The Gap theory

[abelcainsbrother]

I think it needs to be pointed out that Genesis was not the first book of the bible written,Job was the first book of the bible written and it has a lot of scientific stuff in it and about creation.A lot of people forget this because Genesis is the first book in the OT so they assume it was the first book written,this is a point Hugh Ross likes to bring up and I think its a good point.

[abelcainsbrother]

The Genesis Gap. Another good biblical teaching on it.
Part 1.
https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=wM1m2XMsDwg
Part 2
https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=H2xZZVQYA60

[bruce3]

We should travel first to inspired Peter the Apostle to get his Holy Spirit derived interpretation of Genesis 1:1,2. The horse before the cart Method!
I have researched Hebrew and Greek since 1963,and have a large collection of Hebrew and Greek lexicons. I only say this to show I do not base my assumptions on our English translation of the Bible as so many Young Creationists do. I base my understanding of Peters' account of the "beginning ['start point' arches Gk. Gen.1:1] of creation" from Greek and will only focus on a small portion of Peter's account and then repost later on due to time.

ll Peter 3:3-4:
" Knowing this first that will arrive in the Last Days those making sport- mockers being controlled and according to their own evil desires are saying, 'Where is the fulfillment of His coming because since the times the ancestors died all things have continued since the start of time and this is willingly concealed from them."

These 'scoffers' or those who ridicule (Gk.) by implication false teachers are composed as we know of skeptics such as atheists, scholars and professors and other unbelievers (and we are all are familiar with them making light or fun of creationists and the Biblical view ) who teach evolution which does not permit any vast gaps of time. The key all things have continued. "All" in Greek is panta which means 'all things' related to the beginning or first origin of 'creation' itself has never experienced an 'interruption' since this is Peter's refutation premise. Because they disbelieve the Scriptures a great truth or fact is concealed from their minds; namely, there was a massive gap or interruption of time from when the universe and the earth were first created.
There is our so called non existent Gap in Genesis 1:2 ; but we will let the Holy Spirit Who was guiding Peter expound on it.

Then Peter continues in verse 5 by the Spirit Who was at the 'beginning of creation;' "...that the universe was existing[imperfect tense] in ancient times, by the Word of God; but the earth was travelling out [ex Gk out of ] the water and through [ di Gk] this water..."

So Peter is stating that even though the original creation of Genesis 1:1 came into existence 'by the Word of God' or that He spoke it into immediate existence-a fiat creation not an evolved one - then Peter focuses on our earth itself at some point in time was 'going straight out [ex] of a water mass (in Gen.1:2 deep is tehome Heb. or raging mass of water ) and moving through [di]it! So there was a huge interruption in relation to the earth and creation's continuing - by implication- harmonious existence!!! The scoffers are in deep error as are those believers who affirm there was no gap in time as it concerns creation!
Now Peter focuses on Gen.1:2 in ll Peter 3:6:

"...through which water the universe [cosmos Gk created orderly universe] that then existed [Gen.1:1] was completely and violently flooded with water so that it was ruined." Peter says it was a cosmos in Gen.1:1 : which means well ordered, beautiful. Unlike some creationists that say it was an evolving creation and over time God brought it into a perfect creation are in error. Nothing that comes by and through the Mind and Word of God can be imperfect or evolving as evolutionists and secular scientists affirm!

Do we have evidence that this galaxy was 'inundated with water' at one time? At least the planets would have been flooded as Peter says 'cosmos' which includes the planets. YES! Stay tuned!


[]

[bruce3]

Part ll https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/ ... 30307.html

Yes, Mars was flooded with massive amounts of water in the ancient past just as Peter affirms some 2,000 years ago long before such evidence could be discovered by modern scientific means! They believe water was over the moon at one time too.

A student of mine years ago after hearing me lecture on this subject went to her astronomy professor as she was majoring in this subject (her name was Celeste!), and asked him about 'water being in the universe.' He said in effect, 'Water and vapor is everywhere you go in the universe!' There was water everywhere in the universe at one time

The mass of water on Mars from the Genesis 1:2 "deep" or 'raging turbulent water mass' Heb. or flood of water as Peter describes has long since evaporated into the universe, but traces of it's primordial existence still remain to be seen by scientists.

This universe though splendid displays imperfection and is at times explosive and chaotic yet order is evident. God renovated this earth, but allowed the universe- no longer Peter's perfect beautiful cosmos of Gen.1:1 -water to evaporate over time as science affirms with Mars' past water.

