Evidence for God from Science

Bav wrote:

Life does begin at conception. I wont argue that as that is my belief also. The question is, when is that "life" a human that in aborting is murder?

Bav, You say that you believe life begins at conception. Then you say that you're not sure when that life is a human. If you're not sure when it's a human, could you please tell me what you believe it is between conception, (when you said life begins), and when ever it "becomes" human?

RickD wrote:

It's not hard. The problem is you're assuming every mother is a Christian, God-fearing woman whose morals equal yours. You're assuming we live in a Christian society. You're assuming your (our) Christian morals on society when society (in some places) thinks the woman's right is above the unborn. I simply agree it so, in this society.

What's so hard to understand about that?

1) I'm not assuming every mother is a Christian. I'm just stating that a fetus is human, and that killing that fetus is just as wrong as murdering a person who has been born. 2) I absolutely DON'T believe we live in a Christian society. see this thread I started:http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 30&t=34142 3) I'm not assuming my, or anyone elses morals on society. I'm just trying to make the point that if the fetus is human, then it should be protected under our country's laws just like any "born" person. 4)The American "society" in the 1800's(especially in the south) thought it was legal to own a human being. The slaves "rights" to live free were deemed less important than the slave owners rights to selfishly own that slave. Just like in today's society the baby's right to live is deemed less important than the mother's right to selfishly kill that baby. Slavery was wrong. It was eventually not legal anymore. Abortion is wrong. It's still legal. Don't you see the problem?

Have I said differently...that a fetus is not human? Have I not already acknowledged abortion is never "ok"? The fact of the matter is that it isn't just like murdering a person who's been born otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But you *are assuming your morals. You're saying it's wrong and invoking God as your basis (or others are). I've already agreed with your reasoning, just not the application on this society. Just like it is within everyone's "right" to murder whomever they feel at any point isn't without consequences, so the taking of the life of a fetus isn't without consequences, just not the same consequences you seem to think should go along.

I think abortion is such a personal "crime" that the mental punishment, and whatever else is deemed by God, is enough. If it were that God wants abortion treated like "regular" murderers in society, then it will happen.
.
.

I think abortion is such a personal "crime" that the mental punishment, and whatever else is deemed by God, is enough. If it were that God wants abortion treated like "regular" murderers in society, then it will happen.

Nothing personal, but that just sounds like a cop out. If you know abortion is wrong, and then just wink at it, guess what?
Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins. James 4:17
The law of the land is not your ultimate judge. Did you not say,

'Have I not already acknowledged abortion is never "ok"?'

You critique for envoking Christian morals. (Which I disagree with, as we can argue this point without them) But what about you? Are you not a Christian?

The fact of the matter is that it isn't just like murdering a person who's been born otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Have you watched the video?

The reality wheels, is that there are abortion procedures in place that are JUST like murdering a person outside the womb. In fact, worse. You give the other side too much credit. As if people will just do the right thing if they know the truth. We are dealing with spiritual blindness, and spiritual warfare. And yet you just have this ho hum attitude about the millions of unborn that are slaughtered. At least that is how it appears.
I guess we could legalize all murder by allowing doctors to perform them in clinical environments. Get a lab coat and a medical license, and it's ok. I mean isn't that what you are saying? The guise of a medical procedure gives it credibility? I doubt you would feel any better if you were murdered in the sterile environment of a medical facility, or out in the streets.

If you have a delima about the earliest stages, I understand. It's hard to imagine a recently fertilized egg as human, for obvious reasons. And for the discussion, I'd be willing to table that for the time. The reality is that abortions are performed after this time, after recognizable human quality is there. I am against abortion at any stage, because I want to err on the side of life.

jlay wrote:

I think abortion is such a personal "crime" that the mental punishment, and whatever else is deemed by God, is enough. If it were that God wants abortion treated like "regular" murderers in society, then it will happen.

Nothing personal, but that just sounds like a cop out. If you know abortion is wrong, and then just wink at it, guess what?
Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins. James 4:17
The law of the land is not your ultimate judge.

