Objective Morality?

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StMonicaGuideMe
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Re: Objective Morality?

Post by StMonicaGuideMe »

domokunrox wrote:Proinsias,

The problem with a plural truth claim or degrees of truth is that it is philosophically and mathamatically impossible.
Again, once you introduce a plural truth claim or degrees of truth. You are actually introducing a metaphor, not a real truth claim.

An objective truth claim MUST BE independent of us. This is because it is an all encompassing claim.
2 + 2 = 4, and it cannot be any other number. Not 1,2,3,5,6,7, etc.
My front door is closed and locked. Not open, not closed and unlocked, not locked and opened
A right triangle has one 90 degree angle. Not zero, not 2, not 3.

How about this though?
|1 x X | = 5, solve for X
The answer is 5 or -5, BUT this is NOT a plural claim.
The answer is objectively 5 or -5. Not 5 for me and -5 for you. Notice my language included into my claim. It is 5 OR -5. It is NOT 5 AND -5.
I enjoyed these examples Dom, though you might begin to encounter critics who say that using the word "truth" is not appropriate, because to go beyond "I exist" requires presumptions. This is the latest contention I've encountered at least, and it makes little sense, since they say "objective fact" in which case it is a TRUTH :pound: Oh how I love the semantics game.
To sustain the belief that there is no God, atheism has to demonstrate infinite knowledge, which is tantamount to saying, “I have infinite knowledge that there is no being in existence with infinite knowledge".
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B. W.
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Re: Objective Morality?

Post by B. W. »

Proinsias wrote:B.W, I'm happy in the water and you're happy on the rock, to each his own.

Thanks for asking about the weather. All is well here. Things were getting a little worrying, buses being blown over and that sort of thing. Most employers, including mine, let us away as things started to get bad so I got to sit out the worst of it in the house. One of the garden sheds didn't cope very well but thankfully that's the worst I got of it...
Glad to hear you are okay - but how do you know the garden shed didn't cope so well?
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
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domokunrox
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Re: Objective Morality?

Post by domokunrox »

Proinsias,

No problem, give those youtube video a watch. I especially recommend the John lennox one. Clete hux is an amazing apologetic, but he is geared towards deeper understanding once you have the Christian basics down.

What's interesting though is that you and jlay got into the to deny it is to affirm it.
That's the principle of self stultification and that is already included in the law of non contradiction.

Example
you can't know the truth
Is that true?

There is no absolute truth.
is that absolutely true?

Its true for you but not for me
Is that just true for you, but not for me?

Nothing is true for everyone
is that true for everyone?

No one knows the truth
How do you know that is true?

The very first principle we need to understand is that there are true truths.

In light of the principle of self stultification. We come to the first principal that ALL truth claims are absolute, narrow, and exclusive. This is including the claim that your plural truth view is exclusive, but you would not adopt this view because it is self defeating.

Truth corresponds to the facts
Truth is telling it like it is
truth matches its object
Truth corresponds to reality

I find it interesting that you say that math was invented. This is false. All truth is discovered. The greek philosophers never claimed to invent the mathematical tables. They in fact repeated over and over again that they were discovered. They were big math nerds. In fact, at one point they had a math posse, lol. They actually took math very seriously. For a while, they couldn't agree and they would kill people who didn't adhere to staying with only pure rational numbers. Only to later discover that irrational numbers led them to find more exclusive, narrow, and absolute answers.

Anyway, yeah, math wasn't invented. That's like saying gravity was invented. Newton discovered it, he didn't invent it. In fact, that's actually a good proof. Gravity and its laws adhere to math. If math was "invented" then that's a claim that an invention conforms to facts because math in itself is corresponds to facts. Effectively saying that math is absolute, narrow, and exclusively true.
Proinsias
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Re: Objective Morality?

Post by Proinsias »

Sorry bout the wait,

Hope all is going well with the little one Dom.

Jlay, at the risk of going round in cirlces - you can graph anything you want. You can approximate roundness on graph paper, you might get to 3.14 but not pi, pi by definition is irrational. I think it being a human ideal does make a difference, if it wasn't a human ideal we probably wouldn't be discussing it in relation to morality. It feels almost ontological to me, if we can look at something which isn't quite round and imagine something that is perfectly round then roundness becomes a truth.

