Evidence for God from Science

Philip wrote:I'm not buying it!

I don't believe an atheist actually wrote it - as it's too self effacing, doesn't even pretend to assert there can be useful morality within atheism. This letter's "viewpoint" honestly reveals, with atheism, questions of morality - even self-serving ones - need not even be entertained. As the over-arching supposed benefit of a Godless world is "freedom" - do whatever/whenever/however - as it so suits and serves oneself. Atheism is the ultimate - the absolute zenith of narcissism.

After further observation; I don't think it is an atheist either; I think it is a militant theist in disguise. He seems to confirm everything militant theists like to accuse atheists of being.

Ken

Kenny wrote:

Philip wrote:I'm not buying it!

I don't believe an atheist actually wrote it - as it's too self effacing, doesn't even pretend to assert there can be useful morality within atheism. This letter's "viewpoint" honestly reveals, with atheism, questions of morality - even self-serving ones - need not even be entertained. As the over-arching supposed benefit of a Godless world is "freedom" - do whatever/whenever/however - as it so suits and serves oneself. Atheism is the ultimate - the absolute zenith of narcissism.

After further observation; I don't think it is an atheist either; I think it is a militant theist in disguise. He seems to confirm everything militant theists like to accuse atheists of being.

Ken

I liked your post, not because I agree with you as such, but because I like the civilised discussion (even if it seems to be getting nowhere)

I think there is some logic in the letter though. You don't think that according to evolutionary theory the feelings of romantic love people have for each other would be seen as having their origin in the drive to reproduce? Sure, some people don't want to reproduce - that would be a bit of a waste to evolution but it's more the exception than the rule. I think evolution could be possible, by the way, just not evolution without God

Kenny wrote:

Philip wrote:
I'm not buying it!

I don't believe an atheist actually wrote it - as it's too self effacing, doesn't even pretend to assert there can be useful morality within atheism. This letter's "viewpoint" honestly reveals, with atheism, questions of morality - even self-serving ones - need not even be entertained. As the over-arching supposed benefit of a Godless world is "freedom" - do whatever/whenever/however - as it so suits and serves oneself. Atheism is the ultimate - the absolute zenith of narcissism.


After further observation; I don't think it is an atheist either; I think it is a militant theist in disguise. He seems to confirm everything militant theists like to accuse atheists of being.

Ken



I liked your post, not because I agree with you as such, but because I like the civilised discussion (even if it seems to be getting nowhere)

I think there is some logic in the letter though. You don't think that according to evolutionary theory the feelings of romantic love people have for each other would be seen as having their origin in the drive to reproduce? Sure, some people don't want to reproduce - that would be a bit of a waste to evolution but it's more the exception than the rule. I think evolution could be possible, by the way, just not evolution without God

Nicki

Nicki, at least you recognize that evolution - IF true (and I don't believe in macroevolution - simple organisms to man), is entirely impossible without God. But I don't believe it because 1) I believe that the Genesis Creation accounts are God's Word and are written in such a way that does not allow for it - ESPECIALLY not for the evolution of man. The sequence of what was created, how Adam & Eve came to be, how sin and death (of men) entered the world - unless you view those accounts as unexplainable allegories, then they rule out evolution - but such a view opens its own can of worms; 2) The fossil record is problematic for evolution, IMHO; 3) Progressive Creationism explains the fossil record and great age of the earth AND it fits with the Scriptural accounts, and does so without having to explain away Creation Bible passages as being merely allegorical as opposed to historical.

Welcome, again, BTW!

Kenny wrote:

B. W. wrote:What good is such intelligence when after you die you cease to be?

While alive it is very useful. After I'm dead.... even if it were useful, there would be nobody around to take advantage of it's usefulness; right?

Then how can life be valuable is it is random and truthfully pointless? You hit the nail on the head - after you are dead - all you do and did - is useless too. How can there be any value in that?