Where did all the water come from in the beginning Gen.!: 1 "Heavens" in Hebrew is literally the 'up lifted waters.' There was a massive amount of water and it was this water that inundated as Peters says the cosmos which included this earth. What caused this? It could only be when Satan and his myriads of angels become demons that fell from heaven. Jesus said he "witnessed"[in the past Gk] Satan 'fall from heaven like lightening,' and we know where it strikes it destroys. Isaiah 14: 12-15 ; Ezekiel 28:12-19; Luke 10:18 ;Revelation 12:4;7-9
They found they could not defeat God and his angels so they lashed out at his creation using that water mass. When God later created man Satan or the "serpent" (Rev.12:10) was there to cause man God's creation to fall and he was successful!

The idea the Creation was evolved comes from in my view by a lack of faith. The creation make no mistake was an outright miracle!!! All of God's miracles were instant and complete like creation of man; animals; water into wine; the dead raised; all healings, etc. So why not an instant Creation the greatest grandest miracle the universe?
What God creates as we know- witness man before the flood and this earth- is subject to a 'fall' of some kind whether man or creation. Satan hates God and at every turn wishes to destroy that which came from the Lord. This is what happened, Peter says, to this earth as well as the then beautiful and well ordered Cosmos. We get our word cosmetics from this Gk word. "All things" certainly did not 'continue' from the very start of Creation!

[Audie]

Part ll https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/ ... 30307.html

Yes, Mars was flooded with massive amounts of water in the ancient past just as Peter affirms some 2,000 years ago long before such evidence could be discovered by modern scientific means! They believe water was over the moon at one time too.

A student of mine years ago after hearing me lecture on this subject went to her astronomy professor as she was majoring in this subject (her name was Celeste!), and asked him about 'water being in the universe.' He said in effect, 'Water and vapor is everywhere you go in the universe!' There was water everywhere in the universe at one time

The mass of water on Mars from the Genesis 1:2 "deep" or 'raging turbulent water mass' Heb. or flood of water as Peter describes has long since evaporated into the universe, but traces of it's primordial existence still remain to be seen by scientists.

This universe though splendid displays imperfection and is at times explosive and chaotic yet order is evident. God renovated this earth, but allowed the universe- no longer Peter's perfect beautiful cosmos of Gen.1:1 -water to evaporate over time as science affirms with Mars' past water.

Where did all the water come from in the beginning Gen.!: 1 "Heavens" in Hebrew is literally the 'up lifted waters.' There was a massive amount of water and it was this water that inundated as Peters says the cosmos which included this earth. What caused this? It could only be when Satan and his myriads of angels become demons that fell from heaven. Jesus said he "witnessed"[in the past Gk] Satan 'fall from heaven like lightening,' and we know where it strikes it destroys. Isaiah 14: 12-15 ; Ezekiel 28:12-19; Luke 10:18 ;Revelation 12:4;7-9
They found they could not defeat God and his angels so they lashed out at his creation using that water mass. When God later created man Satan or the "serpent" (Rev.12:10) was there to cause man God's creation to fall and he was successful!

The idea the Creation was evolved comes from in my view by a lack of faith. The creation make no mistake was an outright miracle!!! All of God's miracles were instant and complete like creation of man; animals; water into wine; the dead raised; all healings, etc. So why not an instant Creation the greatest grandest miracle the universe?
What God creates as we know- witness man before the flood and this earth- is subject to a 'fall' of some kind whether man or creation. Satan hates God and at every turn wishes to destroy that which came from the Lord. This is what happened, Peter says, to this earth as well as the then beautiful and well ordered Cosmos. We get our word cosmetics from this Gk word. "All things" certainly did not 'continue' from the very start of Creation!

So, for clarity, God made everything instantly, but then did embedded age to make it look old?

Flood, but the he cleaned up the mess, papered over genetic bottlenecks rebuilt the ice caps with a hundred thousand years ice and generally left things so that the only way to know there was a flood is to read it in the bible?

Really?

[abelcainsbrother]

Part ll https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/ ... 30307.html

Yes, Mars was flooded with massive amounts of water in the ancient past just as Peter affirms some 2,000 years ago long before such evidence could be discovered by modern scientific means! They believe water was over the moon at one time too.

A student of mine years ago after hearing me lecture on this subject went to her astronomy professor as she was majoring in this subject (her name was Celeste!), and asked him about 'water being in the universe.' He said in effect, 'Water and vapor is everywhere you go in the universe!' There was water everywhere in the universe at one time

The mass of water on Mars from the Genesis 1:2 "deep" or 'raging turbulent water mass' Heb. or flood of water as Peter describes has long since evaporated into the universe, but traces of it's primordial existence still remain to be seen by scientists.

