Evidence for God from Science

KBCid wrote:
G, do you get the same feeling when you read my posts as I do when I read yours?

Yes.. In fact I just sent you a pm.

For example, you're engaged in a pointless argument with me right now, lol.
Your last few responses weren't very "useful" in terms of the discussion going on in this thread, I thought.
Also just wanted to wind you up a bit

Lol, job well done

neo-x wrote:

For example, you're engaged in a pointless argument with me right now, lol.
Your last few responses weren't very "useful" in terms of the discussion going on in this thread, I thought.
Also just wanted to wind you up a bit

Lol, job well done

I've always found that I'm good at that job!

SB

I've always found that I'm good at that job!

Don't get a head of yourself

neo-x wrote:

I've always found that I'm good at that job!

Don't get a head of yourself

I hope that was said out of love for a fellow man

SB

neo-x wrote:Sorry, you are simply mistaken. There is no love outside of Torah? wow! great choice of words. If I follow what Christ said, I do not need any other definition at all.

I should let G speak for himself, but I believe what he's trying to get across is that the Biblical definition of love is given in the Torah. Yeshua backs up this idea.

Matthew 7:12
"In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Torah and the Prophets."

Matthew 22:37-40
"And He said to him, 'you shall love the Lord your G-d with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind (cf. Deut. 6:5).' This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself (cf. Lev 19:18).' On these two commandments depend the whole Torah and Prophets."

KBCid wrote:How many bodies of Christ are there?

Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Define where the Jew ends and the gentile begins. Christ preached the same message to both Jew and gentile. He sought to bring all together into the same body with the same rules and government. If I being a believing gentile do not become a brother to the believing Jew then what am I?

Here is Gods position on being Jewish;

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Note this reference in acts;

Act 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the CONVERSION of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

What were the gentiles converted to?

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

What you may be failing to realise here is where Jews came from. Read this scripture and see the truth;

Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Jews are in fact gentiles... that is where their bloodline originated. The first gentile Abram became Jewish after he showed faith in God. He was not a jew before that time. The difference between a Jew and a gentile is what exactly?

Gen 11:31 And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Gen 15:7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

This is the Covenant that formed the first Jew from a gentile. To accept God as the only God and walk before him perfect with a circumcised heart.
The 'token' or outward sign of this covenant as defined by God was;
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

So ultimately a Jew is not a Jew because he is circumcised on the outside but rather as it was written;

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Any gentile who fulfills the intent of the covenant that God desires will engage in a covenant just as Abram the gentile did and we will be given a new name just as Abram got and became Abraham;

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Okay, there's one body of Mashiach. But what does the Scripture say?

Galatians 3:28
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Mashiach Yeshua."

So, believers aren't Jews. Believers are defined by Mashiach. Now, they don't stop being Jews or Gentiles, but they don't change from one to the other. By saying so you're denying G-d's Oneness. Paul said,

Romans 3:29-30
"Or is G-d the G-d of Jews only? Is He not the G-d of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed G-d who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is One."

If Gentiles cannot believe and be saved without becoming Jews, then G-d is only the G-d of Jews. This is untrue.

Romans 2:28-29 has nothing to do about how people can "become Jewish." People can't become Jewish anymore than a white person can become black or vice versa. It's simply a matter of your blood. Again, you're equating spirituality with Jewishness, which is wrong and anti-Scriptural. This passage is simply saying that the people who were content to be a part of the chosen people through heritage and to rely on following the commandments outwardly (verse 17) are not truly followers of G-d. If this passage were saying that all people who're unsaved, regardless if they're Hebrew by heritage, are not truly Jewish, then why does Scripture constantly refer to unbelieving Jews as still Jews? And more importantly, how come throughout the whole Tanakh (Old Testament), HaShem CONSTANTLY refers to Israel and Judah as His people whom He loves, and that though they may be unfaithful at times He always calls them back. If they stopped being His people by not believing, they would no longer be His people.