Kenny, you pose a logical contradiction in this regard, you state because life is limited, it is has value and then say what you stated above: "After I'm dead.... even if it were useful, there would be nobody around to take advantage of it's usefulness; right?"

You known, Ken, The writer of Ecclesiastes wrestled with the same point. Life without eternity being placed in the heart is all but smoke and vapor (vanities of vanity). Just live, enjoy the ride and die into oblivion's nothingness. However, with God creating us, we do have hope that does make our human life valuable due to God alone changing our fallen abandoning, betraying, rejection, quid pro quo, mocking, condescending nature back to His never ending perfection He originally intended. Eccl 12:13,14

Kenny wrote:

B. W. wrote:Again, you are defending nothingness as the ultimate source of good; which by the way, poses a logical contradiction...

Nothingness as the ultimate source of good? Nothingness after death might be a reality, but I never said it was a source of good; where are you getting this stuff?

Atheism doesn't define me the way Christianity defines you. I'm no more a piece of meat than a car is a pile of steel glass rubber and vinyl

Atheism does define a person, such as yourself as without God and any true hope in this world. All that faces you is oblivion's nothingness, yet in reality, you will awake into a new state of eternal being and discover that all along you believed a lie. That happened to me once. Not again. Christ Jesus came to reconcile us back to God. He took your and my anger and snide-ness against God and buried the enmity so you and I can find everlasting life. I found it.

Now according to your above comments: "After I'm dead.... even if it were useful, there would be nobody around to take advantage of it's usefulness; right?"

This proves your point of view speaks with forked tongue. On one hand you state life is valuable because it is limited and then say what you said - well proves something does it not? Maybe your value on life is not what you really think it is? You think?

Now...

Kenny wrote:

B. W. wrote:You mentioned that life is more valuable than gold on this planet.

I think you are confusing me with someone else. I never compared gold to life. BTW I do consider HUMAN life more valuable than gold, but there are plenty of other life forms I do not consider as valuable as Gold.

Kenny, you wrote this... and no I am not confusing you with another:

Kenny wrote:...The fact that I will not be around a billion years from now doesn't mean what I do today doesn't matter; it matters TODAY. The more plentiful something is, the less valuable it becomes. If Gold were as common as lead, it would be worthless. The fact that life is as limited as it is makes it that much more precious while you have it. Living forever makes each precious moment of life practically worthless. I value my life more because it is limited.

...Lead has value as well! But it isn’t as valuable as Gold. I think you understand the point I was making. Ken

Atheism is just lead... as it supports nothing based on the oblivion of nothingness as the ultimate source of life's valuabliness. Living forever in a perfectly restored and reconciled manner back to our creator forever is indeed more valuable than Gold. Yet, you just stated in a way, militant atheisms true colors - they hate life that never ends and celebrate nothingness as supreme. Thank you for proving my original point. Appreciate that

So eat drink for tomorrow we die! oh what value!

Kenny wrote:

B. W. wrote:How can that be, when it ceases into the oblivion of nothingness after life dies? Do you see a conundrum here?

Life is valuable while you are alive. Make no mistake about it; I would love for to live forever (as you believe) but wishing something to be true doesn’t make it true. I see no evidence that supports your claim that we could live forever.

Ken

You are wishing for life that ceases into oblivions nothingness. Been there and back - there is life after death Ken. Deny it all you want in such wishful thinking will not save you. Only Jesus can - it is easy as John 3:16...
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RickD wrote:NS,

That's a great letter. I too thought it was written by a Christian in disguise(who but ignorant Christians thinks people evolved from an ape?) But after reading the link, it seems the writer named as John, was really an atheist.

I'd like to hear what Kenny says, but the letter seems spot on to me!

Good find NS!

Kurieuo wrote:As sad as it is, it is refreshing to actually read an Atheist who understands their beliefs.
This doesn't disprove Atheism. Many of us (including sugar-coated Atheists) may not want to face up a harsh reality.