This universe though splendid displays imperfection and is at times explosive and chaotic yet order is evident. God renovated this earth, but allowed the universe- no longer Peter's perfect beautiful cosmos of Gen.1:1 -water to evaporate over time as science affirms with Mars' past water.

Where did all the water come from in the beginning Gen.!: 1 "Heavens" in Hebrew is literally the 'up lifted waters.' There was a massive amount of water and it was this water that inundated as Peters says the cosmos which included this earth. What caused this? It could only be when Satan and his myriads of angels become demons that fell from heaven. Jesus said he "witnessed"[in the past Gk] Satan 'fall from heaven like lightening,' and we know where it strikes it destroys. Isaiah 14: 12-15 ; Ezekiel 28:12-19; Luke 10:18 ;Revelation 12:4;7-9
They found they could not defeat God and his angels so they lashed out at his creation using that water mass. When God later created man Satan or the "serpent" (Rev.12:10) was there to cause man God's creation to fall and he was successful!

The idea the Creation was evolved comes from in my view by a lack of faith. The creation make no mistake was an outright miracle!!! All of God's miracles were instant and complete like creation of man; animals; water into wine; the dead raised; all healings, etc. So why not an instant Creation the greatest grandest miracle the universe?
What God creates as we know- witness man before the flood and this earth- is subject to a 'fall' of some kind whether man or creation. Satan hates God and at every turn wishes to destroy that which came from the Lord. This is what happened, Peter says, to this earth as well as the then beautiful and well ordered Cosmos. We get our word cosmetics from this Gk word. "All things" certainly did not 'continue' from the very start of Creation!

So, for clarity, God made everything instantly, but then did embedded age to make it look old?

Flood, but the he cleaned up the mess, papered over genetic bottlenecks rebuilt the ice caps with a hundred thousand years ice and generally left things so that the only way to know there was a flood is to read it in the bible?

Really?

Audie,how can you read what he wrote and ask them kind of questions? He is just pointing out that in the beginning whenever the beginning was,the kosmos was created perfect at that time,it was not created in a chaos state and then decorated and many believe this but it makes God look weak IMO.
But also the the kosmos has not went on continually for billions of years like scoffers claim,and like you claim and the reason you claim it did is because of evolution but something catastrophic happened in which the cosmos was flooded.

Also I have links in this thread that shows the universe has massive amounts of water in it,did you overlook them?There should be water in the universe if you understand the gap theory and there is.The heavens were flooded which destroyed the world that was on the earth at the time,and look at pictures of Mars and you'll see it once had water on it,yes God cleaned up the mess to create this world on the earth in Genesis 1:6-8.

[Audie]

Part ll https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/ ... 30307.html

Yes, Mars was flooded with massive amounts of water in the ancient past just as Peter affirms some 2,000 years ago long before such evidence could be discovered by modern scientific means! They believe water was over the moon at one time too.

A student of mine years ago after hearing me lecture on this subject went to her astronomy professor as she was majoring in this subject (her name was Celeste!), and asked him about 'water being in the universe.' He said in effect, 'Water and vapor is everywhere you go in the universe!' There was water everywhere in the universe at one time

The mass of water on Mars from the Genesis 1:2 "deep" or 'raging turbulent water mass' Heb. or flood of water as Peter describes has long since evaporated into the universe, but traces of it's primordial existence still remain to be seen by scientists.

This universe though splendid displays imperfection and is at times explosive and chaotic yet order is evident. God renovated this earth, but allowed the universe- no longer Peter's perfect beautiful cosmos of Gen.1:1 -water to evaporate over time as science affirms with Mars' past water.

Where did all the water come from in the beginning Gen.!: 1 "Heavens" in Hebrew is literally the 'up lifted waters.' There was a massive amount of water and it was this water that inundated as Peters says the cosmos which included this earth. What caused this? It could only be when Satan and his myriads of angels become demons that fell from heaven. Jesus said he "witnessed"[in the past Gk] Satan 'fall from heaven like lightening,' and we know where it strikes it destroys. Isaiah 14: 12-15 ; Ezekiel 28:12-19; Luke 10:18 ;Revelation 12:4;7-9
They found they could not defeat God and his angels so they lashed out at his creation using that water mass. When God later created man Satan or the "serpent" (Rev.12:10) was there to cause man God's creation to fall and he was successful!

