Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Of course there is also the issue that God is STILL WORKING, as is Christ.

BUT in all honesty, we have to realize that no one is gonna convince the other in this matter and because of that, we truly should just take Paul's advice and leave it as such.

That has been my contention all along.

Are you saying that since God's work never ceases or hasn't ceased that even He is breaking/broke His own command?
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BavarianWheels wrote:

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Of course there is also the issue that God is STILL WORKING, as is Christ.

BUT in all honesty, we have to realize that no one is gonna convince the other in this matter and because of that, we truly should just take Paul's advice and leave it as such.

That has been my contention all along.

Are you saying that since God's work never ceases or hasn't ceased that even He is breaking/broke His own command?
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I took it the other way around, that every day is an opportunity to be a Sabbath day. My issue with this debate has never been with whether or not we ought to observe the Sabbath (need I really remind everyone ad nauseum that it's not a salvation issue?) but with it being understood on a particular day of the week. I see no scriptural support for that other than man's traditions.

Byblos wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Of course there is also the issue that God is STILL WORKING, as is Christ.

BUT in all honesty, we have to realize that no one is gonna convince the other in this matter and because of that, we truly should just take Paul's advice and leave it as such.

That has been my contention all along.

Are you saying that since God's work never ceases or hasn't ceased that even He is breaking/broke His own command?
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I took it the other way around, that every day is an opportunity to be a Sabbath day. My issue with this debate has never been with whether or not we ought to observe the Sabbath (need I really remind everyone ad nauseum that it's not a salvation issue?) but with it being understood on a particular day of the week. I see no scriptural support for that other than man's traditions.

The day being set is, from my understanding from rabbi's, a matter of tradition, yes.

As for God working:
Now it was the Sabbath on that day. 10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.” 11 But he answered them, “He who made me well was the one who said to me, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk.’” 12 They asked him, “Who is the man who said to you, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk’?” 13 But the man who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had slipped away while there was a crowd in that place. 14 Afterward Jesus *found him in the temple and said to him, “Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you.” 15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. 16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

Byblos wrote:I took it the other way around, that every day is an opportunity to be a Sabbath day. My issue with this debate has never been with whether or not we ought to observe the Sabbath (need I really remind everyone ad nauseum that it's not a salvation issue?) but with it being understood on a particular day of the week. I see no scriptural support for that other than man's traditions.

What then was the purpose of Exodus 16 if not to set ( or reset/remind them ) a particular day of the week? Further, why would God bless A day and not simply bless each day following creation? Why does Jesus even bother to answer questions about the Sabbath by establishing the good that should be done rather than saying something more along the lines of what "HE KNOWS" should be done away with after His crucifixion? Why did God admonish His created to "Remember..." if He never intended us to remember? Why would Christ, speaking of the end times, even say, "Pray that your flight will not be on the Sabbath..."? Why even bring up the Sabbath if it is no longer an issue? Did He not know? It's all very curious to me.

On one sense I agree, it's not a salvation issue, however in another sense, the way I SEE THIS is that there will come a day - again - like the day of Daniel 3:8-30. I hope I'm wrong.
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PaulSacramento wrote:As for God working:
Now it was the Sabbath on that day. 10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.” 11 But he answered them, “He who made me well was the one who said to me, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk.’” 12 They asked him, “Who is the man who said to you, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk’?” 13 But the man who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had slipped away while there was a crowd in that place. 14 Afterward Jesus *found him in the temple and said to him, “Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you.” 15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. 16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

Translation: God had finished creating and rested on the day He blessed from creating. After sin, there was work to do that is the work of God that is not "work" as in what is mentioned in the commandment. The Pharisees had put restrictions on menial work, calling it work and making it a sin according to them. Christ is simply showing that somethings are not "work" but necessary for God's work to be done. Healing the sick, feeding the hungry, helping the poor...all which is work, but not work towards our own self gain. The commandment tells us to not work, us nor our maidservant...all of which would be doing work for us individually for the "master's" gain or his own house. But the work of God is for God's gain and His House...see the difference? Therefore God has been working continually...and THAT work ( God's work ) is lawful and good to do on the Sabbath. Picking up one's own mat or only walking a certain distance are all man-made traditions.
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Of course, it is an interpretation issue.
On this we all agree I think.

BavarianWheels wrote:

Byblos wrote:I took it the other way around, that every day is an opportunity to be a Sabbath day. My issue with this debate has never been with whether or not we ought to observe the Sabbath (need I really remind everyone ad nauseum that it's not a salvation issue?) but with it being understood on a particular day of the week. I see no scriptural support for that other than man's traditions.

What then was the purpose of Exodus 16 if not to set ( or reset/remind them ) a particular day of the week?