The moral argument would be a poor one to make against this Atheist who has swallows his bitter pill.
And it is a bitter pill to swallow that grinds against our most basic intuitions of right and wrong, real meaning in the world, etc.

There is one question I am constantly asked over and over again. I’ve been asked this question many times in the past, and I am sure I will be asked it many times in the future. That question is; “why am I here?” Theists often wonder why an Atheist would join a christian discussion forum.
The above replies is why. Someone claiming to be an atheist (I have my doubts) claims a true atheist is as he describes himself to be; a sociopath. Not only does he make such claims unchallenged, but some actually see him as an honest atheist.
I think people like myself, Audie (though I haven’t seen her for a while) and other atheists are necessary to challenge such claims.
That’s why I’m here.

Ken

Nicki wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Philip wrote:I'm not buying it!

I don't believe an atheist actually wrote it - as it's too self effacing, doesn't even pretend to assert there can be useful morality within atheism. This letter's "viewpoint" honestly reveals, with atheism, questions of morality - even self-serving ones - need not even be entertained. As the over-arching supposed benefit of a Godless world is "freedom" - do whatever/whenever/however - as it so suits and serves oneself. Atheism is the ultimate - the absolute zenith of narcissism.

After further observation; I don't think it is an atheist either; I think it is a militant theist in disguise. He seems to confirm everything militant theists like to accuse atheists of being.

Ken

I liked your post, not because I agree with you as such, but because I like the civilised discussion (even if it seems to be getting nowhere)

I believe our civilized discussion did get somewhere.

Nicki wrote:I think there is some logic in the letter though. You don't think that according to evolutionary theory the feelings of romantic love people have for each other would be seen as having their origin in the drive to reproduce?

Evolution addresses reproduction, but not love. People reproduce because of love; not evolution.

Ken

Ken,

Something I see with Atheists, well also Christians and people in general, is that they don't follow the logical outcome of their beliefs and thoughts.
Which is fine, and great, because if people did and ignored their conscience then the world would be a much more scary place.

Now "that Atheist", whether or not he is Atheist, I'm sure probably isn't a sociopath. I think that is quite unfair of you.
If asked, and indeed he is a real person, I'm sure he might respond that he is repulsed by many immoral acts.

Rather, Atheism logically leads exactly to what he identified.
Now how he comes to terms with these truths in his own life, well we just don't know.

1. NOONE is saying that THAT is what Atheists are like.
2. RATHER we do try to point out that THAT is what a world without God logically leads to.

Atheists normally only hear (1) when Theists try point out the logical conclusions of Atheism as found in that "Atheist's letter".
When Theists are constantly trying to show the truth of (2) while accepting that many Atheists are human with morals, feelings, emotion, empathy and the like.

You however, sir, and I hope you aren't offended, are a sugar-coated Atheist -- like Audie.
You don't realise the logical outcomes of a world without God and what that really means.
That there is really no meaning in the world, or no real right and wrong and a host of other intuitive beliefs that we take for granted.
Why? Because you -- your intuition -- says otherwise and you can't escape it. BUT, logically, these sentiments are all hollow if a good God doesn't exist.

BW
Then how can life be valuable is it is random and truthfully pointless?

Ken
Just because something is random doesn’t mean it is pointless and has no value.


BW
You hit the nail on the head - after you are dead - all you do and did - is useless too. How can there be any value in that?

Ken
As I said before, the value in life is before you die

BW
Kenny, you pose a logical contradiction in this regard, you state because life is limited, it is has value and then say what you stated above: "After I'm dead.... even if it were useful, there would be nobody around to take advantage of it's usefulness; right?"

Ken
Again; the value in life is BEFORE you die.



BW
Atheism does define a person, such as yourself as without God and any true hope in this world.

Ken
Perhaps YOU define me that way; I don’t. Again; atheism doesn’t define me the way Christianity defines you.