What do you want to do, tie up every woman that becomes pregnant so that they cannot by chance abort their child? You act as though you or I can stop every single abortion by a law making abortion illegal. Fine. I'm with you then. I'm for making abortion illegal. Now, doesn't THAT feel better!!?

jlay wrote:Did you not say,

'Have I not already acknowledged abortion is never "ok"?'

You critique for envoking Christian morals. (Which I disagree with, as we can argue this point without them) But what about you? Are you not a Christian?

Certainly I am. But as I've mentioned many times before, my Christian beliefs and morals I purposely separate from my civil beliefs. While I know and acknowlege abortion is never "ok" morally, it is still within every human beings right to do as they please. God lets us all act as we please. Isn't it you all that say there is no law with God? All is now permissible since we are under grace and faith? But it is so ironic how your freedom of the law makes you (a general you) more of a legalist and not free at all. Is there freedom to murder? Yes...otherwise there wouldn't be guns for the taking in society...Cain wouldn't have been allowed to murder Abel. If murder wasn't allowed, how are all these murders taking place? The question then is not whether it is legal or illegal (make it illegal...I don't care about that aspect of the situation) the question is the rights of which overrides the rights of the other. In society, at this point, the woman's rights has the upper hand. Lobby against this all you want, until society on the whole agrees with you, this will not change. And even when it does change, abortion will still go strong. There are always consequences to every action, moral or immoral, Godly or unGodly.

So what is my point? We are wasting time and effort in thinking law will stop it. The only thing that will do is make you (general you's) feel better at night. While I believe it is murder, morally and in God's eyes, it is not law that will stop it, but education in Christian family values and ultimately a relationship with Christ that will do the most...and even then it wont stop this side of paradise.

jlay wrote:

The fact of the matter is that it isn't just like murdering a person who's been born otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Have you watched the video?

No...what for? You don't seem to get what I mean when I say the above. What I mean is IF society thought it was JUST like murder as we define it through civil law, then abortion would be already illegal and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

jlay wrote:The reality wheels, is that there are abortion procedures in place that are JUST like murdering a person outside the womb. In fact, worse. You give the other side too much credit.

When have I said anything that says it's not "murder"? How is it worse? THAT I disagree with. Murder is murder, just like sin is sin. How is one innocent death by murder any worse than another innocent death? But that's not our topic here...(nor is it the topic of this thread which still hasn't been split off)

jlay wrote:I guess we could legalize murder by allowing doctors to perform them in clinical environments. Get a lab coat and a medical license, and it's ok. I mean isn't that what you are saying? The guise of a medical procedure gives it credibility? I doubt you would feel any better if you were murdered in the sterile environment of a medical facility, or out in the streets.

Where are you getting this from? This is what you're hoping I mean, but it's not. You seem to be reading what you want to see me writing, but you're not paying attn. If you're going to insert your own ideas as to what I'm thinking, maybe I should give you the pwd for my username and you can write the above as my thoughts. "Get a lab coat and a med license, and it's ok." ... Really? This is what you're reading?

If I was murdered in a sterile environment, by doctors, I suppose I might not feel much.
.
.

What do you want to do, tie up every woman that becomes pregnant so that they cannot by chance abort their child? You act as though you or I can stop every single abortion by a law making abortion illegal. Fine. I'm with you then. I'm for making abortion illegal. Now, doesn't THAT feel better!!?

Wheels, if you are going to ask unreasonable questions, and make unreasonable statements, do not expect to be treated with reason. I don not act that way. It is one step. But a step that needs to be taken.
We CAN stop abortion by demand. We can stop the farce of covering up murder by disquising it as a medical procedure. By outlawing something that should be illegal, we can begin to tear down the lies that undergird this atrocity, and better equip people to know the consequences of unwanted pregnancy. If you think abortion is murder, then why, why would you have such issue with those who want to work within the legal process to end it as a sanctioned medical procedure?

