PLEASE READ THIS. I do not nor have I at anytime said that we must strive to keep God/Jesus' Holy Laws so as to be saved and all that claim I have or liars. I demand that any of you that are claiming that I have made such a claim please post where I have done so. Do not falsely accuse me show the proof for all to see.

You are a liar. These were your exact words:

Yes I do believe that all who do not desire and who do not strive to keep God's Holy Commandments will not be saved. Here are some scripture to make this very clear.

So again the answer to your question is yes. If anyone continues willfully to break God/Jesus' Holy Commandments they will not be saved.

We are to strive to keep God/Jesus' Holy Commandments does for salvation, but because we Love Him and desire to obey Him in all things.

Furthermore, you are distorting the gospel, and spreading a false gospel. Despite your statements that you believe one is saved by grace alone, you keep adding works through the obedience of the law to the requirements.

I said that we are to strive to obey God/Jesus' Holy Laws and I also said that we will fail in doing so, but that is why Jesus kept them for us perfectly so that when we fail we have forgiveness through Him that did keep them.

So if you fail to keep them, you are going to hell, in your own words. Striving or trying is not good enough, according to the list of Scriptures you provided. You mus either keep them, or you burn.

First If, as you claim, that God/Jesus' Holy Laws were done away with then why do you use them to convict others of sin?

We don't convict anyone of sin. God does. He alone has the right to judge and punish. We can pray for intercession.

By what scripture do you claim that there is sin without the law?

Nobody here is saying that. But in your warped understanding of God's work on the cross, you choose to make a big deal out of it. We all transgress the law, but the transgressions are not accounted to us. That is what grace means, it is undeserved favor. Go read Gal 3.

Now the law makes us aware that we are sinners and that we need to be saved and yes it points us to Jesus and what He did for us, but His death did not and does not make null and void the law.

Jesus's death takes away the punitive effect if you are a Christian. So while we will all still be judged, Jesus will intercede on behalf of His children and we will be spared the punishment of our weak sinfulness.

What law helps sinners? According to you and all christians there is no law.

Are you kidding? You are just throwing out strawmen based on what is obviously a warped understanding of the Gospel. The law can't do anything. It can't save, it can't convict, it can't condemn. Only God can do any of those things.

You are wrong. Do you truly believe that God would be so unjust as to command us to do something knowing that we would not have the ways and means to do so? You do believe in an unjust god don't you.

Yet you don't do it. Why not? Are you playing God for a fool?

If a person can not answer you without falsely accusing you what does that say of that person? Take notice at how many that have answered me first falsely accused me of saying something I have not and did not at anytime say. Why do they fell that they have to falsely accuse me? Is it so that may be they can discredit me falsely so as to discredit all else I have to say?

No, it's because you are a liar who won't admit to what he said. We have quoted your own words back to you, yet you want to claim that we are falsely accusing you? What was that again about liars?

I have stated that if you do not strive to keep His commandments then you cannot be saved. Does this sound like double talk? It isn't and here is why. I obey God in accepting the fact that Jesus suffered and died on the stake so that I might have forgiveness of my sins and thereby be saved. My salvation is of grace not of works, but just as I obey God in accepting this free gift of salvation I must also be willing to obey Him in all other things or do you suppose that aws long as I continue to obey Him in accepting His free gift that I am free to not obey Him in anything else?

And there is your whole false gospel in a paragraph. What is the difference between striving and doing? Striving is not good enough for others, according to you when it comes to the Sabbath, but it is good enough for you when you want to attack Christians. Here is the thing, you cannot obey the laws even if you tried, strive or any such nonsensical double speak. If you could why would you need a Savior?

But you also said earlier that "Do you truly believe that God would be so unjust as to command us to do something knowing that we would not have the ways and means to do so?". So you are the one trying to make a fool out of Christ and His sacrifice by saying that you actually can keep the Commandments, because if you can't then God is unjust.

How do I prove forth the fact that I have obeyed Him in accepting His free gift of forgiveness and salvation? I do so by obeying Him in all other things that He commands. How do I show that I love Him? Do I do so by refusing to obey Him in everything but the one that gets me the free gift? How is the world to know that I am of Him? Do they know simple because I say so? Does action have no place in that proof? Would the world believe me if I said to it, "I am of God because I accept and believe in Jesus," and yet I go about not obeying Him in anything elseand I simple live as all others of the world live? Ask the world if they believe you. You are judged by your actions not just what you say. You desire that God give you something for free

But you don't obey Him, do you?

My proof is that I try each day to obey Him by trying to keep His Holy Laws and yes I fail, but I try.

Trying does not work. If you sin, you sin. You break the law.