The idea the Creation was evolved comes from in my view by a lack of faith. The creation make no mistake was an outright miracle!!! All of God's miracles were instant and complete like creation of man; animals; water into wine; the dead raised; all healings, etc. So why not an instant Creation the greatest grandest miracle the universe?
What God creates as we know- witness man before the flood and this earth- is subject to a 'fall' of some kind whether man or creation. Satan hates God and at every turn wishes to destroy that which came from the Lord. This is what happened, Peter says, to this earth as well as the then beautiful and well ordered Cosmos. We get our word cosmetics from this Gk word. "All things" certainly did not 'continue' from the very start of Creation!

So, for clarity, God made everything instantly, but then did embedded age to make it look old?

Flood, but the he cleaned up the mess, papered over genetic bottlenecks rebuilt the ice caps with a hundred thousand years ice and generally left things so that the only way to know there was a flood is to read it in the bible?

Really?

Audie,how can you read what he wrote and ask them kind of questions? He is just pointing out that in the beginning whenever the beginning was,the kosmos was created perfect at that time,it was not created in a chaos state and then decorated and many believe this but it makes God look weak IMO.
But also the the kosmos has not went on continually for billions of years like scoffers claim,and like you claim and the reason you claim it did is because of evolution but something catastrophic happened in which the cosmos was flooded.

Also I have links in this thread that shows the universe has massive amounts of water in it,did you overlook them?There should be water in the universe if you understand the gap theory and there is.The heavens were flooded which destroyed the world that was on the earth at the time,and look at pictures of Mars and you'll see it once had water on it,yes God cleaned up the mess to create this world on the earth in Genesis 1:6-8.

I wasnt talking to you.

[abelcainsbrother]

Here is a book written in 1876 called "The Earth's Earliest Ages".
Which is evidence the gap theory was around before Charles Darwin wrote "On the origin of species" in 1859.
This is a good book written by a great man of Christ G.H Pember who knew and understood the gap theory.This happens to be the expanded version of his original book.Even if you are'nt a believer in the gap theory,I still think it is a good read for any Christian who might not know how old the gap theory really is.I believe every idea out there needs to be understood and considered fairly.

https://archive.org/stream/earthsearlie ... 3/mode/1up

[abelcainsbrother]

Gap theorists have always believed Jeremiah 4:23-28 tells us what happened to cause the former world to perish.Those who reject the Gap theory claim Jeremiah 4:23-28 is a future prophecy but let me explain why Jeremiah 4:23-28 cannot be a future prophecy because we know when Jesus returns this fruitful place does not become a wilderness,we know Jesus sets up his 1000 year reign and we reign with Jesus on this earth and since lions lay down with lambs,we know all life does not die as bad as it gets in the tribulation.So Jeremiah 4:23-28 is a look back in time and not forward.

OK.let's compare Jeremiah 4:23 to Genesis 1:2.

Pay attention because I think you are going to see they describe the same thing.

Jeremiah 4:23 " I beheld the earth,and,lo, it was without form,and void; and the heavens,they had no light."

Genesis 1:2 " And the earth was without form,and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

It is clear that they are describing the same thing and Jeremiah goes on to explain what happened. So I have Moses and Jeremiah talking about the same thing but I also have Peter too adding even more detail.This is 3 different people living at different times all talking about the same thing telling us a former world perished.

2nd Peter 3:5-7 " For this they willingly are ignorant of,that by the word of God the heavens were of old,and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was,being overflowed with water,perished:

Moses,Jeremiah and Peter.

[RickD]

Jeremiah 4 is about Judah. Not some ancient prehistoric world. Anyone who reads Jeremiah 4, can see its context.

And in Jeremiah 4:23, it says , "I behold..."

It means "to see". As in a vision. Jeremiah was a prophet. Prophets see visions of the future.

ACB,

Just read the entire chapter of Jeremiah 4, from the beginning, and you can see that it's talking about Judah. Not the entire earth at some imaginary time in the past.

Jeremiah 4:1-31

Jeremiah 4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Judah Threatened with Invasion
4 “If you will return, O Israel,” declares the Lord,
“Then you should return to Me.
And if you will put away your detested things from My presence,
And will not waver,
2 And you will swear, ‘As the Lord lives,’
In truth, in justice and in righteousness;
Then the nations will bless themselves in Him,
And in Him they will glory.”
3 For thus says the Lord to the men of Judah and to Jerusalem,

“[a]Break up your fallow ground,
And do not sow among thorns.
4 “Circumcise yourselves to the Lord
And remove the foreskins of your heart,
Men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem,
Or else My wrath will go forth like fire
And burn with none to quench it,
Because of the evil of your deeds.”
5 Declare in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem, and say,
“Blow the trumpet in the land;
Cry aloud and say,
‘Assemble yourselves, and let us go
Into the fortified cities.’
6 “Lift up a standard toward Zion!
Seek refuge, do not stand still,
For I am bringing evil from the north,
And great destruction.
7 “A lion has gone up from his thicket,
And a destroyer of nations has set out;
He has gone out from his place
To make your land a waste.
Your cities will be ruins
Without inhabitant.
8 “For this, put on sackcloth,
Lament and wail;
For the fierce anger of the Lord
Has not turned back from us.”
9 “It shall come about in that day,” declares the Lord, “that the heart of the king and the heart of the princes will fail; and the priests will be appalled and the prophets will be astounded.”