Certainly I am. But as I've mentioned many times before, my Christian beliefs and morals I purposely separate from my civil beliefs. While I know and acknowlege abortion is never "ok" morally, it is still within every human beings right to do as they please.

That statement is dissapointing in more ways than I can communicate in this thread. Seperate your Christian beliefs and morals? All I can say, is that is sad. I'm not talking about forcing your religion on people. I'm talking about right and wrong. Justice even.
Is that the way you handle all civil issues? Should we not have laws against murder, burglarly? They are forbidden in the bible are they not? Does one have to force religion on another to support laws against murder and theft? I think not. It is not within every human beings right to do as they please. Where do you get that notion? Just go and do as you please for a while and see how long before its put to a stop.

We are wasting time and effort in thinking law will stop it.

Laws will stop many abortions, whether you admit it or not. And, as I said above, it will stop the state from sanctioning murder. If you can't see that, you are being willfully ignorant. Laws will prevent it. there is no question about that. All of it? No. Some will break the law. But people's willingness to break the law is not a reason to have no law in the first place. What kind of logic is that?

There are always consequences to every action, moral or immoral, Godly or unGodly.

Absolutely. There are consequences to apathy and indifference. Have you considered that?

but education in Christian family values and ultimately a relationship with Christ that will do the most...and even then it wont stop this side of paradise.

That is absolutely true. I don't see how this defends your position on the legal end. Not one bit. The fact that sin and wrong will happen is no reason to be indifferent toward them, or to do nothing. Or, treat your faith as some sort of hat you take on and off when dealing with civil issues.

No...what for? You don't seem to get what I mean when I say the above. What I mean is IF society thought it was JUST like murder as we define it through civil law, then abortion would be already illegal and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

You should watch it. Many in our society think abortion is wrong. In fact states have passed majority laws to prevent it, only to be over ruled by liberal courts. Most people thought, and many still think, that abortion is wrong. Roe v. Wade did not represent what most people thought of at the time. But if every person other than myself thought abortion was OK, I would still lobby to outlaw it, because of what I believe it to be. An atrocity.

When have I said anything that says it's not "murder"? How is it worse? THAT I disagree with. Murder is murder, just like sin is sin. How is one innocent death by murder any worse than another innocent death? But that's not our topic here...(nor is it the topic of this thread which still hasn't been split off)

You said,

The fact of the matter is that it isn't just like murdering a person who's been born otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Watch the video and see what it is like. The reason I said it is worse, is three fold. The unborn are completely innocent, and defenseless. It is utterly violent.(Watch the video) And, the fact that it is glossed over by treating it like a medical procedure. So, yes, in some cases it is worse.

This is what you're reading?

I'm reading that you are indifferent to something that out of one side of your mouth you claim to be murder. Out of the other you say, by your own admission, that you take off your Christian hat in dealing with civil issues such as abortion, and let the cards fall where they may. I'm reading that you don't feel any conviction to do anything, because society doesn't view the murder of the unborn the same way, so you choose to flow with the culture.

One of the reasons Hitler was able to perpetrate the atrocities of the holocaust was the apathy and indifference of the people. I can't help but see this same time of attitude pervading your thoughts. I find it very sad.

.
.
I can't help but notice you skipped WAY over God allowing Cain to murder his brother...yet I'm being apathetic because I don't think a law is quite as important? Didn't I already say I'm on your side, I'm for a law against abortion. Now. What now?

What is unreasonable. What? That I feel time wasted on saying something obviously not ok is illegal? What is unreasonable is that you're insisting on making me out to be apathetic and indifferent when I've made it clear that abortion is wrong. However, a woman has a right to not want a pregnancy. I believe there is a certain point (where specifically, I'm not sure) at which that decision can be made within civil and societal law. As for God and His law, it is clearly not ok. But we are not in a theocracy so I must decide what is more important. Law or action. Action works better than law is my opinion.

If you think that is being unreasonable and akin to Hitler, so be it. We disagree. End of story.
.
.