You've referenced Exodus 16:22 before pertaining to this subject, but I still don't see where God dedicated THAT particular day as the Sabbath. It was the Israelites who already knew when their Sabbath falls (based on tradition) and gathered manna for 2 days instead of one so as not to break the Sabbath the next day.

BavarianWheels wrote:Further, why would God bless A day and not simply bless each day following creation?

I don't know what you mean here, of course each day was blessed for each day was declared good and very good. God is simply telling his people to dedicate a day for remembering Him, I don't see anywhere where He said it must be on a particular day.

BavarianWheels wrote:Why does Jesus even bother to answer questions about the Sabbath by establishing the good that should be done rather than saying something more along the lines of what "HE KNOWS" should be done away with after His crucifixion?

Again, how does that affect the idea of the Sabbath being on present day Saturday or Sunday or any other day? Jesus is saying whatever day you choose to be your Sabbath, make sure you do good on that day and not simply call it God's day and sit idly by while others are in need of help or are suffering.

BavarianWheels wrote:Why did God admonish His created to "Remember..." if He never intended us to remember?

"Remember" as in "Do this in memory of me", i.e. "Do not forget" as opposed to remember something past.

BavarianWheels wrote:Why would Christ, speaking of the end times, even say, "Pray that your flight will not be on the Sabbath..."? Why even bring up the Sabbath if it is no longer an issue? Did He not know? It's all very curious to me.

Of all the things you mentioned this is probably the only one that even comes close to supporting a Sabbath on a particular day but I suspect what Jesus meant here is that we should all be vigilant at all times as no one knows when the hour will be, particularly knowing that with man-made sabbath traditions, people tended to do nothing, i.e. are more susceptible to getting caught off guard.

BavarianWheels wrote:On one sense I agree, it's not a salvation issue, however in another sense, the way I SEE THIS is that there will come a day - again - like the day of Daniel 3:8-30. I hope I'm wrong.

Lol, if it did we'd be sure to escape the fire unscathed followed by a nice promotion.

BavarianWheels wrote:

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Of course there is also the issue that God is STILL WORKING, as is Christ.

BUT in all honesty, we have to realize that no one is gonna convince the other in this matter and because of that, we truly should just take Paul's advice and leave it as such.

That has been my contention all along.

Are you saying that since God's work never ceases or hasn't ceased that even He is breaking/broke His own command?
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No, Bav. I was referring to the second sentence in PaulSacramento's quote. Sorry for the confusion.

Byblos wrote:You've referenced Exodus 16:22 before pertaining to this subject, but I still don't see where God dedicated THAT particular day as the Sabbath. It was the Israelites who already knew when their Sabbath falls (based on tradition) and gathered manna for 2 days instead of one so as not to break the Sabbath the next day.

I'd say go back and read the chapter. You have missed a few "...the LORD commanded..." words in your bible.

Byblos wrote:I don't know what you mean here, of course each day was blessed for each day was declared good and very good. God is simply telling his people to dedicate a day for remembering Him, I don't see anywhere where He said it must be on a particular day.

I mis-spoke. There is only one day "...the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy." I said 'blessed' but given the context of the thread, I figure it was obvious even when I made a mistake. Obviously not.

Byblos wrote:Again, how does that affect the idea of the Sabbath being on present day Saturday or Sunday or any other day? Jesus is saying whatever day you choose to be your Sabbath, make sure you do good on that day and not simply call it God's day and sit idly by while others are in need of help or are suffering.

I disagree. The bible is clear. All these things took place on the Sabbath...remember the books are written by Jewish men. They would not call another day "the Sabbath" as a whim.

Byblos wrote:"Remember" as in "Do this in memory of me", i.e. "Do not forget" as opposed to remember something past.

Exactly. Do this in memory of me being Creator and therefore God.

Byblos wrote:Of all the things you mentioned this is probably the only one that even comes close to supporting a Sabbath on a particular day but I suspect what Jesus meant here is that we should all be vigilant at all times as no one knows when the hour will be, particularly knowing that with man-made sabbath traditions, people tended to do nothing, i.e. are more susceptible to getting caught off guard.

This is illogical. If in fact the "Sabbath" was any day...for Jesus ( God ) to pray that your flight not be on the Sabbath???? In other words pray that the end not come at all? Seems rather contrary to the whole point of redemption if we are to pray for no redemption time.

No, the better interpretation is that praying for your flight not to be on Sabbath is that that day is set aside for God...and this would interrupt worship to God...or on a "stretch" of interpretation and one that fits better to me, that your flight not be ABOUT the Sabbath/worship...as it was for Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego - SMA ( Daniel 3:13,14 ) If SMA didn't bow to an image, shouldn't we also not "bow" to an image of God's original? Sunday is an image of Sabbath. And a day that the RCC quite readily admits to making the change by her authority.
( Rome's Challenge )

Byblos wrote:Lol, if it did we'd be sure to escape the fire unscathed followed by a nice promotion.

