Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:The Jewish sabbath law was a specific law given to the Israelites.

That is very true Rick. God gave his people rules and laws.

Now on the other, other hand. What is your position on how you treat that which is holy?
God is holy correct? and you reverence him right?
Gods word is holy correct? and you reverence that right?

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

This occured prior to God having chosen a people to convey his rules to. God specifically made the seventh day holy. The seventh was holy from the beginning and at no time has he ever removed the santification of the seventh day. God honored the seventh day because that day reflected the completion of his actions. No other day of the week can be nor has been defined as the weekly sabbath. We have one day in every week that we can honor the final action of Gods creation of everything and it is the one day of the week that he specifically blessed and sanctified or made holy to honor the ending of his creative actions. This sanctification can no more be removed or shifted than any other thing God has sanctified.

How do you honor the sanctification that God put in place for the seventh day?

KBC, let me see if I am able to explain this properly.

I believe the ultimate purpose of the Old Testament, and everything included in it, including all the laws, was to point to Jesus Christ. I believe if one understands this, then the OT , including the law, can be seen in its proper context.

KBC, I believe Genesis 2:3 is the first mention of a type of the coming Sabbath(Jesus Christ), in whom we find our rest.

If Genesis 2:3 is an ordinance since creation for all of mankind to observe the Sabbath, then how were people supposed to keep the Sabbath for the (at least) thousands of years from creation until the Sabbath law was given to Israel? Where in the OT, before the law was given to Israel, was the way to properly observe the Sabbath laid out? Furthermore, if the Sabbath day observance laws were meant for believers in the New Covenant, where in the New Testament are we told how to observe the Sabbath? If you look at how Israel was to observe the sabbath, you'll see that the law was very specific to Israel alone. There is absolutely no possible way for believers outside of the OT nation of Israel to follow the Sabbath law as it was given to Israel.

So, KBC, your question to me is:

How do you honor the sanctification that God put in place for the seventh day?

By believing in Jesus Christ. Our Sabbath rest.

RickD wrote:

Gman wrote:

jlay wrote:Faith and obedience should be united. It is an absolute load of bologne to say that promoting salvation by faith alone is somehow not promoting the transformed life.

Yes.. I think we understand that how you define "faith" is that someone is justified even just for merely laying on a couch in front of a TV. You see that is just wrong on many levels... If they have faith, then that faith will be followed by an action (in obedience to G-d), even if the believer doesn't understand exactly "why" they are doing it.

Now Gman, this kind of post doesn't help bring us closer. How you got jlay as advocating that one who is justified in Christ has the right to sit his butt on a couch and watch TV, is beyond me. You pulled the same garbage with me when I said I don't have to follow the Jewish sabbath. You made it out like I was saying I didn't want to take a day off of work.

KBC, I know Gman might not see it, but we're really not as far apart on this as it seems. Most of my disagreements come from the way Gman is wording some of his beliefs. I bet if we each really understood what the other was saying, we'd agree more than disagree.

I think we do agree... What I'm trying to address here however is this idea that it is faith alone that saves us... Hence you can sit all day in front of the TV and wait for the rapture to take you away from it all. Like fire insurance... Faith as the Bible states is ALWAYS usually followed by action as James 2:17-24 clearly states.. However.... however... It appears in order for a Holy action to be genuine under G-d's eyes, it must be given through Him through the Holy Spirit in faith and LOVE, and THEN proceeded out as action. On top of that, this action will also follow in some way in accordance with the commandments given to us in the Bible whether it be in the Tanach (OT) or the NT.

It should also be noted that if this Holy action is done for ulterior motives, such as pride, favors, salvation, bragging rights, and the likes, it will NOT stand... G-d also is the one who will ultimately judge the action, not really us.. And I will say this.. For someone to say that His commandments whether given in the OT or NT are legalism.... Is not only highly revolting.... But also a very strange thing to say...

That's all I'm saying...

RickD wrote:The Jewish sabbath law was a specific law given to the Israelites. God wanted them to follow that law in a very specific way. If one didn't follow it the way it was supposed to be followed, then the penalty was death. Taking the day off of work is not following the sabbath. Here is the basics on how the Israelites were to obey/follow the sabbath:
http://www.teshuvah.com/articles/shabbat/sabbath1.htm
If a gentile believer feels like he wants to obey the sabbath law, the least he can do is follow it by the basics in the link I posted. We really have to ask ourselves if Jesus really died so we should feel like we need to observe the Jewish Sabbath. Is observing the sabbath specifically how Jews were commanded to observe it, really how God wants us to show our love for Him?