Bav wrote:

Fine. I'm with you then. I'm for making abortion illegal. Now, doesn't THAT feel better!!?

YES YES YES!!!!!

Cain? Skipped? What?
Wheels, these comments just seem to be out of left field. Are you saying, God allowed Cain to murder his brother, so we are to allow abortion? Or, God advocates murder and abortion? Or, was this just something to throw out there to derail the points made? I'm really perplexed at where you are going here. Help me out.

But we are not in a theocracy so I must decide what is more important.

Who said we were? Not me. You keep reaching for this argument, but I've made it clear, this is not forcing religion on someone. Not anymore than having and enforcing laws against theft and murder.

yet I'm being apathetic because I don't think a law is quite as important? Didn't I already say I'm on your side, I'm for a law against abortion. Now. What now?

Pardon me for saying so, but it seems as if you are ammending your position as we go along. Maybe I'm wrong, and if I am, I apologize. But in several discussions over the years, I've never understood your postions as, "I'm for a law against abortion, what now?" Nothing personal, but I don't get the impression that you are sincere about the, "what now?" If you are, there are a few of us here who'd be happy to fill you in.
Now, I do understand you are for advancing the cause against aboriton through other means. And I would be remiss if I did not note that this is an admirable position and one I share. I've worked with children for years, and I've always put an emphasis on teaching children the importance of making God honoring choices in their lives. We have a handful of inner city teen age boys that come to my men's bible study. And I assure you we've discussed the importance of walking worthy of their calling when it comes to their sexuality. We would be foolish to think that passing laws will solve the problem. As I've said earlier in the thread, it is a heart problem.

jlay wrote:Cain? Skipped? What?
Wheels, these comments just seem to be out of left field. Are you saying, God allowed Cain to murder his brother, so we are to allow abortion? Or, God advocates murder and abortion? Or, was this just something to throw out there to derail the points made? I'm really perplexed at where you are going here. Help me out.

Simply that God allows us to act as we see fit. Consequences? God cannot allow sin to go unpunished. It is already morally wrong to murder, why do we find such a high need to reinforce the fact. My deal is that it's silly to make a law when making the law creates more turmoil and confusion. Ok, so let's say a law exists making abortion illegal. How does one enforce it now? All you've done is force the action underground and uglied an already tragic situation and made it worse. How does the law then enforce abortion? How does the law determine between an "act of God" and murder? How does the law then treat victims of unwanted pregnancy due to rape, or simply a mistake within marriage? Is the consequence the same across the board? What determines the penalty for the abortion? What if the aborted were twins? Is it now double murder? How do we know, if the abortion is a morning after pill, that that pregnancy wasn't going to result in multiple births? Is the murder of half a human considered murder? What about if the child will be certainly born with degenerative disease or deformity? What is the penalty for "mercy" abortions? Is there such a thing?

jlay wrote:

But we are not in a theocracy so I must decide what is more important.

Who said we were? Not me. You keep reaching for this argument, but I've made it clear, this is not forcing religion on someone. Not anymore than having and enforcing laws against theft and murder.

...right, but there exists law against theft and murder already. You don't see the point? Ok. Move on.

jlay wrote:

yet I'm being apathetic because I don't think a law is quite as important? Didn't I already say I'm on your side, I'm for a law against abortion. Now. What now?

Pardon me for saying so, but it seems as if you are ammending your position as we go along. Maybe I'm wrong, and if I am, I apologize. But in several discussions over the years, I've never understood your postions as, "I'm for a law against abortion, what now?" Nothing personal, but I don't get the impression that you are sincere about the, "what now?" If you are, there are a few of us here who'd be happy to fill you in.
Now, I do understand you are for advancing the cause against aboriton through other means. And I would be remiss if I did not note that this is an admirable position and one I share. I've worked with children for years, and I've always put an emphasis on teaching children the importance of making God honoring choices in their lives. We have a handful of inner city teen age boys that come to my men's bible study. And I assure you we've discussed the importance of walking worthy of their calling when it comes to their sexuality. We would be foolish to think that passing laws will solve the problem. As I've said earlier in the thread, it is a heart problem.