Now even though I fail I have Jesus' free gift of forgiveness to cover those times where I fail.

So Jesus is your backup plan? You try first, but when you can't do it, Jesus is the secondary plan. Exactly why your gospel is false, and an offense to God.

Look at what you do? Where is your proof? If I see you would I know that you love God? All that I see in here so far are people who love themselves and or willing to accept Jesus free gift of salvation as long as nothing else is required of them.

What do we do? We don't go around playing high and mighty with some false gospel. You know nothing about me, or the people here. But yes, I am humble enough to say that I know that I have accepted God's gift of grace, and that nothing else is required of me. Not a thing. Because if my salvation depended one bit on my corrupted and sinful self, I would not be saved. I am saved because of what Christ did, not what I do. Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, Nothing more.

I feel so sorry for you as you are so blinded and so unwilling to even seek out God's truth for yourselves.

You are perverting God's Word. I don't think you know much of the truth.

You love having others agree with you and you join in with them to attack me with lies. Did they not also do Jesus and the Apostles the same?

You are the one lying. We have showed you that, repeatedly, yet you won't admit it. And nice try to try and elevate yourself to the level of Jesus there. Why am I not surprised? You are the one with all the answers, you are the one who will save yourself but have Jesus as your backup plan.

You do not know that it is you that reject God/Jesus' Holy Laws that shall in the last days attack and cause God's people to suffer. It is you that shall have the mark of the beast as you do right now. Am I condemning you? No you are condemning yourselves. You hate me? So to did they hate Jesus and the Apostles.

This is just some incoherent blather. You have a completely perverted view of the Gospel, and you come here to make pronouncements on other people. Yet you are the one full of lies, double-talk and Scripture twisting. I don't hate you. But I think you are going to have to explain to God why you lead people astray with a false gospel.

You have not answered my questions and you have not because you can't. Oh I know that you will claim that you have.

This is too funny. If you don't like the answers you claim that you were not answered? Anyway the problem is not in the Q&A, it's in your whole presupposition and approach.

God I give these people unto Satan through Jesus so that hopfully by Your loving grace some of them might become unblinded,

You know nothing of God's grace. Your view is utterly perverted. How dare you speak that way about Christians? Who do you think you are?

Posted: **Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:36 pm**

August wrote:You know nothing of God's grace. Your view is utterly perverted. How dare you speak that way about Christians? Who do you think you are?

You're allowed to speak to others this way, however this person (as I) am only saying that God's only hand-written words are Truth.

If the law points at sin then to do otherwise is to sin.

We are all sinful and sin daily however this does not give us the freedom to willfully go against Truth.

That you (general "you") hold to Sunday worship is to promote the Pope as your Vicar. Ask any RC if this is true.
.
.

Posted: **Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:59 pm**

BavarianWheels wrote:
August wrote:You know nothing of God's grace. Your view is utterly perverted. How dare you speak that way about Christians? Who do you think you are?
You're allowed to speak to others this way, however this person (as I) am only saying that God's only hand-written words are Truth.

If the law points at sin then to do otherwise is to sin.

We are all sinful and sin daily however this does not give us the freedom to willfully go against Truth.

That you (general "you") hold to Sunday worship is to promote the Pope as your Vicar. Ask any RC if this is true.
.
.

I think "this person" said considerably more than that.

Posted: **Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:35 am**

Canuckster1127 wrote:I think "this person" said considerably more than that.

Possibly, however, at it's basis is God's Law. If there was a change to God's Law as He wrote it, we would have it. Where as God's Law was written on stone before, now it is written on our hearts. It is out of gratitude and submission to who He is we do those things in the Law, not for salvation purposes, but because it's what He asks. To do the opposite is to thumb your nose at God's will.

It may not be an issue today, Sabbath vs. Sunday worship. So at this moment there is no consequence to worshipping on Sunday. But there will come a day when you're tested. (Daniel 3) When that day comes...the day a line is drawn, the day a civil law comes through our government that Sunday is the only day to worship on...what will you choose? THAT is the day the issue becomes a point of salvation.

Isaiah 56:1-2 - "Blessed is the MAN..." Last I knew, Jew was not spelled M-A-N.

Mark 2:27,28
.
.

Posted: **Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:53 am**

BavarianWheels wrote:
Canuckster1127 wrote:I think "this person" said considerably more than that.
Possibly, however, at it's basis is God's Law. If there was a change to God's Law as He wrote it, we would have it. Where as God's Law was written on stone before, now it is written on our hearts. It is out of gratitude and submission to who He is we do those things in the Law, not for salvation purposes, but because it's what He asks. To do the opposite is to thumb your nose at God's will.