10 Then I said, “Ah, Lord God! Surely You have utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, ‘You will have peace’; whereas a sword touches the [c]throat.”

11 In that time it will be said to this people and to Jerusalem, “A scorching wind from the bare heights in the wilderness in the direction of the daughter of My people—not to winnow and not to cleanse, 12 a wind too strong for [d]this—will come [e]at My command; now I will also pronounce judgments against them.

13 “Behold, he goes up like clouds,
And his chariots like the whirlwind;
His horses are swifter than eagles.
Woe to us, for we are ruined!”
14 Wash your heart from evil, O Jerusalem,
That you may be saved.
How long will your wicked thoughts
Lodge within you?
15 For a voice declares from Dan,
And proclaims wickedness from Mount Ephraim.
16 “Report it to the nations, now!
Proclaim over Jerusalem,
‘Besiegers come from a far country,
And lift their voices against the cities of Judah.
17 ‘Like watchmen of a field they are against her round about,
Because she has rebelled against Me,’ declares the Lord.
18 “Your ways and your deeds
Have [f]brought these things to you.
This is your evil. How bitter!
How it has touched your heart!”
Lament over Judah’s Devastation
19 My [g]soul, my [h]soul! I am in anguish! Oh, my heart!
My heart is pounding in me;
I cannot be silent,
Because [j]you have heard, O my soul,
The sound of the trumpet,
The alarm of war.
20 Disaster on disaster is proclaimed,
For the whole land is devastated;
Suddenly my tents are devastated,
My curtains in an instant.
21 How long must I see the standard
And hear the sound of the trumpet?
22 “For My people are foolish,
They know Me not;
They are stupid children
And have no understanding.
They are shrewd to do evil,
But to do good they do not know.”
23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was [k] formless and void;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills [l]moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, [m]the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.
27 For thus says the Lord,
“The whole land shall be a desolation,
Yet I will not execute a complete destruction.
28 “For this the earth shall mourn
And the heavens above be dark,
Because I have spoken, I have purposed,
And I will not [n]change My mind, nor will I turn from it.”
29 At the sound of the horseman and bowman every city flees;
They go into the thickets and climb among the rocks;
Every city is forsaken,
And no man dwells in them.
30 And you, O desolate one, what will you do?
Although you dress in scarlet,
Although you decorate yourself with ornaments of gold,
Although you enlarge your eyes with paint,
In vain you make yourself beautiful.
Your [o]lovers despise you;
They seek your life.
31 For I heard a [p]cry as of a woman in labor,
The anguish as of one giving birth to her first child,
The [q]cry of the daughter of Zion gasping for breath,
Stretching out her [r]hands, saying,
“Ah, woe is me, for I faint before murderers.”

[abelcainsbrother]

Jeremiah 4 is about Judah. Not some ancient prehistoric world. Anyone who reads Jeremiah 4, can see its context.

And in Jeremiah 4:23, it says , "I behold..."

It means "to see". As in a vision. Jeremiah was a prophet. Prophets see visions of the future.

ACB,

Just read the entire chapter of Jeremiah 4, from the beginning, and you can see that it's talking about Judah. Not the entire earth at some imaginary time in the past.

Jeremiah 4:1-31

Jeremiah 4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Judah Threatened with Invasion
4 “If you will return, O Israel,” declares the Lord,
“Then you should return to Me.
And if you will put away your detested things from My presence,
And will not waver,
2 And you will swear, ‘As the Lord lives,’
In truth, in justice and in righteousness;
Then the nations will bless themselves in Him,
And in Him they will glory.”
3 For thus says the Lord to the men of Judah and to Jerusalem,

“[a]Break up your fallow ground,
And do not sow among thorns.
4 “Circumcise yourselves to the Lord
And remove the foreskins of your heart,
Men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem,
Or else My wrath will go forth like fire
And burn with none to quench it,
Because of the evil of your deeds.”
5 Declare in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem, and say,
“Blow the trumpet in the land;
Cry aloud and say,
‘Assemble yourselves, and let us go
Into the fortified cities.’
6 “Lift up a standard toward Zion!
Seek refuge, do not stand still,
For I am bringing evil from the north,
And great destruction.
7 “A lion has gone up from his thicket,
And a destroyer of nations has set out;
He has gone out from his place
To make your land a waste.
Your cities will be ruins
Without inhabitant.
8 “For this, put on sackcloth,
Lament and wail;
For the fierce anger of the Lord
Has not turned back from us.”
9 “It shall come about in that day,” declares the Lord, “that the heart of the king and the heart of the princes will fail; and the priests will be appalled and the prophets will be astounded.”