My position hasn't ammended at all. I still believe in pro choice, but really dont care one way or the other if a law exists against abortion. Certainly I'm sincere. What now? How do you implement and enforce such a law?? This law will create, as I mentioned above, more confusion and drain on society than it is worth. How do you keep women from getting an abortion if it is illegal. I know how you keep murder by guns, weapons...you make them illegal to buy and own. What are you going to do to help the law stick and work? Are you going to make sex an all or nothing deal? Will sex during ovulation be next on the agenda as the body naturally is expecting sperm to unite with the egg, but wait...a condom is causing a life that otherwise could be, to not be.

Silly? Rediculous? Hitlerish? Unreasonable? Ok...so tell me. What now?
.
.

BavarianWheels wrote:

RickD wrote:

I find it amusing you think I would have difficulty understanding that humans reproduce humans.

Bav, The reason I said that is because you said this:

My line for pro choice...is very early. I'd say at a stab, it's within the first 8 weeks. After that, I lean pro life.

My problem is that you seem to think that at some point after conception, you think that the fetus is not actually a human being from your saying this:

As I've mentioned, I don't hold to pro choice after a certain amount of development. So this argument is almost moot, but still good in the sense that "life" must begin at some point and just cells prior to that.

However, I think in this society, the mother should have rights above the rights of the unborn.

Again, you are saying that the mother's "rights" should come before the baby's "rights" to live? I just want to be clear on that. You, as a Christian believe that a mother's rights to live her life free from a distraction of having a baby, should override the rights of God, who formed that baby? God created the life. Only He should have the power to take the life. What is so hard to understand about this?

It's not hard. The problem is you're assuming every mother is a Christian, God-fearing woman whose morals equal yours. You're assuming we live in a Christian society. You're assuming your (our) Christian morals on society when society (in some places) thinks the woman's right is above the unborn. I simply agree it so, in this society.

What's so hard to understand about that?

Bav,

Do you think that we should push for laws against murder?

Also, I know you are acquainted with the moral argument for God.

If morality really does exist above humanity and what any human says, and laws are based on this morality, then any morality society takes up is foundationally Christian/Theistic. So why stop short in one area where it is Biblically clear all humans are equal and we are not to kill one another because we are all made in God's image (woman, man, child, infant, unborn)?

On the other hand, if morality is evolved and/or constructed, and the highest standard of morality is a society-says relativism, then your statements would have more force. That is, we should not push our Christian/Theistic morals and try to change laws based on them because they are just our morals rather than everyone's.

Which model of morality do you subscribe to Bav?

why do we find such a high need to reinforce the fact.

because there are some people who don't believe that an unborn child is human.

My deal is that it's silly to make a law when making the law creates more turmoil and confusion.

you can call it silly if you want. But, if it saves any lives, then it's worth it.

How does one enforce it now?

Prosecute any doctor who kills babies.

or simply a mistake within marriage?

Did you just call a child a mistake?

Is the murder of half a human considered murder?

Huh?

What about if the child will be certainly born with degenerative disease or deformity? What is the penalty for "mercy" abortions? Is there such a thing?

If someone murders a quadriplegic in a wheelchair, is that ok because he has a deformity?

Kurieuo wrote:Do you think that we should push for laws against murder?

There is already law against murder. Why would you want to push something that already exists?

Kurieuo wrote:Also, I know you are acquainted with the moral argument for God.

If morality really does exist above humanity and what any human says, and laws are based on this morality, then any morality society takes up is foundationally Christian/Theistic. So why stop short in one area where it is Biblically clear all humans are equal and we are not to kill one another because we are all made in God's image (woman, man, child, infant, unborn)?

On the other hand, if morality is evolved and/or constructed, and the highest standard of morality is a society-says relativism, then your statements would have more force. That is, we should not push our Christian/Theistic morals and try to change laws based on them because they are just our morals rather than everyone's.