Yes Rick... If you want to divorce yourself from G-d's commandments and build your own utopia that is fine by me... But as I've stated many times before we graft into covenants given to Israel... Not our own wacky ideas.. I find great joy in the sabbath now because I understand that it is corporate worship and that I don't have to work anymore. I want to protest against our wacky chaotic world that says you have to work everyday. The worldly systems teaches that you have to work everyday. That is true legalism... I don't want any part of that. I protest..

RickD wrote:If one didn't follow it the way it was supposed to be followed, then the penalty was death.

Also keep in mind that Christ saved us from the PENALTIES or CURSES of G-d's laws like in Galatians 3:13. Not that G-d's commandments are penalties or curses themselves. If we follow G-d's ways, we should be blessed according to the Bible.

James 1:25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

Therefore we are not under the penalties of the law... Since Christ suffered for us and died.... And took our place. But He didn't abolish G-d's ways either.. Like a been there done that attitude. Heaven forbid.

Gman wrote:
What I'm trying to address here however is this idea that it is faith alone that saves us... Hence you can sit all day in front of the TV and wait for the rapture to take you away from it all.

Then one would have to believe in a pre-trib rapture too.

I don't see anyone arguing for this point, here in this thread. So, although you keep using this picture of a believer sitting on the couch watching tv, nobody is saying that here.

Faith as the Bible states is ALWAYS usually followed by action as James 2:17-24 clearly states.

No disagreement here.

It appears in order for a Holy action to be genuine under G-d's eyes, it must be given through Him through the Holy Spirit in faith and LOVE, and THEN proceeded out as action.

I think I agree with this. You just worded it differently then I would.

On top of that, this action will also follow in some way in accordance with the commandments given to us in the Bible whether it be in the Tanach (OT) or the NT.

Here's where we get to the disagreement. You say the commandments "given to us" in the OT. Again, the commandments given in the OT, WERE NOT given to us, as believers under the New Covenant.

For someone to say that His commandments whether given in the OT or NT are legalism....

Gman, you are making a claim here that someone said God's commandments are legalism. Please post the quote that backs up this point. Nobody here has said that God's commandments are legalism.

Let me explain to you what I believe legalism is. I believe there are 3 kinds of legalism:

1) Where one tries to keep the Law of God to gain salvation.
2) Where one tries to keep the law to maintain salvation.

and
3) Where a believer judges other believers for not keeping certain codes of conduct that he thinks need to be observed.

I believe #3 is the one being referred to. If one understands the law in its proper context, then there is no legalism. The law in its proper context is a tutor to lead us to Christ:

Galatians 3:24:
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

So to sum it up: The law is not legalism. The law is good and perfect in its proper context. To point us to Christ. The law is not perfect in an improper context. Like, by following the law, one gains salvation.
I believe you are walking a very fine line regarding the 3rd kind of legalism that I listed above. You are judging other believers in regards to following laws that you believe we need to observe.
Romans 14:1-12 says we are not to judge our brothers on non-essential, debatable issues. And clearly, as shown by this thread, this is a debatable issue.

Romans 14:1-12
14 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the [a]servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5 One person [c]regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, [d]does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written,

“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall [e]give praise to God.”

12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

As I said from the beginning of all these threads about believers observing certain days, and eating certain foods, it is an issue of conscience between each individual believer and God. We are not to judge one another regarding this.

Yes Rick... If you want to divorce yourself from G-d's commandments and build your own utopia that is fine by me...

I find great joy in the sabbath now because I understand that it is corporate worship and that I don't have to work anymore.

That's great for you G. If you are a workaholic, and you need YOUR VIEW of observing the Sabbath to take a day off work, then so be it. I bet my house that you don't work six days from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Friday. If you don't, then you are not observing the Sabbath as given to Israel.

I want to protest against our wacky chaotic world that says you have to work everyday. The worldly systems teaches that you have to work everyday.

G, I don't know which world you live in. This world has never dictated to me that I have to work 7 days a week. It really sounds like you have an issue with being a workaholic. I think you need to bring that to God.