10 Then I said, “Ah, Lord God! Surely You have utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, ‘You will have peace’; whereas a sword touches the [c]throat.”

11 In that time it will be said to this people and to Jerusalem, “A scorching wind from the bare heights in the wilderness in the direction of the daughter of My people—not to winnow and not to cleanse, 12 a wind too strong for [d]this—will come [e]at My command; now I will also pronounce judgments against them.

13 “Behold, he goes up like clouds,
And his chariots like the whirlwind;
His horses are swifter than eagles.
Woe to us, for we are ruined!”
14 Wash your heart from evil, O Jerusalem,
That you may be saved.
How long will your wicked thoughts
Lodge within you?
15 For a voice declares from Dan,
And proclaims wickedness from Mount Ephraim.
16 “Report it to the nations, now!
Proclaim over Jerusalem,
‘Besiegers come from a far country,
And lift their voices against the cities of Judah.
17 ‘Like watchmen of a field they are against her round about,
Because she has rebelled against Me,’ declares the Lord.
18 “Your ways and your deeds
Have [f]brought these things to you.
This is your evil. How bitter!
How it has touched your heart!”
Lament over Judah’s Devastation
19 My [g]soul, my [h]soul! I am in anguish! Oh, my heart!
My heart is pounding in me;
I cannot be silent,
Because [j]you have heard, O my soul,
The sound of the trumpet,
The alarm of war.
20 Disaster on disaster is proclaimed,
For the whole land is devastated;
Suddenly my tents are devastated,
My curtains in an instant.
21 How long must I see the standard
And hear the sound of the trumpet?
22 “For My people are foolish,
They know Me not;
They are stupid children
And have no understanding.
They are shrewd to do evil,
But to do good they do not know.”
23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was [k] formless and void;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills [l]moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, [m]the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.
27 For thus says the Lord,
“The whole land shall be a desolation,
Yet I will not execute a complete destruction.
28 “For this the earth shall mourn
And the heavens above be dark,
Because I have spoken, I have purposed,
And I will not [n]change My mind, nor will I turn from it.”
29 At the sound of the horseman and bowman every city flees;
They go into the thickets and climb among the rocks;
Every city is forsaken,
And no man dwells in them.
30 And you, O desolate one, what will you do?
Although you dress in scarlet,
Although you decorate yourself with ornaments of gold,
Although you enlarge your eyes with paint,
In vain you make yourself beautiful.
Your [o]lovers despise you;
They seek your life.
31 For I heard a [p]cry as of a woman in labor,
The anguish as of one giving birth to her first child,
The [q]cry of the daughter of Zion gasping for breath,
Stretching out her [r]hands, saying,
“Ah, woe is me, for I faint before murderers.”

I do agree Jeremiah 4 is about Judah and I have read this whole chapter before and I just read it again.I also agree Jeremiah was a prophet however it seems to me that when we get into 23-28 it is a look back in time at what happened to the earth and really what happened to the former earth is what is happening to Judah and Israel now as it is being restored and Judah will be in the future once the times of the gentiles are fulfilled,God will then turn back to Jews and focus more on them and they accept Jesus in the future,we are already witnessing the restoration of Israel and it will continue.

Also I have even considered Jeremiah 4:23-28 a future prophecy and I came to realize that what it describes does not happen in the future if we understand end-time bible prophecy and what happens,the earth never becomes an unfruitful place or a wilderness in the future,also birds and animals do not flee,all the world worships Jesus,the whole creation because Satan is bound and cannot interfere.This earth never becomes a wilderness in the future and all life does not die.

This is why I do believe it is a look back to the former world that perished and this is why I think Jeremiah 4:23 and Genesis 1:2 describe the same thing.

I realize this can be hard to accept if we accept that since the big bang for billions of years all things have gone on continually since the beginning,if we accept this? Then IMO it makes the bible wrong and I don't think the bible is wrong,I think uniformitarianism is wrong,this idea that for billions of years since the big bang all things have gone on continually.I do not believe it has.