Which model of morality do you subscribe to Bav?

Which laws are you refering to, God's or man's? Which society are you referring to, a secular or a theocracy? If you are referring to what my own morals are based on, then those are based on a belief in a Creator God.

So, how are we basing law in this country and by whose morals? If it be based on Godly morals, then abortion can be deemed illegal solely on morality reasons. If it is based on what society deems moral, then the legality of abortion is up in the air.

If it be that abortion is legalized into the 9th month, so be it. My position stays the same in that to fight to make it illegal is meaningless as the real fight is prevention and not legal vs illegal. The abortions are tragic either way, early or later. It makes no difference. Murder is murder, sin is sin. Abortion by the morning after pill and abortion in the 9th month is by definition murder of a human. Right? If society wins this fight legalizing abortion, you've wasted your time in rallying to make it illegal. Your efforts are better served in prevention and at the source. On top of that, if society does make abortion illegal, the fight is still at the same place...the source. Whether it be legal or illegal, the act will still continue and quite possibly at almost the same rate! So where is the real fight for life?

So how do you enforce this? What is the plan? Is the sentence for murder of human cells in the first week of pregnance the same as taking a gun and shooting an adult or a 10 yr old child?
.
.

RickD wrote:

why do we find such a high need to reinforce the fact.

because there are some people who don't believe that an unborn child is human.

My deal is that it's silly to make a law when making the law creates more turmoil and confusion.

you can call it silly if you want. But, if it saves any lives, then it's worth it.

How does one enforce it now?

Prosecute any doctor who kills babies.

or simply a mistake within marriage?

Did you just call a child a mistake?

Is the murder of half a human considered murder?

Huh?

What about if the child will be certainly born with degenerative disease or deformity? What is the penalty for "mercy" abortions? Is there such a thing?

If someone murders a quadriplegic in a wheelchair, is that ok because he has a deformity?

What does Proverbs 6:16-17, "These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: 17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood..."

Genesis 9:6, "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man."

What of Jeremiah 7:6, "if you do not oppress the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, or walk after other gods to your hurt..."

Jeremiah 22:2," 'Hear the word of the LORD, O king of Judah, you who sit on the throne of David, you and your servants and your people who enter these gates! 3 Thus says the LORD: "Execute judgment and righteousness, and deliver the plundered out of the hand of the oppressor. Do no wrong and do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, or the widow, nor shed innocent blood in this place."

No matter how one attempts to justify choice of abortion, the bible tells us plainly to defend the weak, not to shed innocent blood, deliver those plundered out of the hannd of the oppressors. There are more verses than these to support this. Therefore, for those inclined to to side with abortion choice are in clear violation of God's own word and commands. Those that oppose abortion choice are obeying the commands of God to defend the helpless and plead thier case...

So I have to ask, wich side will each reader rather be on?
-
-
-

RickD wrote:

why do we find such a high need to reinforce the fact.

because there are some people who don't believe that an unborn child is human.

And? There are many that don't believe in God. Shall we make a law stating it is illegal to not believe in God?

RickD wrote:

My deal is that it's silly to make a law when making the law creates more turmoil and confusion.

you can call it silly if you want. But, if it saves any lives, then it's worth it.

It is. I can't argue that point. However, I don't think it is the main fight.

RickD wrote:

How does one enforce it now?

Prosecute any doctor who kills babies.

To what extent? And the mother? What if someone drove her to the clinic or underground killing factory?

RickD wrote:

or simply a mistake within marriage?

Did you just call a child a mistake?

Is it not a mistake when a child is unplanned and not necessarily wanted? I mean if a married couple has unprotected sex and without wanting to get pregnant, the woman ends up pregnant...isn't the normal reaction, "oops". ??

RickD wrote:

Is the murder of half a human considered murder?

Huh?

I had a thought here...I'll think of it.