It may not be an issue today, Sabbath vs. Sunday worship. So at this moment there is no consequence to worshipping on Sunday. But there will come a day when you're tested. (Daniel 3) When that day comes...the day a line is drawn, the day a civil law comes through our government that Sunday is the only day to worship on...what will you choose? THAT is the day the issue becomes a point of salvation.

Isaiah 56:1-2 - "Blessed is the MAN..." Last I knew, Jew was not spelled M-A-N.

Mark 2:27,28
.
.

Bav,

We've had this discussion before and as I believe I have said in the past, I have no objection to your belief in this regard while disagreeing with elements of it. I respect that you believe the keeping of those elements of the law is a response to God and not the basis of yours or anyone else's salvation.

I believe the new covenant supercedes the elements you select of the law to honor, and I'm fine with agreeing to disagree and to respect your decision and the motives that you indicate you have in so doing.

There's a huge gulf between that and what took place earlier in this thread where the proposition was put forward that not following those or similar practices is indicative of an unregenerate heart and therefore all who fail to practice as that individual advocates are condemned to hell.

I sincerely hope that your agreement with some elements of what was said does not extend to your acceptance of that proposition. If it does and that's what you're seeking to say then I've misunderstood you in the past.

Posted: **Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:14 am**

BAv.
Again, this is just blatantly cherry picking verses to try and prop up your position.

Verses6-7 say, “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord, To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord, To be His servants, every one who bkeeps from profaning the sabbath And holds fast My covenant;
Even athose I will bring to My holy mountain And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;"{

Do you understand contextually what Isaiah is writing about?

When that day comes...the day a line is drawn, the day a civil law comes through our government that Sunday is the only day to worship on...what will you choose? THAT is the day the issue becomes a point of salvation.

So on that day, are you going to abandon this foolish Saturn's day keeping, and get back to the Jewish calendar??

Posted: **Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:03 pm**

Canuckster1127 wrote:Bav,

We've had this discussion before and as I believe I have said in the past, I have no objection to your belief in this regard while disagreeing with elements of it. I respect that you believe the keeping of those elements of the law is a response to God and not the basis of yours or anyone else's salvation.

I believe the new covenant supercedes the elements you select of the law to honor, and I'm fine with agreeing to disagree and to respect your decision and the motives that you indicate you have in so doing.

What difference is there in the old vs. new covenant? Was there anyone prior to the "new" saved in a manner any different from what is salvation today? There is no "new" as for salvation. The "new" is not different from the "old".The "new" is the understanding of the old. The opening to the masses (it always was open to the masses). It is the understanding that the original "owners" of the covenant didn't put it into its proper practice and ADDED to it what God had not. The old was written on stone, the new is written on the heart. Nothing has changed in what was written, but simply where it is now written. The fact of the matter is that there is no shred of evidence that God or Jesus changed one word of His Law. IF there was a change, then it was a change by men thinking to "celebrate the resurrection". No where does a word from God or Christ do this.

NOTE:God's Law points to sin. Anyone found in defiance of God's Law is sinful and the Law condemns him. If only the Law exists to judge, then the Law declares righteous ONLY those that are found in harmony with the Law. The Law can only declare a righteous person righteous because it is in perfect keeping of the Law that a righteous person exists. We know, however that there is NONE righteous. So the Law is powerless to make anyone righteous that has ever sinned, even one iota. Romans 3:21 - So then a righteousness APART FROM LAW has been made known to which the Law and the Prophets testify. It's been known since the "old" covenant. A few verses down, Romans 3:28, - "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." This is simply stating there are two ways to be justified. One is through the law and the other is by faith in Jesus Christ. If the law also justifies and declares righteous (save for sinners) then God's Law is HOLY, JUST, and TRUE. The law is weakend by sin, but the requirements of the law are righteous. See Romans 8:3,4. As sinners, we are hostile to God and we do not submit to God's law and so cannot please God. Romans 8:6-8 We have an obligation, but it is not to the sinful nature...that which cannot please God, that which does not submit to God's law. Our obligation is to live according to the Spirit.

"Do we then nullify the Law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law." Romans 3:31

But by the tradition of men, "we" only uphold 9 of 10. Do you uphold, 'do not murder', 'do not covet', 'do not take the name of God in vain', 'honor father and mother ...?? What is so distasteful about the Sabbath that you cast it aside as irrelevant to salvation if God seems to think it points to righteousness?

Canuckster1127 wrote:There's a huge gulf between that and what took place earlier in this thread where the proposition was put forward that not following those or similar practices is indicative of an unregenerate heart and therefore all who fail to practice as that individual advocates are condemned to hell.

As you've noted, my view on this differs slightly. I would say this: If a person worships on Sunday, KNOWING IT IS NOT WHAT GOD WANTS, then this persons salvation is in question.