RickD wrote:So, KBC, your question to me is:

How do you honor the sanctification that God put in place for the seventh day?

By believing in Jesus Christ. Our Sabbath rest.

Ok good we are making progress. You have stated your belief so the next step for my information is how did you derive this interpretation if you would be so inclined to of course.
Just for a bit of background here I have already reviewed several sects such as seventh day adventist who on their surface appear to have a very powerful rationale for believing this subject in a different way. I am sure that you must be aware of these people and I would like to get your take on why you feel they are wrong and whether you feel they are heretical in some way. For me at this point I do not see anything about them that screams anti-Christian but I have a bit more research to do on their background so your reply may influence the final perspective even if its just a tip on what to look for.

Let me also state that at this time I understand that honoring the sabbath according to its day as God set it was to honor the acts of our creator just as God honored it so I tend to initially side with the adventists on this doctrine because I also wish to honor his acts of creation and honor the example he made at that time. So whether our actions were commanded or not it is what I consider an act of reflecting God in all his ways.

Gman wrote:Also keep in mind that Christ saved us from the PENALTIES or CURSES of G-d's laws like in Galatians 3:13. Not that G-d's commandments are penalties or curses themselves. If we follow G-d's ways, we should be blessed according to the Bible.
James 1:25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.
Therefore we are not under the penalties of the law... Since Christ suffered for us and died.... And took our place. But He didn't abolish G-d's ways either.. Like a been there done that attitude. Heaven forbid.

G this is how I understand it as well. Under the OT there was no salvation by the law because the proper offering for the sins commited was not available at that time. So when one sinned they made sacrifice year in and year out to simply cover the sin as a temporary measure and never eliminated the penalty permanantly. To permanantly eliminate past sins required the lamb that God would provide. But the understanding here is that Gods lamb would only be applicable in context to how sins were paid for not for how they came to be.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

When we consider Gal 3:24 it speaks of the law being a schoolmaster and it is here that I percieve that there is a disconnection of understandings.
This may be the point that needs to be zoomed in on.
If the law is a schoolmaster the obvious question would be what did it teach? so far I keep seeing others say that the simple message taught by the law was that it was entirely for the purpose of pointing to the need for Christ and so far our argument which also includes the last statement is that it was much more than just a simple pointer.
As I understand the position that we both appear to be bringing there are two forms of laws given one was the laws that defined the principles of God himself, the other defined a temporary measure of animal sacrifice to cover a mans sins until Shilo came who would then replace only those laws that were intended to be temporary.
So if I'm right then we can entirely get to the meat of the disconnect.

Romans 14:5,6 has recently been used as support for the idea that the Saturday Sabbath, God's festival days, and food laws are no longer binding on believers. If you are interested in Biblical accuracy, read the following and come to your own conclusions.

Romans 14:5-6: "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it."

Romans 14:1 reveals the context of verses 5 and 6: the discussion is about "disputes over doubtful things." These were matters of opinions which show that the author, Paul, was not addressing issues clearly stated and established in the Bible, such as when and if to obey the commandment to rest on the Sabbath day. Verses 5 and 6 about days occurs immediately between references to eating meat, vegetarianism and fasting in verses 2, 3, and 6, which are not Biblically related to Sabbath observance. To assume that Paul, a strict Pharisee who quoted the Old Testament many times, meant that the Sabbth, a feast day, no longer had to be kept is taking verses 5 and 6 far out of context. Paul's letter was written to a mixed church of gentile and Jewish believers, and arguments had broken out over some of their eating practices and fasting day traditions. The Sabbath day was not an issue here. Many people mistakenly believe that Romans 14 also proves that the Old Testament dietary laws restricting which meats can be eaten has been done away with. Many Bible authorities agree that Paul wrote this letter to the Romans in about 56 or 57 A.D. from Corinth, where there had been a lot of arguments about meat sacrificed to idols. These Bible experts say that the book of 1 Corinthians was written by Paul around 55 A. D. Chapters 8 and 10 in 1 Corinthians discuss meat sacrificed to idols, and this food controversy is the logical reason for Paul's comments about it in the book of Romans. The common practice of the Romans at the time was to offer sacrifices of meat and wine to idols, and then they sold whatever was left over in the marketplace. Romans 14:21 shows that the main subject of Romans 14 is the sacrifice of meats and wine to idols. The "Life Application Bible" comments on Romans 14:2 saying that some Christians at the time felt guilty about eating meat or drinking wine they had bought because they knew it could have been part of the meat or wine recently sacrificed to idols. Some Christians thought it was okay to eat part of the meat or drink wine that was used as a sacrifice. The most important point Paul makes in Romans 14 is not to offend anyone else if they are present when you are eating some meat or drinking wine as he points out in verses 13, 15, 16, 20, and 21.

