Evidence for God from Science

Katsuya, I think it would be helpful if you would say what a soul is or does in your religion. In Christianity there are animals (like insects) that have only their body - they are like biological robots. Then there are animals with souls - that is, they can feel emotions and think though not like humans. These are the animals people most often have as pets. Then there are humans and angels, who have a body, a soul and a spirit, who are sentient beings, have free will, reason, the ability to think creatively and who have a sense of morality, making them morally accountable. Well, that's a brief summary. So as you probably see, in Christianity souls are not the thing as in Buddhism. You would have to explain that though.

This is from Dignity USA, any thoughts?


The story of Sodom in Genesis 19 is about offense against the sacred duty of hospitality. That is how Ezekiel 16:48-49, Wisdom 9:13-14, and Ecclesiasticus 16:8 unequivocally interpret this text. The attempted male rape only heightens the atrocity of this offense against charity, the paradigmatic biblical sin.
Leviticus 18:22 does forbid male-male sex as an “abomina­tion.” But the word simply means an impurity or a religious taboo—like eating pork—and it only applies to penetrative anal sex, not other male or female same-sex acts. Such religious requirements were to maintain and strengthen Jewish identity. As in the case of Catholics who used to be forbidden under pain of mortal sin to eat meat on Friday, the offense was not in the act itself but in the betrayal of one’s religion.
Romans 1:27 mentions men having sex with men. But the terms used to describe it are “dishonorable” and “shameless.” These refer deliberately to social disapproval, not to ethical condemnation. Moreover, according to Paul’s popular usage, different from the technical Stoic philosophy of the day, para physin (“unnatural”) should be translated “atypical” or “beyond the ordinary.” It bears no reference to natural law. And it can imply no ethical condemnation because in 11:24 God is said to act para physin. Paul sees gay sex as an impurity (1:24), just like uncircumcision or eating forbidden foods. He mentions it to make a main point of his letter, that the purity requirements of the Jewish Law are not relevant in Christ Jesus (14:14). See L. William Countryman, Dirt, Greed, and Sex.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and 1 Timothy 1:8-10 list arsenokoitai among those who will be excluded from the Reign of God. This obscure term has been translated “homosexuals,” but its exact meaning is unknown. It certainly does not include women but refers to some kind of male sexual offense, probably involving money. If it does mean men having sex with men—which is dubious—it presumes the abuse and licentiousness commonly associated with male-male sex in the Roman Empire. See Robin Scroggs, The New Testament and Homosexuality.
Finally, Genesis 1-3 shows Adam and Eve created for mutual companionship and procreation. These accounts use the most standard of human relationships to teach a religious lesson. The point is the love and wisdom of God, who made all things good and wills us no evil. Nothing suggests the biblical authors intended a lesson on sexual orientation.

Here's my input on this...

Any living, sexual creature is capable of exhibiting erotic sensations towards anything else, given the environment. My dog humps her stuffed animals... and she's female! But let's not go there. The point is, sexual attraction is a very broad thing, but humans are not supposed to use that attraction however they want.

The bible says that if we commit unclean sexual actions of any kind, it is not right with God. But God gave us the institution of marriage, which, according to Paul, sanctifies sexual activity between a man and a women. Obviously necessary to have a family.

Does that mean homosexuality is a sin? Well, maybe not the attraction, but the choice of committing sexual actions goes against what God wants of us. Marriage is meant to establish and secure a healthy, clean sexual existence to fixed terms, and we aren't supposed to deviate from that.

Murray wrote:If homosexuality is a choice this would mean god is just.

If it is not a choice god applys to strict calvanist principles and is unjust.

But what I do not understand is how it can be a choice when people kill themselves over being gay, I mean if they want to be straight could they no just choose to be? Honestly, I could not stand being called such nasty words such as a acrnom for gay, I would immediatly want to become straight......

Heres the link to the gay churches view on why being gay is okay.
http://www.gaychurch.org/gay_and_christ ... an_yes.htm

Some people are born Gay that is a fact

Widge wrote:Some people are born Gay that is a fact

Genetics may well play a part in determining sexuality but to say it is fact that people are born gay is quite a claim - what would you back that up with?

Yes Pros, I too anxiously await the facts.

Murray wrote:If homosexuality is a choice this would mean god is just.

If it is not a choice god applys to strict calvanist principles and is unjust.

But what I do not understand is how it can be a choice when people kill themselves over being gay, I mean if they want to be straight could they no just choose to be? Honestly, I could not stand being called such nasty words such as a acrnom for gay, I would immediatly want to become straight......

Heres the link to the gay churches view on why being gay is okay.
http://www.gaychurch.org/gay_and_christ ... an_yes.htm

When a person commits suicide, it is usually not because of just one reason. There are many people that grapple with their sexuality yet suicide is far from their minds. I also really disagree when you say that if homosexuality is not a choice, then God is unjust. If people are born gay that means that people are also born straight. Yet God is not unjust when condemns the heterosexual as much as the homosexual. Remember the bible does not condemn homosexuality, but homosexual acts. I believe that a person truly seeking God will eventually have their prayers answered if they don't give up.