Canuckster1127 wrote:I sincerely hope that your agreement with some elements of what was said does not extend to your acceptance of that proposition. If it does and that's what you're seeking to say then I've misunderstood you in the past.

It doesn't. Yet it does to some degree. See note above.

Posted: **Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:17 pm**

Fitzlight,

Looking through your post and you seen to have forgotten 1 John 3:23. You mentioned verses 22 and 24 but verse 23 tells us what the commandments we are to keep are...

1 John 3:22, 23, 24
-
-
-

Posted: **Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:34 pm**

B. W. wrote:Fitzlight,

Looking through your post and you seen to have forgotten 1 John 3:23. You mentioned verses 22 and 24 but verse 23 tells us what the commandments we are to keep are...

1 John 3:22, 23, 24

Don't forget: John 14:15, John 14:21, 23 and where God says, "I the LORD do not change." Mal. 3:6

I still find an absense of proof of change from Sabbath to Sunday worship.
.
.

Posted: **Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:11 pm**

BavarianWheels wrote:
B. W. wrote:Fitzlight,

Looking through your post and you seen to have forgotten 1 John 3:23. You mentioned verses 22 and 24 but verse 23 tells us what the commandments we are to keep are...1 John 3:22, 23, 24
Don't forget: John 14:15, John 14:21, 23 and where God says, "I the LORD do not change." Mal. 3:6

I still find an absense of proof of change from Sabbath to Sunday worship..

Fritzlight nd Bav,

You are missing the point — Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and as Lord of the Sabbath in the Old Testament He appointed more than one Sabbath to observe. Which indeed these pointed to Himself.

Lev 23:39, “Also on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the fruit of the land, you shall keep the feast of the LORD for seven days; on the first day there shall be a sabbath-rest, and on the eighth day a sabbath-rest.” NKJV

1 Corinthians 15:20, 21, 22, 23, “But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ…” ESV

What reason did Jesus go about picking grain on the Sabbath? What does this symbolize?

Mat 12:1-2, “At that time Jesus went through the grain fields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, "Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath." ESV

The Pharisees plotted to kill Jesus for Breaking the Sabbath law — not keeping it as they thought it should be kept. Pretty much what many accuse us of doing. Likewise, they do not see the Lord of the Sabbath either.

Mat 12:3-5 He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him: 4 how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless?”

Jesus is our first fruit — we honor a Sabbath rest and we do keep it Holy. How you may ask since it is not Saturday? We who minister dispense the bread of life and feed our sheep because, like the disciples once were that long ago Sabbath day, they were hungry.

We feed the flock because we love them, tend to them, and love the Lord and we honor the Sabbath that best reflects Him as He himself said to do in Lev 23:39. The Lord of the Sabbath makes Sabbath a Sabbath. Was man/woman made for the Sabbath or was the Sabbath made for men and women because we need rest and spiritual food so we can move from faith to faith.

How can you condemn us when we do in fact honor a seventh day rest? Do you not also honor a seventh day of rest? Do not be like a Pharisee seeking only to condemn and find fault. We are justified by Grace through faith, not works. We do honor a seventh day and you do so yourself. So will you be one dispensing the grain, the bread of life, so that many find true rest for one's souls? Or be a fault finding Pharsisee?

Mat 12:6-8, “I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. 7 And if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath." 9 He went on from there and entered their synagogue.”

Again, Jesus triumphs the Law by an act of love and mercy that gave rest from the affliction of a withered hand. The Lord of the Sabbath is Lord. But the Pharisees seek only to accuse.

Mat 12:10-12, “And a man was there with a withered hand. And they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"--so that they might accuse him. 11 He said to them, "Which one of you who has a sheep, if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

Jesus, the firstfruits of our salvation, raised on the first day of the week representing the harvest and the two Sabbaths…

Lev 23:39, “Also on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the fruit of the land, you shall keep the feast of the LORD for seven days; on the first day there shall be a sabbath-rest, and on the eighth day a sabbath-rest.” NKJV

If you subtract 7 form the 7th day — what day is left? The first day before God created was when the Holy Spirit brooded, resting, above the waters! Think on this a bit more and how it fits into Lev 23:29. I think you'll get it

-
-
-

Evidence for God from Science

sabbath keeping

Re: sabbath keeping

Re: sabbath keeping

Re: sabbath keeping

Re: sabbath keeping

Re: sabbath keeping

Re: sabbath keeping

Re: sabbath keeping

Re: sabbath keeping

Re: sabbath keeping

Re: sabbath keeping

Re: sabbath keeping

Re: sabbath keeping

Re: sabbath keeping

Re: sabbath keeping

Re: sabbath keeping