Yeshua did NOT preach to both Jews and Gentiles, btw. He preached to Jews exclusively. Matthew 15:24, 10:6. His disciples only went to the Gentiles AFTER He was resurrected (Matthew 28:19).

And asking, "If I being a believing gentile do not become a brother to the believing Jew then what am I?" is a loaded question, that answers itself, really. You said yourself what you are; a believing Gentile. You most certainly are a brother to a believing Jew; this doesn't make you Jewish any more than it makes him a Gentile.

One is Jewish by being a descendant of Avraham. One is a Gentile by being someone who isn't a descendant of Avraham. True, believing Gentiles are spiritual sons of Avraham (Romans 4:11-12, 16). This does not make them Jews, it makes them of the same faith of the patriarch Avraham, joined to the nation of Israel, which is G-d's Nation, composed of believing Jews and Gentiles (Romans 11:17-24).

Friend, you are preaching replacement theology. G-d's covenant people are still the Jews, and by claiming yourself to be a Jew and any Jew who doesn't believe to be not truly Jewish, you're preaching an extremely offensive and un-Biblical doctrine which sprung up a few centuries after Yeshua's death, when the Gentiles started to outnumber the Jewish believers. It is anti-semitic, brother. I know you yourself are not anti-semitic, and I'm not claiming you are, but the message you're preaching is, and you need to reflect on what you're saying compared to the Scriptures objectively and honestly, without your presuppositions. You need to make sure you're being humble, and listen to your brothers and sisters in the faith. It says something when the majority of them are telling you you're in serious error. The truth isn't ALWAYS defined by what the majority of our brothers and sisters believe, but it often has meaning behind it.

The truth isn't ALWAYS defined by what the majority of our brothers and sisters believe, but it often has meaning behind it.

Words of wisdom.

I should let G speak for himself, but I believe what he's trying to get across is that the Biblical definition of love is given in the Torah. Yeshua backs up this idea.

I am not saying it doesn't cheez, I am simply saying that to say there is no love outside of Torah, is absurd.

neo-x wrote:

I should let G speak for himself, but I believe what he's trying to get across is that the Biblical definition of love is given in the Torah. Yeshua backs up this idea.

I am not saying it doesn't cheez, I am simply saying that to say there is no love outside of Torah, is absurd.

I'd also love some examples in scripture to back that point up, because in my opinion it is not the Torah but the NT which gives us biblical definitions of love.

SB

neo-x wrote:I am not saying it doesn't cheez, I am simply saying that to say there is no love outside of Torah, is absurd.

Well, I think it's really his wording that's the issue. Again, not trying to speak for him, but I BELIEVE what he means to say is that since Biblical love is defined by Torah, then there can't be true Biblical love without it being the love defined in the Torah. Not that one can't show true love for people without being Torah observant.

Sam1995 wrote:I'd also love some examples in scripture to back that point up, because in my opinion it is not the Torah but the NT which gives us biblical definitions of love.

SB

Well, I quoted some Scripture from the Gospels in my earlier post on this point. What Scriptures would you use to back up the idea that love is defined in the NT and not the Torah? because there are a lot of theological issues that come with that idea.

cheezerrox wrote:Okay, there's one body of Mashiach. But what does the Scripture say?
Galatians 3:28"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Mashiach Yeshua." So, believers aren't Jews. Believers are defined by Mashiach. Now, they don't stop being Jews or Gentiles, but they don't change from one to the other. By saying so you're denying G-d's Oneness. Paul said, Romans 3:29-30"Or is G-d the G-d of Jews only? Is He not the G-d of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed G-d who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is One." If Gentiles cannot believe and be saved without becoming Jews, then G-d is only the G-d of Jews. This is untrue.

Romans 2:28-29 has nothing to do about how people can "become Jewish." People can't become Jewish anymore than a white person can become black or vice versa. It's simply a matter of your blood. Again, you're equating spirituality with Jewishness, which is wrong and anti-Scriptural.