Also we actually have fossils that I believe back up this former world existing and I think it testifies to the kind of life that lived in the former world that perished.We can see that it had totally different life in it than the life we have in this world,however I'm not looking at the evidence from an uniformitarianism point of view,I'm looking at it as a former world existed that perished.

This does not mean I reject the big bang theory at all,I just do not believe all things have gone on continually for billions of years.This is the way I see it for now,however I never rule out that I can be wrong and I intend to go where the evidence leads,willing to change my mind if enough evidence comes forward,but so far it has'nt.

Uniformitarianism is out and catastrophism is in according to the bible and we know there are really only 4 different ages anyway that geology has shown and I'm saying at least one of them times of extinction,all things stopped,there was a gap,or a break in what was happening.I tend to go with the ice age where Woolly mammoths,mastadons,sabre-teeth cats,beavers the size of black bears,etc all went extinct and an ice age with extinction fits Genesis 1:2 .

[bruce3]

As to our very good poster RickD,
I have a hindrance as I am a poor typist and move too slowly, but I try. I need to be short as it takes me too long to write everything!
Yes, Jeremiah 4 concerns Judah. Let's go to Isaiah 14. The prophet is addressing the King of Babylon in verse 4 and then suddenly goes to Lucifer (Lucifer or morning star /bright shining one-now Satan) before his 'fall' in verse 12! That is looking BACK something that prophets did in the OT! Isaiah under inspiration sees through the present king of Babylon and sees who is motivating him or Lucifer, that is, the king is acting like Lucifer did before his fall wanting to 'ascend' above God and his Government(vs.12-15) when the earth was perfect or in Gen.1:1. This is called near/far in theology. That is using some present or near condition or person/s to explain the past or present. See Ezekiel 28:12-17 where that prophet addresses the king of Tyre (guess he went flat lol) and that he is like Satan before his fall because of pride, intellect, beauty, etc. Conservative scholars see Satan as being like the present king as the king was never in "Eden the Garden of God" so it has to refer to Satan. There are other examples in the OT as well as the NT as Jesus saw the Roman invasion -or the near - in 70/1/2 AD - before it happened; but pictured it as a future or 'far' fulfillment in the armies of the world attacking Israel in the 'last days. Luke 21 with Revelation 16:12-16;Zachariah 14:1-2.
Jeremiah is doing the same thing or 'near and far' in our chapter 4 on Judah as he is going back in Sprit to the past when a great 'catastrophe' transpired(note there was 'no man' or humans then or Gen.1:2-cities means 'beautiful places'(comparing them to beautiful cities - this earth was beautiful or perfect then)when the earth experienced it's first flood- Gen.1:2 "deep" or tehome Heb. means a' raging violent mass of water'-to be compared in the far or future destruction to Israel in the great Tribulation! Note Jeremiah says " without form and void"-verse 23 same Hebrew words in Gen. 1:2! Compare to the end days when God says this earth will undergo violent judgment again Isaiah 29:17-23.

A close look at "without form"(Heb. To-hoo): to lie waste-;a desolation of the surface; a desert ;that is a figure of speech for something that is absolutely worthless or in done in vain; confusion( Paul-"God is NOT the author or originator of confusion") empty place- devoid of all worth ;nothing(!); wilderness,etc.,etc. It says the earth was "to-hoo." No, never did our Perfect God speak this earth into existence and it was to-hoo-NEVER !!! It is evil and insulting to God to even say this!
Then in Gen.1:2 ;Jer.4:23 we have "void"or bo-hoo in Heb. Means: empty; vacuity; an undistinguishable ruin ; marred; defaced (like the face of the Messiah Isaiah 52:14; 53 describes after his beatings!)'
The Creation of the earth(and the universe) was a miracle. All Miracles God and Jesus performed were instantaneous, complete and perfect. Water was instantly turned into wine;the blind saw instantly and clearly ; the lame walked on the spot; all were healed in an instant and perfect or as it says were made whole. God created man instantly; animals, birds, denizens, etc., were made instantly and perfectly. Why would God create a formless mass, a chaos, something that was of no value or worth or defaced? It had to come through His mind which only exhibits perfection. Nothing like 'to-hoo and bo-hoo' exit this Mind!!!
So He spoke or said 'Let be' and the entire universe or cosmos appeared instantly and it was totally perfect in every detail as given in Gen.1:1. At some point Ez.28 and Isa. 14 transpired and Satan fell! He and his hundreds and hundreds of billions of now fallen, but powerful angels, used all that water ("heavens "uplifted water mass Heb.)to as Peter says 'inundated the cosmos and it was destroyed' or as seen in Gen.1:2 God creates perfection ,but it is susceptible and can fall into ruin by rebellion and judgment. Jesus said of His primordial past , "I saw [as a witness] Satan fall as lightening." Where lightening strikes it can cause ruin and that's what Jesus was conveying.