BW
All that faces you is oblivion's nothingness

Ken
(LOL) that’s what faces you as well; you just don’t realize it.

BW
Now according to your above comments: "After I'm dead.... even if it were useful, there would be nobody around to take advantage of it's usefulness; right?"

This proves your point of view speaks with forked tongue. On one hand you state life is valuable because it is limited and then say what you said - well proves something does it not?

Ken
Yes! That the value in life is BEFORE you die.


Ken

Kurieuo wrote: Ken,

Something I see with Atheists, well also Christians and people in general, is that they don't follow the logical outcome of their beliefs and thoughts.
Which is fine, and great, because if people did and ignored their conscience then the world would be a much more scary place.

As Atheists, you don’t know our beliefs and thoughts, so how can you say we don’t follow the logical outcome of our beliefs? Now if you disagree, I challenge you to list our beliefs and thoughts.

Kurieuo wrote:Now "that Atheist", whether or not he is Atheist, I'm sure probably isn't a sociopath. I think that is quite unfair of you.

That is the way he described himself. Either he is a sociopath or he was lying about how he really feels.

Kurieuo wrote:If asked, and indeed he is a real person, I'm sure he might respond that he is repulsed by many immoral acts.

I think his exact words were “only the fear of incarnation prevents him from killing you and raping your wife” Now perhaps that isn’t immoral in his book, but it is in mine. I suspect it is immoral in yours as well; do you agree?

Kurieuo wrote:Rather, Atheism logically leads exactly to what he identified.

Are you kidding me? Explain.

Kurieuo wrote:Now how he comes to terms with these truths in his own life, well we just don't know.

1. NOONE is saying that THAT is what Atheists are like.
2. RATHER we do try to point out that THAT is what a world without God logically leads to.

Lack of God belief does not lead to rape and murder. Most Christians are aware of this; I’m surprised you aren’t.

Kurieuo wrote:Atheists normally only hear (1) when Theists try point out the logical conclusions of Atheism as found in that "Atheist's letter".
When Theists are constantly trying to show the truth of (2) while accepting that many Atheists are human with morals, feelings, emotion, empathy and the like.

You however, sir, and I hope you aren't offended, are a sugar-coated Atheist -- like Audie.

There is no such thing as a sugar coated atheist. Atheists aren't the monsters you are claiming us to be.

Kurieuo wrote:You don't realise the logical outcomes of a world without God and what that really means.

Actually YOU don’t. I live in a world without God and it is nothing like you say it is.

Kurieuo wrote:That there is really no meaning in the world, or no real right and wrong and a host of other intuitive beliefs that we take for granted.
Why? Because you -- your intuition -- says otherwise and you can't escape it. BUT, logically, these sentiments are all hollow if a good God doesn't exist.

Further proof that you don’t know what it means to live in a world without God.

Ken

This to me just shows why the moral argument is so ineffective to Atheists.
It will always be received in subjective terms by the Atheist as a reflection of something being said of them.
And then it is received as an insult and becomes emotionally charged.

Let's take a person who is an Atheist and does not believe in God.
And yet, at a funeral and feeling great sorrow they pray, although they don't believe in God.

Is the Atheist's prayer logically real or hollow?

Kurieuo wrote: Let's take a person who is an Atheist and does not believe in God.
And yet, at a funeral and feeling great sorrow they pray, although they don't believe in God.

Why would an Atheist pray when he feels sorrow?

Kurieuo wrote:Is the Atheist's prayer logically real or hollow?

IMO the person is no longer an atheist

Ken

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote: Let's take a person who is an Atheist and does not believe in God.
And yet, at a funeral and feeling great sorrow they pray, although they don't believe in God.

Why would an Atheist pray when he feels sorrow?

Kurieuo wrote:Is the Atheist's prayer logically real or hollow?

IMO the person is no longer an atheist

Ken

Really? I've seen Atheists go through the motions if you will.
And they definitely, at least in discussion, do not believe God exists.