You are entitled to your own viewpoint of course but I do not simply make an assertion based on my own words. To be a Jew is not defined by genetics in Gods POV and he clarified that understanding in several places. We can see this with Christs words to the Jews who he spoke with on this subject;

Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

You see how the Jews were implying that their place with God was determined by their genetic lineage. They believed it was their right by Jewish birth to be saved by God. They were born Jews according to their rationale and this was all that was required of them besides following the Torah.

Again in another place it is written on this subject;

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

John new that the rationale of the Jews in his time was that their birthright was a genetic right. He made sure to correct that thought. He clarified that if all it meant to being Jewish was a genetic lineage from Abraham then God could simply recreate that genetic lineage at will. He also made sure to define what made a proper intended Jew Jew-"ish"... "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance" These were the works that defined Abraham... Abraham had faith and performed as he was directed by God... This is what it means to be Jew-ish or Jew-like.

Act 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent...
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

It was necessary that the word of God came first to the decendants of Abraham because this was Gods promise to Abraham that his word would come through his seed and be a light to the whole world... all men from all nations as it is written;

Act 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Here we see the topic referenced again about the genetic lineage and how it has no real meaning in Gods view;

Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

So being Jew-ish was not a lineage defined point. Being Jew-ish or Abram-like was far beyond genetics which we can again read for ourselves here;

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

So if ANY one of us from any nation come to have the type of faith that Abram first exhibited then we, whoever we may be, from whatever nation we may be, will become a child of Abraham. It is the faith exhibited that defined what it is to be Jew-"ish" or Jew-like.
If I can attain to exhibit the same faith as Abraham I will be one of the true children of Abraham since it is a spiritual discernment of spiritual lineage. A Jew is not a Jew because of his fleshly genetic makeup...

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Thus anyone who exhibits the same faith as Abram will become one of the children of Israel, one of the spiritual lineage of Abraham, one of the brothers or sisters of Christ, one of the Children of God. One body one faith exemplified by Abraham and Moses and Christ who are our examples for being adopted into the spiritual lineage of Gods family which are Jew-like in how they exist.

cheezerrox wrote: This passage is simply saying that the people who were content to be a part of the chosen people through heritage and to rely on following the commandments outwardly (verse 17) are not truly followers of G-d. If this passage were saying that all people who're unsaved, regardless if they're Hebrew by heritage, are not truly Jewish, then why does Scripture constantly refer to unbelieving Jews as still Jews? And more importantly, how come throughout the whole Tanakh (Old Testament), HaShem CONSTANTLY refers to Israel and Judah as His people whom He loves, and that though they may be unfaithful at times He always calls them back. If they stopped being His people by not believing, they would no longer be His people.

Israel is the people God loves as a concept. The Israel that God loves are spiritual Israel. At no time does God infer that he loves someone because of a genetic makeup. His promise to Abraham for his children did not mean every child in the lineage he would father.
The true Israel that will one day stand before God will be made up of peoples from every nation and they will each be able to claim they are children of Abraham as a spiritual lineage. It was never the genes that made a Jew a Jew. In Gods POV spiritual lineage is the only thing that matters. He defines over and over that we are the children of those we are spiritually like. All sinners who do not turn from their sins are children of satan regardless of their genetic physical form. Everyone who does turn from sin will become the children of Abraham and Jacob and God.

Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Further evidence is provided by Christ when he asks the famous question Mat 12:48 ...Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
The only possible answer that can be in line with the intent of his Father is;

Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Every single human that would become part of Gods family will become the spiritual Israel that God constantly references to. They will all have one thing in common. They will "do the will of my Father".

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

God is still forming the nation of Israel... the spiritual nation which are redeemed from the nations;

2Sa 7:23 And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?
2Sa 7:24 For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel to be a people unto thee for ever: and thou, LORD, art become their God.

God has clearly stated that he will dwell among the children of Israel. In the new covenant he indeed dwells among them in the form of the holy spirit.