Galatians 3:24,25 has also been used as supporting evidence against law keeping. Read the following, then come to your own conclusion.Those verses say:

"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

The original Greek word for "schoolmaster" is paidagogos, Strong's number 3807. This special word is used in the New Testament only 3 times, and according to Strong it basically means "guardian" or "disciplinarian," NOT "teacher" or "instructor," which is a significant difference. Verse 25 therefore does not say that we are no longer under a teacher of the law or no longer under what the law says or teaches, but rather that we are no longer under the penalty, punishment, or disciplinary part (potentially death for disobedience) of the Old Testament laws. Disciplinarians chastise, penalize, and punish people for breaking rules.

The Saturday Sabbath and food laws not only predate the Mosaic laws, they also postdate them, making the issue of whether or not they were abolished, quite meaningless, doesn't everyone agree?

Nothing above was copied from someone else's website. It is strictly from my own notes, research, studies, etc. If you don't like the verses I referred to, or do not believe them, that is certainly your right. I am interested primarily in discussing the Bible accurately.

RickD wrote: Here's where we get to the disagreement. You say the commandments "given to us" in the OT. Again, the commandments given in the OT, WERE NOT given to us, as believers under the New Covenant.

Yes I know, we've been over this before... I have said that the NT is ambiguous as to what laws we should be following... Neither did Christ nor Paul or the early apostles take all of the 613 plus laws or teachings in the Torah and then to checked off the ones we should do. Do you know how much time would be devoted to that? What do you expect them to do? So by default when they made comments about obeying the commandments, we can easily assume that they were the same ones given to us at Mt Sinai and other places in the OT. Keep in mind that the NT didn't come until some 300 years later AFTER Christ's death..

As you can clearly see, Yeshua never spoke against His commandments given in Torah.

Matthew 5:17-19, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commands;

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me, and the one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.”

RickD wrote: Gman, you are making a claim here that someone said God's commandments are legalism. Please post the quote that backs up this point. Nobody here has said that God's commandments are legalism.

Let me explain to you what I believe legalism is. I believe there are 3 kinds of legalism:

1) Where one tries to keep the Law of God to gain salvation.
2) Where one tries to keep the law to maintain salvation.

and
3) Where a believer judges other believers for not keeping certain codes of conduct that he thinks need to be observed.

I believe #3 is the one being referred to. If one understands the law in its proper context, then there is no legalism. The law in its proper context is a tutor to lead us to Christ:

Again I would say that G-d is the ultimate judge who is going to heaven or not... We are never told to condemn others about salvation Luke 6:37. However, if we (which would also include me) just crap on all of G-d's teachings and start making up our own rules, to me that would create division. That is the point I'm trying to make.. Either we believe G-d's word or we don't and make up what we want on our own.. As Yeshua said in Mark 3:25.

Mark 3:25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

RickD wrote:So to sum it up: The law is not legalism. The law is good and perfect in its proper context. To point us to Christ. The law is not perfect in an improper context. Like, by following the law, one gains salvation.
I believe you are walking a very fine line regarding the 3rd kind of legalism that I listed above. You are judging other believers in regards to following laws that you believe we need to observe.
Romans 14:1-12 says we are not to judge our brothers on non-essential, debatable issues. And clearly, as shown by this thread, this is a debatable issue.

Yes again I don't see it as judging others salvation. I'm not G-d nor do I want to be G-d.. However, we all need to correct each other in the body of Christ.. Everyone judges... Everyone.

Romans 14:1-12
14 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the [a]servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5 One person [c]regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, [d]does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written,

“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall [e]give praise to God.”

12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

If judging people is wrong, how can we obey Romans 16:17-18, 2 Corinthians 6:17, 2 Timothy 3:5-6, or I John 4:1? That's what I mean..

RickD wrote:As I said from the beginning of all these threads about believers observing certain days, and eating certain foods, it is an issue of conscience between each individual believer and God. We are not to judge one another regarding this.