Again, I am not good at typing or fully explaining myself with having to type-in person no problem with my Heb/Gk.books I can easily explain things ,etc. Sorry.

[abelcainsbrother]

Here is a sermon preached by C.H.Spurgeon delivered on Sabbath morning June 17,1855. 4 years before Charles Darwin' s " On the origin of species" in 1859. This is for those who want to know the gap theory was being preached in Christian churches before evolution.Young earth creationists often wrongly teach that the gap theory came about to make evolution science fit into the bible,which is wrong,but YEC' s also wrongly teach that the earth was discovered to be millions of years old because of evolution which is wrong also.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0030.htm

Here is an excerpt:

But if you look in the first chapter of Genesis, you will there see more particularly set forth that peculiar operation of power upon the universe which was put forth by the Holy Spirit; you will then discover what was his special work. In the 2d verse of the first chapter of Genesis, we read, "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." We know not how remote the period of the creation of this globe may be—certainly many millions of years before the time of Adam. Our planet has passed through various stages of existence, and different kinds of creatures have lived on its surface, all of which have been fashioned by God. But before that era came, wherein man should be its principal tenant and monarch, the Creator gave up the world to confusion. He allowed the inward fires to burst up from beneath, and melt all the solid matter, so that all kinds of substances were commingled in one vast mass of disorder. The only name you could give to the world, then, was that it was a chaotic mass of matter; what it should be, you could not guess or define. It was entirely "without form and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." The Spirit came, and stretching his broad wings, bade the darkness disperse, and as he moved over it, all the different portions of matter came into their places, and it was no longer "without form, and void;" but became round, like its sister planets, and moved, singing the high praises of God—not discordantly, as it had done before, but as one great note in the vast scale of creation. Milton very beautifully describes this work of the Spirit, in thus bringing order out of confusion, when the King of Glory, in his powerful Word and Spirit, came to create new worlds:—

[NobodySpecial]

J Vernon McGee taught and believed in the Gap theory eventhough I don't think he got into the science of it.

Although he subscribed to the Gap theory his focus primarily against evolutionists is the fact that regardless of the time that the earth/universe has been here, if you go back far enough you eventually have to explain how something came from nothing. His tactic was not so much the focus on using Gap theory as a weapon, but using it as a means to agree with the evolutionist before taking the argument further and asking "what came before that?" That's where evolutionist theory fails because it can't explain why something is here as opposed to nothing.

In regards to whether Gap theory, old earth or young earth is the actual case - those all seem like minor details when discussed among Christians.

"In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things - charity" - St. Augustine

[abelcainsbrother]

J Vernon McGee taught and believed in the Gap theory eventhough I don't think he got into the science of it.

Although he subscribed to the Gap theory his focus primarily against evolutionists is the fact that regardless of the time that the earth/universe has been here, if you go back far enough you eventually have to explain how something came from nothing. His tactic was not so much the focus on using Gap theory as a weapon, but using it as a means to agree with the evolutionist before taking the argument further and asking "what came before that?" That's where evolutionist theory fails because it can't explain why something is here as opposed to nothing.

In regards to whether Gap theory, old earth or young earth is the actual case - those all seem like minor details when discussed among Christians.

"In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things - charity" - St. Augustine

I don't think J Vernon McGee really debated evolutionists he just taught the bible and preached salvation through Jesus.J Vernon McGee whenever he gave a speech,etc always invited those that are lost to come and be saved by Jesus.This does not mean he never mentioned evolutionists but his primary focus was to teach and preach the word of God.I also think he saw how effective the gap theory was against evolution as no evolutionists could beat Gap theorists in debates in colleges.

I believe the Gap theory is true according to the word of God first and it amazes me how many Christians don't really know about or understand the truth of the gap theory but have chosen more popular creation theories to the point that not even God's word can change their mind.If the gap theory is true biblically,Christians should be teaching it,instead of denying for more popular theories and until the church does,evolution is here to stay and the truth will not be known.

If the majority of the church had been teaching the Gap theory instead of young earth creationism? Evolution would not be so believable today and probably would be a minority belief,and possibly may not even be around anymore,the church has been fighting evolution using the wrong creation theories and they have had no effect.