1Ki 6:13 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel.
Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

God dwells among the children of Israel, not gentiles. This is why one must be converted and born again. When you are reborn it signifies that the father you had been children of is ended and you are born anew into Gods family as a child of Israel and you are a brother or sister to Christ and share a spiritual lineage with Abraham and Jacob.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

This spiritual tree of life is signified as the one body of Christ defines how one may be reborn into it or graffed in.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Once you are graffed in you are no longer a child of iniquity / sin and you are released from the bonds that are tied to sin which is death.

cheezerrox wrote:And asking, "If I being a believing gentile do not become a brother to the believing Jew then what am I?" is a loaded question, that answers itself, really. You said yourself what you are; a believing Gentile. You most certainly are a brother to a believing Jew; this doesn't make you Jewish any more than it makes him a Gentile.

Actually it did not answer the question. A believing gentile can be "converted" and become a child of Abraham as it is written;

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Just as Abram the gentile was converted to a Jew-"ish" faith in God so can any humman from any genetic lineage become converted and be counted as a child of Abraham to one day inherit the promise that was first given to Abram. Here is a message from Christ to a gentile;

Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Who are the many spoken of in this verse? Obviously since this conversation is with a gentile then the many will be those who begin as gentiles but who will ultimately become converted and become the spiritual children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

cheezerrox wrote:Friend, you are preaching replacement theology.

I am not preaching any type of replacement. The intent from the begining was that the lineage of Gods people is defined by as spiritual lineage. To assert that Gods people are defined by genetics is in oposition to every scripture I have put on the table in these past two posts.

cheezerrox wrote:G-d's covenant people are still the Jews,

The original outward covenant was done away with and the genetic lineage linked with that covenant is also done away with since it was also based on the physical.

cheezerrox wrote:and by claiming yourself to be a Jew and any Jew who doesn't believe to be not truly Jewish, you're preaching an extremely offensive and un-Biblical doctrine which sprung up a few centuries after Yeshua's death, when the Gentiles started to outnumber the Jewish believers.

I have never claimed to be a genetic Jew and I was not the first to assert that someone from the genetic lineage of Abraham can not be truly Jewish;

Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

Do you not see what is being said here? A jew is not a Jew because of physical genetics. Your lineage before God is determined by the spiritual. If you are a sinner who doesn't turn from sin then you are a child of satan. If you do turn from sin then you are reborn into a new family whose father is God, spiritual Israel and he will dwell with you as it is written;

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

2Co 6:16-18 for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

The children of Israel are the temple of God, they are his people and he is their father... not because of a genetic profile but because of their love and faith in him.

cheezerrox wrote:It is anti-semitic, brother. I know you yourself are not anti-semitic, and I'm not claiming you are, but the message you're preaching is, and you need to reflect on what you're saying compared to the Scriptures objectively and honestly, without your presuppositions. You need to make sure you're being humble, and listen to your brothers and sisters in the faith. It says something when the majority of them are telling you you're in serious error. The truth isn't ALWAYS defined by what the majority of our brothers and sisters believe, but it often has meaning behind it.

I have not one single bit of intent to be offensive or anti-semitic. Those who are genetically decended from Abraham have the same opportunity as anyone else to be the true children of Abraham and if you are both genetically and spiritually a child of Abraham then I'm sure you will have great rewards from 'our' Father who has in the new covenant determined how any human in existence can take part in the promise originally given to Abraham;

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

but thats the point kb, if one becomes a child of abraham, then that is in faith, not race. abraham was neither jew nor israelite and the promise is to those who are in faith, not a family.

people dont become israel, nor physical nor spiritual. they are one in christ, the true vine. and to call that israel is wrong. you are prooftexting ur way to each conclusion, it is a very poor approach, prone to be at fault more because u r reading into the text what u r arguing for

neo-x wrote:but thats the point kb, if one becomes a child of abraham, then that is in faith, not race. abraham was neither jew nor israelite and the promise is to those who are in faith, not a family.
people dont become israel, nor physical nor spiritual. they are one in christ, the true vine. and to call that israel is wrong. you are prooftexting ur way to each conclusion, it is a very poor approach, prone to be at fault more because u r reading into the text what u r arguing for

you are not getting my point. See if this elucidates my point better;

What Is "Jewish?"
Is Judaism a race, a religion or a nationality?