True...but then again, SMA stood for a commandment of God.
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There is a reason there were synagouges over much of the Roman empire. Dispersion. However, the scattered children knew they were of the Kingdom, and I'd say most could tell you what tribe they were from. Just as Daniel, who lived in captivity. When Paul went on his missionary journeys they were not random, but targeted towards cities that had Jewish churches.
This dispersion is evidenced in Acts 2:5. Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.

The covenant with Israel was specific to a people and to a land. Even though these Jews were dispersed to far-away lands, they came back to Israel for Holy days. They expected God to fulfill His promises, and to do it in the promised land.

The word Gentile just means nations. Israel might be referred to as THE nation. Everyone else was nations. Israel in the broadest sense refers to the nation Israel, which God lead out of captivity, which includes all the 12 tribes. For which the scriptures say, "Hear ye Israel." This people group was distinct and set apart for the work of God, through the specific line of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

The word Gospel certainly means good news or glad tidings. It's what God has already accomplished for us ( post-cross ) but was still good news to Adam knowing he was saved according to a promise. God made garments of skin ( a sacrifice was made ) to clothe/cover Adam's nakedness ( sin ) and Adam was assured. It's the Gospel.

Contextually, there isn't anything in Genesis 3 that says any such thing. Certainly not to defend that everyone post Adam was an Israelite. Not sure why you'd even try to pursue that argument. It certainly doesn't excuse how you have ignored the greater counsel of scripture, which is clear on the distinctions.

jlay wrote:Contextually, there isn't anything in Genesis 3 that says any such thing. Certainly not to defend that everyone post Adam was an Israelite. Not sure why you'd even try to pursue that argument. It certainly doesn't excuse how you have ignored the greater counsel of scripture, which is clear on the distinctions.

Contextually? How about; "God made garments of skin..." Did the skins simply appear out of thin air? Did Adam and Eve not question what they were being covered with and why God killed an animal(s) to cover their nakedness?

Are you seriously suggesting there is a different line of humans than that of the line of the Adam and Eve of creation?
Now YOU'RE just being silly.

The greater counsel of scripture is that there is no Jew or Gentile...all are the same...all answer to ONE, UNCHANGING, God.
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Cardinal Gibbons - The Catholic Mirror 1893 wrote:THE CHRISTIAN SABBATH
The Genuine Offspring of the Union of the Holy Spirit and the Catholic Church His Spouse.
The claims of Protestantism to Any Part Therein Proved to Be Groundless, Self-Contradictory, and Suicidal.
The Adventists are the only body of Christians with the Bible as their teacher, who can find no warrant in its pages for the change of day from the seventh to the first. Hence their appellation, "Seventh-day Adventists". Their cardinal principle consists in setting apart Saturday for the exclusive worship of God, in conformity with the positive command of God Himself, repeatedly reiterated in the sacred books of the Old and New Testaments, literally obeyed by the children of Israel for thousands of years to this day and endorsed by the teaching and practice of the Son of God whilst on earth.

Rome's Challenge
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Cardinal Gibbons - The Catholic Mirror 1893 wrote:THE CHRISTIAN SABBATH
The Genuine Offspring of the Union of the Holy Spirit and the Catholic Church His Spouse.
The claims of Protestantism to Any Part Therein Proved to Be Groundless, Self-Contradictory, and Suicidal.

No Protestant living today has ever yet obeyed that command preferring to follow the apostate church referred to than his teacher, the Bible which from Genesis to Revelation, teaches no other doctrine, should the Israelites and Seventh-day Adventists be correct. Both sides appeal to the Bible as their "infallible" teacher. Let the Bible decide whether Saturday or Sunday be the day enjoined by God. One of the two bodies must be wrong, and , whereas a false position on this all-important question involves terrible penalties, threatened by God Himself, against the transgressor of this "perpetual covenant," we shall enter on the discussion of the merits of the arguments wielded by both sides. Neither is the discussion of this paramount subject above the capacity of ordinary minds, nor does it involve extraordinary study. It resolves itself into a few plain questions easy of solution:

Rome's Challenge
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From Bav's link:

"The arguments contained in this pamphlet are firmly grounded on the word of God, and having been closely studied with the Bible in hand, leave no escape for the conscientious Protestant except the abandonment of Sunday worship and the return to Saturday, commanded by their teacher, the Bible, or, unwilling to abandon the tradition of the Catholic Church, which enjoins the keeping of Sunday, and which they have accepted in direct opposition to their teacher, the Bible, consistently accept her in all her teachings. Reason and common sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday, or Catholicity and the keeping of Sunday. Compromise is impossible."