There are also many "ex" gays in heterosexual relationships who while still struggle with lustful desires, choose to put their faith in God as the source of their strength. So I conclude God is just either way...

I don't think, Widge, can prove People are born gay. Next you know people are born murderers, rapists, arsonists, abusive. The possibilities are endless. How do you go before a Judge and try to ask for Justice when the serial killer guy in question says that, he was born this way. I guess it becomes the law of the jungle from there on. A lion eats and kills and hunts, that his nature, we don't blame it for being so but yeah we are gonna gun it down. But it does not serve the idea of justice, merely self preservation. Justice is a higher concept. I mean you can't blame someone for who he is, that he was born this way. can you?

neo-x wrote:I don't think, Widge, can prove People are born gay. Next you know people are born murderers, rapists, arsonists, abusive. The possibilities are endless. How do you go before a Judge and try to ask for Justice when the serial killer guy in question says that, he was born this way. I guess it becomes the law of the jungle from there on. A lion eats and kills and hunts, that his nature, we don't blame it for being so but yeah we are gonna gun it down. But it does not serve the idea of justice, merely self preservation. Justice is a higher concept. I mean you can't blame someone for who he is, that he was born this way. can you?

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I have met people who have clearly been born Gay. I know when I was at school young men who acted Gay and ended up being Gay. Some people are born Gay. Christians need to grow up and accept that. Comparing them to killers is comparing one sin to another. We all sin It seems some Christians get a kick out of saying how sinful others are.

I have met people who have clearly been born Gay. I know when I was at school young men who acted Gay and ended up being Gay. Some people are born Gay. Christians need to grow up and accept that. Comparing them to killers is comparing one sin to another. We all sin It seems some Christians get a kick out of saying how sinful others are.

Widge, what exactly do you mean, when you say someone at school acted gay? And, at what age was this?

Even if people are born with homosexual attractions so what? We are born with a rebellious nature exactly the same with the born-homosexual situation. That's why homosexual acts are wrong but the temptations are not. That's why sin is wrong and not receiving temptation.

Widge,

All children are born selfish. All are born liars. You don't have to teach a child to be selfish, or to lie. They will do both, naturally. Since that is the way they are born, should we simply accept it and in fact nurture such behaviors? When we start really considering how we are born, we realize that society NEVER settles for inate behavior, leanings, etc. We train children to behave a certain way. We train them to control their urges.

It is a fact that every human has 100% control over where they put their sexual organs. There is no doubt in my mind that there are people who for some unknown reason are attracted to children. (Penn State case) And no doubt that these people struggle with that desire, and probably hate themselves for having it. They don't want it, and if they could wish it away they would. Are they born that way? I don't know. But are their tendencies an excuse for behavior? Absolutely not.

You can defend HS as an innate desire, but if you are consistent in the application of your reasons and if they were applied across the board we'd have a disaster.

jlay wrote:Widge,

All children are born selfish. All are born liars. You don't have to teach a child to be selfish, or to lie. They will do both, naturally. Since that is the way they are born, should we simply accept it and in fact nurture such behaviors? When we start really considering how we are born, we realize that society NEVER settles for inate behavior, leanings, etc. We train children to behave a certain way. We train them to control their urges.

It is a fact that every human has 100% control over where they put their sexual organs. There is no doubt in my mind that there are people who for some unknown reason are attracted to children. (Penn State case) And no doubt that these people struggle with that desire, and probably hate themselves for having it. They don't want it, and if they could wish it away they would. Are they born that way? I don't know. But is their tendency and excuse for behavior? Absolutely not.

You can defend HS as an innate desire, but if you are consistent in the application of your reasons and if they were applied across the board we'd have a disaster.

Basically it's a slippery slope that blurs the border between "rights" and sins.

Knowing some people who 'acted gay' at school and then went on to choose a homosexual lifestyle is not proof that people are born gay. There's a lot of nurture between being born and 'acting gay' at school. How would one go about proving factors in the first few years of life were not the major influence on sexual preference? or do you know many babies who 'act gay'.

I'm not Christian, I'm not gay. I don't have an issue with gay marriage or a homosexual lifestyle. However I don't hold much worth in the 'I was born this way' argument. As others have pointed out one can use that justification for almost any behaviour. For me it's more an issue of the sex life of consenting adults.

As jlay mentions desires can either be encouraged or suppressed when bringing up children. Much of the issue is that many now feel homosexuality is not something we should suppress or view as bad or sinful...... and some do.

As I've mentioned before much of the homosexual rights issue is not about accepting it as a sin on par with any other sin - it's about people declaring there is nothing wrong with it. The idea that it's not something to work through but something to embrace.

Proinsias, for folks that don't know him, is what we call a "closet Christian". He says he's not a Christian. He really is a Christian, but, he's still in the closet, with his Christianity.