RickD wrote:

What about if the child will be certainly born with degenerative disease or deformity? What is the penalty for "mercy" abortions? Is there such a thing?

If someone murders a quadriplegic in a wheelchair, is that ok because he has a deformity?

Murder of a human in a wheelchair assumes that human is already born.
.
.

BavarianWheels wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Do you think that we should push for laws against murder?

There is already law against murder. Why would you want to push something that already exists?

You didn't answer my question.

Bav wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Also, I know you are acquainted with the moral argument for God.

If morality really does exist above humanity and what any human says, and laws are based on this morality, then any morality society takes up is foundationally Christian/Theistic. So why stop short in one area where it is Biblically clear all humans are equal and we are not to kill one another because we are all made in God's image (woman, man, child, infant, unborn)?

On the other hand, if morality is evolved and/or constructed, and the highest standard of morality is a society-says relativism, then your statements would have more force. That is, we should not push our Christian/Theistic morals and try to change laws based on them because they are just our morals rather than everyone's.

Which model of morality do you subscribe to Bav?

Which laws are you refering to, God's or man's? Which society are you referring to, a secular or a theocracy? If you are referring to what my own morals are based on, then those are based on a belief in a Creator God.

Perhaps I expected too much information to be understood re: moral argument for God's existence.

The moral argument is essentially built upon the fact that all people recognise that some some things are right, and some things are wrong. When we complain about being treated unfairly, or condemn those who do wrong as should have "knowing better", we appeal to a higher law built upon moral values we believe everyone should be aware to.

Without God, this "higher law" is only a mirage and morality is just a matter of personal taste relative to a person or group of people. Yet, because no one except a psychopath can live without a conscience, there thus appears to be a Moral Law that transcends humanity. This Moral Law, Christians believe (or ought to believe), comes from God.

Your saying morals are based on belief in a Creator God is in fact backwards. Your belief in right and wrong are ultimately derived from and therefore founded upon God's righteous nature like everyone else. Only, our vision can get clouded and the values God initially set in our heart can become more and more clouded particularly through the external influences of others.

However, given your moral sense that every human life is created equal and based on your acceptance of Scripture which says we humans should not murder each other for we are created in God's image, I should be able to simply appeal to this. However, you seem to then throw away such standards to embrace a you-say/they-say relativistic morality to try and let yourself off the hook. This is either two-faced or confused. Either you believe in God and everyone is bound to a greater moral law, or God does not exist and to each person their own morality.

Just look at your following question to me.

Bav wrote:So, how are we basing law in this country and by whose morals? If it be based on Godly morals, then abortion can be deemed illegal solely on morality reasons. If it is based on what society deems moral, then the legality of abortion is up in the air.

In this country, do you mean Australia?

Real "good", that is, some moral actions being really right making others really wrong, can only be explained by God's existence. Do you believe in a morality that transcends humanity Bav? If so, then you should be pushing what you know to be true and trying to be a light to the world and correct the vision of others. To wash your hands of the matter is rather Pilate-ish.

Bav wrote:If it be that abortion is legalized into the 9th month, so be it. My position stays the same in that to fight to make it illegal is meaningless as the real fight is prevention and not legal vs illegal. The abortions are tragic either way, early or later. It makes no difference. Murder is murder, sin is sin. Abortion by the morning after pill and abortion in the 9th month is by definition murder of a human. Right? If society wins this fight legalizing abortion, you've wasted your time in rallying to make it illegal. Your efforts are better served in prevention and at the source. On top of that, if society does make abortion illegal, the fight is still at the same place...the source. Whether it be legal or illegal, the act will still continue and quite possibly at almost the same rate! So where is the real fight for life?

So how do you enforce this? What is the plan? Is the sentence for murder of human cells in the first week of pregnance the same as taking a gun and shooting an adult or a 10 yr old child?

Have a read of the following article: Punishing Illegal Abortion: If abortion is murder, should aborting women be tried as murderers?

Perhaps you should read my previous responses rather than trying to dance in circles.