Did you get that, Byblos? Since I don't worship on Saturday, I have no other choice. I'm coming home!!! I'm getting my speedos ready! Ima gonna cross the Tiber!!

BavarianWheels wrote:

Byblos wrote:You've referenced Exodus 16:22 before pertaining to this subject, but I still don't see where God dedicated THAT particular day as the Sabbath. It was the Israelites who already knew when their Sabbath falls (based on tradition) and gathered manna for 2 days instead of one so as not to break the Sabbath the next day.

I'd say go back and read the chapter. You have missed a few "...the LORD commanded..." words in your bible.

Really Bav? Yeah, that's it, I must've missed them or must not be familiar with Exodus.

The part I'm asking you to highlight for me, from scripture that is, is where the Lord commanded anything on a specific day of the week, as opposed to commanding it on or before the Sabbath, which is whatever day the Israelites happen to have traditionally practiced it to be.

BavarianWheels wrote:

Byblos wrote:I don't know what you mean here, of course each day was blessed for each day was declared good and very good. God is simply telling his people to dedicate a day for remembering Him, I don't see anywhere where He said it must be on a particular day.

I mis-spoke. There is only one day "...the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy." I said 'blessed' but given the context of the thread, I figure it was obvious even when I made a mistake. Obviously not.

Your sarcasm aside, I still don't see where the day God declared holy was named on what we know today to be Saturday, other than man's traditions that is.

BavarianWheels wrote:

Byblos wrote:Again, how does that affect the idea of the Sabbath being on present day Saturday or Sunday or any other day? Jesus is saying whatever day you choose to be your Sabbath, make sure you do good on that day and not simply call it God's day and sit idly by while others are in need of help or are suffering.

I disagree. The bible is clear. All these things took place on the Sabbath...remember the books are written by Jewish men. They would not call another day "the Sabbath" as a whim.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree.

BavarianWheels wrote:

Byblos wrote:"Remember" as in "Do this in memory of me", i.e. "Do not forget" as opposed to remember something past.

Exactly. Do this in memory of me being Creator and therefore God.

No argument there.

BavarianWheels wrote:

Byblos wrote:Of all the things you mentioned this is probably the only one that even comes close to supporting a Sabbath on a particular day but I suspect what Jesus meant here is that we should all be vigilant at all times as no one knows when the hour will be, particularly knowing that with man-made sabbath traditions, people tended to do nothing, i.e. are more susceptible to getting caught off guard.

This is illogical. If in fact the "Sabbath" was any day...for Jesus ( God ) to pray that your flight not be on the Sabbath???? In other words pray that the end not come at all? Seems rather contrary to the whole point of redemption if we are to pray for no redemption time.

Again I don't know where you got all that from I said. What I'm saying is that Jesus is telling us to be vigilant on any day and especially on the Sabbath. How does that translate to the end time not coming at all?

BavarianWheels wrote:No, the better interpretation is that praying for your flight not to be on Sabbath is that that day is set aside for God...and this would interrupt worship to God...or on a "stretch" of interpretation and one that fits better to me, that your flight not be ABOUT the Sabbath/worship...as it was for Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego - SMA ( Daniel 3:13,14 ) If SMA didn't bow to an image, shouldn't we also not "bow" to an image of God's original? Sunday is an image of Sabbath. And a day that the RCC quite readily admits to making the change by her authority.
( Rome's Challenge )

Without getting into the RCC thing yet again, you're right that this is just an interpretation I obviously disagree with.

BavarianWheels wrote:

Byblos wrote:Lol, if it did we'd be sure to escape the fire unscathed followed by a nice promotion.

True...but then again, SMA stood for a commandment of God.

And God's commandment said to remember Him on the Sabbath and nothing else.

RickD wrote:From Bav's link:

"The arguments contained in this pamphlet are firmly grounded on the word of God, and having been closely studied with the Bible in hand, leave no escape for the conscientious Protestant except the abandonment of Sunday worship and the return to Saturday, commanded by their teacher, the Bible, or, unwilling to abandon the tradition of the Catholic Church, which enjoins the keeping of Sunday, and which they have accepted in direct opposition to their teacher, the Bible, consistently accept her in all her teachings. Reason and common sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday, or Catholicity and the keeping of Sunday. Compromise is impossible."

Did you get that, Byblos? Since I don't worship on Saturday, I have no other choice. I'm coming home!!! I'm getting my speedos ready! Ima gonna cross the Tiber!!

Crossing the Tiber is very easy Rick, no swimming lessons required, all you have to do is have the intent, float on your back, and you'll be carried all the way across (water baptism included). See you on the other side.