Judaism is not a race
Judaism is not a race because Jews do not share one common ancestry. For instance, Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardic Jews are both "Jewish." However, whereas Ashkenazi Jews often hail from Europe, Sephardic Jews often hail from the Middle East. People of many different races have become Jewish over the centuries.

Judaism is both a cultural and religious identity
http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasi ... jewish.htm

As I asserted prior Abraham was a gentile. His genetic line became Jew-"ish" because of religious belief. Religious beliefs are based on faith. Thus, believing in the truth of something as yet unseen. Being Jewish is not genetically determined, it is entirely based on faith.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Take note we were "aliens to the commonwealth" of Israel aka Gods people, "Gods nation and with Christ we are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God". So the covenants of promise that are only for the Israelites are now open to us because we can become spiritual Israelites. Fleshly considerations have been done away with. Christ broke down the middle wall of partition between us that was based on fleshly requirements.

You should also consider carefully the meaning of this scripture;

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

The new covenant will be with "Israel"

I just came across this podcast at Reasons.org, that has a brief discussion about eating pork. Just thought I'd throw it out there, as we were discussing this before. It's at the 26:04 mark:http://www.reasons.org/podcasts/i-didnt ... n-got-pork

RickD wrote:I just came across this podcast at Reasons.org, that has a brief discussion about eating pork. Just thought I'd throw it out there, as we were discussing this before. It's at the 26:04 mark:http://www.reasons.org/podcasts/i-didnt ... n-got-pork

Their ultimate answer to the pork question is "I don't see anything wrong with eating it".

But really why do people think God commanded them not to eat pork? was it because it was offensive to God? I would consider this verse for a moment;

Deu 4:40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.

God didn't just give people commands for his own pleasure in placing demands on his creation. There were commands given to help guide us through a long life. He built the living system, he knows from the inside out what is good or bad for our fleshly system and our spiritual system.

Why You Should Avoid Pork
Pork 101: Know the Facts
Pork is one of the most consumed meats in the world. China is the largest producer of pigs that were first domesticated way back around 7500 B.C. The Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) states that more than 100 viruses come to the United States each year from China through pigs. There are some obvious concerns about this. Aside from not needing more viruses to fight off, some of these viruses can prove to be downright dangerous to humans.
Of course, you’re probably familiar with H1N1, better known as ‘the swine flu.” This too is a virus that has made the leap from pig to human.
But H1N1 is not the only disease to fear from the pig. There are other sicknesses you can get from eating the meat of the pig.
Pork meat is loaded with toxins, more so than most other meats like beef and chicken.

Is Pork Meat Toxic?
There are reasons that the meat of the pig becomes more saturated with toxins than many of its counterpart farm animals. The first reason has to do with the digestive system of a pig............
http://www.draxe.com/why-you-should-avoid-pork/

Our maker gives commands for a reason. Pork may not be a sin against God but, you could consider it a sin against our own bodies. The Jewish nation had added a multitude of meanings and additional intents within Gods word to make it a burden to keep and the pork issue was taken far beyond its initial intent making it a sin against God himself if you ate it... but the more realistic truth would be that God loved man and gave him instruction for taking care of his flesh and soul. So if you want to eat pork its not a sin before God as he has stated but then you are left with the question "if it was never a sin against him then why did he give that instruction?" and would that reason still stand.

I have children and I commanded them to look both ways before crossing the street. Imagine that such a simple command could get taken to the extreme and at some future point people who get caught not looking both ways could be stoned to death for it..... Such a rationale would make the original command of none effect since it was intended solely to help protect life. These are the types of rationales that Christ fought against. Telling the people that such things are not a sin against God would be the only truthful thing that could be stated. However, the statement doesn't negate the original intent.

It will always be wise to look both ways before crossing the street.