But, it was an example.
I suppose to show that what we feel may be real and sincere,
and yet we'd both call an atheist who prayed logically inconsistent.

Perhaps by a similar token you're not really an atheist, you're conscience bearing witness against you.
Only, you don't see the connection between those qualities you intuitively embrace (because you so strongly feel them) which logically require Theistic foundations.
And so at heart your being acknowledges God even if you consciously very strongly deny Him.

Kurieuo wrote:
Really? I've seen Atheists go through the motions if you will.
And they definitely, at least in discussion, do not believe God exists.

Going thru the motions is different. I’ve been in situations with family, or even at work where everybody gathers in a circle, holds hands and someone prays over the food before a big meal or feast; and out of respect for others I will close my eyes while the prayer is going on. This doesn’t mean I believe in the prayer, it is just something done to keep the peace. If it were an Islamic gathering perhaps they would bow towards Mecca, which I would do as well. To do so mean nothing to me, but I realize it means a lot to everyone else; so why cause trouble? Now this is different than crying out to God when things get tough or when in grief IMO.

Kurieuo wrote: But, it was an example.
I suppose to show that what we feel may be real and sincere,
and yet we'd both call an atheist who prayed logically inconsistent.

I’ve seen theists who are perhaps temporarily angry at God, perhaps looking for shock value; claim to be Atheist. This sounds like one of those characters.

Kurieuo wrote: Perhaps by a similar token you're not really an atheist, you're conscience bearing witness against you.
Only, you don't see the connection between those qualities you intuitively embrace (because you so strongly feel them) which logically require Theistic foundations.
And so at heart your being acknowledges God even if you consciously very strongly deny Him.

That’s where we disagree. What about those who worship what you might call a non-existent God yet embrace the same qualities you and I embrace? Do you think they are really Christians who claim to worship something else even though they perhaps never heard of your God, only theirs?

Ken

Kenny wrote:...Yes! That the value in life is BEFORE you die.

Ken

You simply repeated yourself in response to me that same thing. Since all there is in this life is all there is of any value. Let me tell you, you have no value and no worth on this planet or universe at all. All arguments and debates are meaninglessness as well as the atheist position. Have you considered how meaningless you are as you assign no value to those who do not hold your views - as living beings before we die - do you?

We show respect to your opinions here, yet, you do not show the same value of respect to those living here and responding to the claims you make. This proves you do not value life as you stated: because the value in life is BEFORE you die.

Question: Why can't you live by a truly live and let live standard then?

What makes it an imperative need to crush and destroy Christianity since all is nothingness anyways?

Does this not prove your high moral superiority in error as you do not respect Christian life and point of view while touting in the same breath because the value in life is BEFORE you die?

This make your point of view hypocritical but alas since there is only nothingness and one day the sun implodes and all life here ceases anyways - guess you can get away with such hypocriticalness and contradictions. Sir, you cannot hide the contradictions in your own heart. On one hand all life has value because the value in life is BEFORE you die. and we who are here before we die, by your militant atheist agenda does not value Christianity with a live and let live philosophy. In fact some very decent atheist do indeed show respect by living and let live philosophy and don't push any agenda to take away one's rights to live as they live. With such, we can live n peace with one another. Yet, you appear as not being one of the decent types as evidence by your own comments here.

BIG QUESTION IS THIS:

Why do you desire to destroy Christianity?

In Christianity, we do not desire to destroy you. Only thing we do is point out that there is real living hope in Jesus Christ that is eternal life that one can either accept or reject it. If one rejects that - then we let the one rejecting go in peace.

BIG QUESTION IS THIS:

Why do you desire to destroy Christianity?

Sorry Kenny, you do not value in life BEFORE you die in any sense of the word as you do not value us who are living as proved by how many times you have been imperfect, lied, betrayed, slandered, mock, been scheming, rejecting, abandoning, abusive, etc and etc in all manner of ways towards those folks living in this here and now. You are not perfect, you got that right!