Idealism is something I know very little about. I've just started to scratch the surface. From what I gather a lot Hegel's views, as with many other philosophers, were rooted in Aristotilean logic. What I'm beginning to realise for the first time is that it's not necessary to look eastwards to find thinkers who go against the basic assumptions of it, and as a bonus the western thinkers tend to attempt to explain why they don't take it for granted as opposed to just paying little attention to it.

The theology sideline was really in response to the video stating that every teaching that did not confess Jesus as God was the spirit of the antichrist. I don't see a compelling reason to believe that muslims are seeing a distorted trinity as opposed to Christians seeing a distorted Allah.

B.W:
From the high winds and the broken door my best deduction is that it was the storm.

domokunrox:
Simply saying it is false that maths was invented does not make it so. You then say that all truth is discovered, presumably equating mathematics with truth.

Newton is a great example. Hundreds of years later and the problem of gravity is still the holy grail of physics. Newton's laws of gravity have long been broken, the problem of gravity remains.
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B. W.
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Re: Objective Morality?

Post by B. W. »

Proinsias wrote:Sorry bout the wait,

Hope all is going well with the little one Dom.

Jlay, at the risk of going round in cirlces - you can graph anything you want. You can approximate roundness on graph paper, you might get to 3.14 but not pi, pi by definition is irrational. I think it being a human ideal does make a difference, if it wasn't a human ideal we probably wouldn't be discussing it in relation to morality. It feels almost ontological to me, if we can look at something which isn't quite round and imagine something that is perfectly round then roundness becomes a truth.

Idealism is something I know very little about. I've just started to scratch the surface. From what I gather a lot Hegel's views, as with many other philosophers, were rooted in Aristotilean logic. What I'm beginning to realise for the first time is that it's not necessary to look eastwards to find thinkers who go against the basic assumptions of it, and as a bonus the western thinkers tend to attempt to explain why they don't take it for granted as opposed to just paying little attention to it.

The theology sideline was really in response to the video stating that every teaching that did not confess Jesus as God was the spirit of the antichrist. I don't see a compelling reason to believe that muslims are seeing a distorted trinity as opposed to Christians seeing a distorted Allah.

B.W:
From the high winds and the broken door my best deduction is that it was the storm.

domokunrox:
Simply saying it is false that maths was invented does not make it so. You then say that all truth is discovered, presumably equating mathematics with truth.

Newton is a great example. Hundreds of years later and the problem of gravity is still the holy grail of physics. Newton's laws of gravity have long been broken, the problem of gravity remains.
Sorry to here about the door and gald it was not anything worse Pros. So to get back to the topic - how do you know the door was really broken?
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
Bill McEnaney
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Re: Objective Morality?

Post by Bill McEnaney »

Suppose that determinism is true. Then determinism guarantees that scientists will believe the hypotheses they do believe them whether they're true or not. If determinism guarantees that each person believes what he does believe whether his belief is true or not, why should I trust any scientist's scientific judgment any more than I trust my own scientific judgment when he and I draw opposite conclusions under the same conditions? On the same supposition, deterministic factors force him to believe what he believes, the same factors force me to believe the opposite conclusion. They may even guarantee that no one can know whether either conclusion is true. Sometimes science undermines its own credibility with its own theories.

That's why scientists need to know some philosophy because they need to reason about truths that are more general than scientific ones. Richard Weaver writes:
The theory of empiricism is plausible because it assumes that accuracy about small matters prepares the way for valid judgment about large ones. What happens, however, is that the judgments are never made. The pedantic empiricist, buried in his little province of phenomena, imagines that fidelity to it exempts him from concern with larger aspects of reality-in the case of science, from consideration of whether there is reality other than matter (Weaver 60)
Weaver believes that sensory experience is only an indirect source of knowledge because we need to know first principles before we can know any other truths. For him, we abstract from particular objects, too. So I think he would he would agree with St. Thomas Aquinas and me. For the saint and me, people abstract completely general ideas from what experience tells us. After you experience enough trees, you'll know what all trees have in common that distinguishes them from every other kind of object. You'll know an essence. You'll discover what you might call "tree-ness," and tree-ness is what you describe in a real definition, a definition that defines a thing rather than a word.

Weaver, Richard M. Ideas Have Consequences. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1948.
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