Ok.. Then why are you judging me for wanting to obey G-d's laws?

RickD wrote:That's great for you G. If you are a workaholic, and you need YOUR VIEW of observing the Sabbath to take a day off work, then so be it. I bet my house that you don't work six days from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Friday. If you don't, then you are not observing the Sabbath as given to Israel.

It's not exactly my view of Sabbath.. It's G-d's view.. We just do our best to observe it.

RickD wrote:G, I don't know which world you live in. This world has never dictated to me that I have to work 7 days a week. It really sounds like you have an issue with being a workaholic. I think you need to bring that to God.

But do you? Washing dishes... Vacuuming your house? Then yes, you are being controlled...

Wolfgang wrote:
The Saturday Sabbath and food laws not only predate the Mosaic laws, they also postdate them, making the issue of whether or not they were abolished, quite meaningless, doesn't everyone agree?

Wolfgang, since this is the premiss of your argument, your argument fails. Show me from scripture where the Saturday Sabbath and food LAWS predate Moses. Specifically, where in scripture is there a Sabbath law before the Sabbath law given to Israel. There is no such law. The 10 commandments which include the Sabbath Commandment, were not given before Moses.

Genesis 26:5 says:

5 because Abraham [a]obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

If Abraham obeyed God's laws before the 10 commandments were given as laws, then why do you assume that we as believers have to obey the 10 commandments if we are to obey God's laws?

Deuteronomy 5:1-21:
5 Then Moses summoned all Israel and said to them:

“Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the ordinances which I am speaking today in your [a]hearing, that you may learn them and observe them carefully. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of [c]us alive here today. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face at the mountain from the midst of the fire, 5 while I was standing between the Lord and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the Lord; for you were afraid because of the fire and did not go up the mountain. [d]He said,

6 ‘I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of [e]slavery.

7 ‘You shall have no other gods [f]before Me.

8 ‘You shall not make for yourself [g]an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above [h]or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 9 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 10 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

11 ‘You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not [j]leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.

12 ‘Observe the sabbath day to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who [k]stays with you, so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day.

16 ‘Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God has commanded you, that your days may be prolonged and that it may go well with you on the land which the Lord your God gives you.

17 ‘You shall not murder.

18 ‘You shall not commit adultery.

19 ‘You shall not steal.

20 ‘You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

21 ‘You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, and you shall not desire your neighbor’s house, his field or his male servant or his female servant, his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.’

Wolfgang, pay close attention to the part I put in blue. The covenant was for Israel, not with their fathers. Remember, Israel had just come out of being slaves for 400 years without a day off! God was showing them that they needed to rest.

Again, to sum it up, if Abraham and all his descendants until Moses didn't follow a Sabbath law, and they were pleasing to God, why would you assume that if we as gentile believers don't follow the Sabbath law, we aren't pleasing to God? Our righteousness is in Christ. Christ obeyed the law without error, so that we who believe in him don't have to follow the Mosaic law.

Gman wrote:

Yes I know, we've been over this before... I have said that the NT is ambiguous as to what laws we should be following... Neither did Christ nor Paul or the early apostles take all of the 613 plus laws or teachings in the Torah and then to checked off the ones we should do. Do you know how much time would be devoted to that? What do you expect them to do? So by default when they made comments about obeying the commandments, we can easily assume that they were the same ones given to us at Mt Sinai and other places in the OT. Keep in mind that the NT didn't come until some 300 years later AFTER Christ's death..

G, is the NT really ambiguous? We are to follow the law of Christ. Not the OT law. All 613 laws in their totality, are the Law(Torah). You can't just pick and choose which of the 613 you want to follow. They are a package. Follow them all, and you follow the law. Fail at one point, and you fail at following the law.

Gman wrote:
As you can clearly see, Yeshua never spoke against His commandments given in Torah.

Jesus fulfilled the law! He followed the law perfectly, without error. We are now justified before God because of our faith in Christ, who fulfilled the law where nobody could.

Gman wrote:
As you can clearly see, Yeshua never spoke against His commandments given in Torah.

Matthew 5:17-19, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

G, did Christ fulfill the law or not? Remember, "It is finished"?