No, you do not value life because this value is only BEFORE you die in the least.

BIG QUESTION IS THIS:

Why do you desire to destroy Christianity?

You cannot convince someone who has died, seen the afterlife reality, and returned that they didn't. No matter what proof, you will not accept it either. Neither can we convince those like yourself sold out to a way of life that has no value, no worth before or after one dies cause one day the sun implodes...

Your point of view likewise holds no value before or after you die and yet you cannot see that? In fact, all cruel tyrants get away with barbarity in your world view. There is no restraint for one to abuse your own life or your families or mine for that matter - they get away with it. A mindset that states because the value in life is BEFORE you die. cannot work, nor produce anything such as lasting human decency and dignity.

You yourself so stated that some life you do not value at all...

BIG QUESTION IS THIS:

Why do you desire to destroy Christianity?
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B. W. wrote:

Kenny wrote:...Yes! That the value in life is BEFORE you die.

Ken

You simply repeated yourself in response to me that same thing. Since all there is in this life is all there is of any value. Let me tell you, you have no value and no worth on this planet or universe at all. All arguments and debates are meaninglessness as well as the atheist position. Have you considered how meaningless you are as you assign no value to those who do not hold your views - as living beings before we die - do you?

We show respect to your opinions here, yet, you do not show the same value of respect to those living here and responding to the claims you make. This proves you do not value life as you stated: because the value in life is BEFORE you die.

Question: Why can't you live by a truly live and let live standard then?

What makes it an imperative need to crush and destroy Christianity since all is nothingness anyways?

Does this not prove your high moral superiority in error as you do not respect Christian life and point of view while touting in the same breath because the value in life is BEFORE you die?

This make your point of view hypocritical but alas since there is only nothingness and one day the sun implodes and all life here ceases anyways - guess you can get away with such hypocriticalness and contradictions. Sir, you cannot hide the contradictions in your own heart. On one hand all life has value because the value in life is BEFORE you die. and we who are here before we die, by your militant atheist agenda does not value Christianity with a live and let live philosophy. In fact some very decent atheist do indeed show respect by living and let live philosophy and don't push any agenda to take away one's rights to live as they live. With such, we can live n peace with one another. Yet, you appear as not being one of the decent types as evidence by your own comments here.

BIG QUESTION IS THIS:

Why do you desire to destroy Christianity?

In Christianity, we do not desire to destroy you. Only thing we do is point out that there is real living hope in Jesus Christ that is eternal life that one can either accept or reject it. If one rejects that - then we let the one rejecting go in peace.

BIG QUESTION IS THIS:

Why do you desire to destroy Christianity?

Sorry Kenny, you do not value in life BEFORE you die in any sense of the word as you do not value us who are living as proved by how many times you have been imperfect, lied, betrayed, slandered, mock, been scheming, rejecting, abandoning, abusive, etc and etc in all manner of ways towards those folks living in this here and now. You are not perfect, you got that right!

No, you do not value life because this value is only BEFORE you die in the least.

BIG QUESTION IS THIS:

Why do you desire to destroy Christianity?

You cannot convince someone who has died, seen the afterlife reality, and returned that they didn't. No matter what proof, you will not accept it either. Neither can we convince those like yourself sold out to a way of life that has no value, no worth before or after one dies cause one day the sun implodes...

Your point of view likewise holds no value before or after you die and yet you cannot see that? In fact, all cruel tyrants get away with barbarity in your world view. There is no restraint for one to abuse your own life or your families or mine for that matter - they get away with it. A mindset that states because the value in life is BEFORE you die. cannot work, nor produce anything such as lasting human decency and dignity.

You yourself so stated that some life you do not value at all...

BIG QUESTION IS THIS:

Why do you desire to destroy Christianity?
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During the time I've been here you have occasionally made some absurd claims, but this I believe is a new low for you; not even worth commenting on.

K