Gman wrote:
Again I would say that G-d is the ultimate judge who is going to heaven or not... We are never told to condemn others about salvation Luke 6:37. However, if we (which would also include me) just crap on all of G-d's teachings and start making up our own rules, to me that would create division. That is the point I'm trying to make.. Either we believe G-d's word or we don't and make up what we want on our own.. As Yeshua said in Mark 3:25.

G, by not following the law in its totality(all 613), in effect, you are making your own rules.

RickD wrote:So to sum it up: The law is not legalism. The law is good and perfect in its proper context. To point us to Christ. The law is not perfect in an improper context. Like, by following the law, one gains salvation.
I believe you are walking a very fine line regarding the 3rd kind of legalism that I listed above. You are judging other believers in regards to following laws that you believe we need to observe.
Romans 14:1-12 says we are not to judge our brothers on non-essential, debatable issues. And clearly, as shown by this thread, this is a debatable issue.


Gman wrote:
Yes again I don't see it as judging others salvation. I'm not G-d nor do I want to be G-d.. However, we all need to correct each other in the body of Christ.. Everyone judges... Everyone.

G, I didn't say you were judging others salvation. I said :

I believe you are walking a very fine line regarding the 3rd kind of legalism that I listed above. You are judging other believers in regards to following laws that you believe we need to observe.
Romans 14:1-12 says we are not to judge our brothers on non-essential, debatable issues. And clearly, as shown by this thread, this is a debatable issue.

Gman wrote:
If judging people is wrong, how can we obey Romans 16:17-18, 2 Corinthians 6:17, 2 Timothy 3:5-6, or I John 4:1? That's what I mean..

G, if scripture tells us not to judge other believers regarding eating certain foods and if we think one day is more important, or all days are equally important, then why are you judging?

RickD wrote:As I said from the beginning of all these threads about believers observing certain days, and eating certain foods, it is an issue of conscience between each individual believer and God. We are not to judge one another regarding this.


Gman wrote:
Ok.. Then why are you judging me for wanting to obey G-d's laws?

G, did you even read what I wrote? My argument all along has been that if you want to think one day is more important than others, that's fine. If you want to refrain from eating certain foods, that's fine. But when you tell me I'm sinning by not following Jewish Sabbath laws, and Jewish dietary laws, then that's just flat out wrong. Christ, by his death (It is finished), has fulfilled the law. Believers have the freedom in Christ to live according to our conscience regarding special days, and which foods we choose to eat which are sanctified by giving thanks to God.
Scripture tells me I can eat what I want with a clear conscience. You are telling me I'm sinning if I eat pork.

1 Timothy 4:1-5
1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

If I eat pork, it is good, and not to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

RickD wrote:That's great for you G. If you are a workaholic, and you need YOUR VIEW of observing the Sabbath to take a day off work, then so be it. I bet my house that you don't work six days from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Friday. If you don't, then you are not observing the Sabbath as given to Israel.


Gman wrote:
It's not exactly my view of Sabbath.. It's G-d's view.. We just do our best to observe it.

G, Christ has fulfilled the law. By doing your best and failing, you completely miss the mark. Don't you see that?

Do you want to live your life trying to follow the OT laws, and continually failing? Or do you want to live by faith in the one who fulfilled the law?
Let's see: keep missing the mark...or, hit the mark, by faith in Christ. Really not a difficult choice...

RickD wrote:
Wolfgang, pay close attention to the part I put in blue. The covenant was for Israel, not with their fathers. Remember, Israel had just come out of being slaves for 400 years without a day off! God was showing them that they needed to rest.

Again, to sum it up, if Abraham and all his descendants until Moses didn't follow a Sabbath law, and they were pleasing to God, why would you assume that if we as gentile believers don't follow the Sabbath law, we aren't pleasing to God? Our righteousness is in Christ. Christ obeyed the law without error, so that we who believe in him don't have to follow the Mosaic law.

Rick if the commandments were made only to Israel as a nation then logically you can do anything contrary to the ten commandants or any other Torah law.. Therefore you can steal, rape, murder, dishonor your parents, etc.. anytime you want.. Why? Because it was only directed to Israel..

Gman wrote:

RickD wrote:
Wolfgang, pay close attention to the part I put in blue. The covenant was for Israel, not with their fathers. Remember, Israel had just come out of being slaves for 400 years without a day off! God was showing them that they needed to rest.

Again, to sum it up, if Abraham and all his descendants until Moses didn't follow a Sabbath law, and they were pleasing to God, why would you assume that if we as gentile believers don't follow the Sabbath law, we aren't pleasing to God? Our righteousness is in Christ. Christ obeyed the law without error, so that we who believe in him don't have to follow the Mosaic law.

Rick if the commandments were made only to Israel as a nation then logically you can do anything contrary to the ten commandants or any other Torah law.. Therefore you can steal, rape, murder, dishonor your parents, etc.. anytime you want.. Why? Because it was only directed to Israel..

G, have you read Romans?

Romans 6:15
      15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

G, I said we are under the law of Christ, didn't I ?

If I am living by the spirit, loving God and my neighbor, am I going to want to steal, rape, murder, etc.? G, my conscience is clear when I eat a ham sandwich. I'm pretty sure the Holy Spirit & my conscience would convict me if I murdered someone. You're grasping at straws now.

RickD wrote: G, is the NT really ambiguous? We are to follow the law of Christ. Not the OT law. All 613 laws in their totality, are the Law(Torah). You can't just pick and choose which of the 613 you want to follow. They are a package. Follow them all, and you follow the law. Fail at one point, and you fail at following the law.

Rick you have to get over your mental block that G-d's laws are legalistic stumbling blocks... They most certainly are not... What about the over thousands of commandments in the NT? You want freedom? Why don't we just remove all the millions of laws of the United states? Come now...

http://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-n ... t-commands

RickD wrote:Jesus fulfilled the law! He followed the law perfectly, without error. We are now justified before God because of our faith in Christ, who fulfilled the law where nobody could.

RickD wrote:G, did Christ fulfill the law or not? Remember, "It is finished"?

Christ fulfilled the law therefore we don't need any more commandments? That is just nutty thinking... Sorry. So if someone paid my speeding ticket I can speed now anytime I want? Fulfilling does not mean subtracting...

RickD wrote:G, by not following the law in its totality(all 613), in effect, you are making your own rules.

Actually there more than 613 commandments given to us in the Bible. More like 1,700. Of course we can't do them all, but that doesn't mean we stomp over them either...

RickD wrote:G, if scripture tells us not to judge other believers regarding eating certain foods and if we think one day is more important, or all days are equally important, then why are you judging?

No... This wasn't judging, it's about understanding... Paul was not nullifying the law of Moses.. He goes on to teach that those who are weak may not understand the laws of Moses, but those who are stronger should bear with those who are weaker in the law. Now jump to chapter 15..

Romans 15:1-3 We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. 2 Each of us should please our neighbors for their good, to build them up. 3 For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: “The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me.”

Eventually those weak in faith will understand the ways of G-d to where there will be no more doubtful disputations. Letting one being "convinced in their own mind" doesn't mean that they just give up on G-d's ways, it means that they need to understand it in their mind or head.

RickD wrote:G, did you even read what I wrote? My argument all along has been that if you want to think one day is more important than others, that's fine. If you want to refrain from eating certain foods, that's fine. But when you tell me I'm sinning by not following Jewish Sabbath laws, and Jewish dietary laws, then that's just flat out wrong. Christ, by his death (It is finished), has fulfilled the law. Believers have the freedom in Christ to live according to our conscience regarding special days, and which foods we choose to eat which are sanctified by giving thanks to God.
Scripture tells me I can eat what I want with a clear conscience. You are telling me I'm sinning if I eat pork.

Rick I realize I can't convince you of any of the commandments.. You can't force someone to understand it.. You will have to make that decision on your own.. It has to be in you to understand.

RickD wrote:1 Timothy 4:1-5
1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

If I eat pork, it is good, and not to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

No... 1 Timothy 4:3 is not talking about G-d's dietary laws. That is just an assumption on your part. But if you think it is, do you eat raccoon, sea gulls, badgers, or other predatory animals? If so then perhaps it's the other way around.

RickD wrote:G, Christ has fulfilled the law. By doing your best and failing, you completely miss the mark. Don't you see that?

Do you want to live your life trying to follow the OT laws, and continually failing? Or do you want to live by faith in the one who fulfilled the law?
Let's see: keep missing the mark...or, hit the mark, by faith in Christ. Really not a difficult choice...

Rick... Do you always obey all the law of the United States? If you don't or missed one, do you suggest we just simply chuck them all away? Do you see where I'm going with this? Laws bring freedom.. That is the point of having laws... Freedom, not bondage.