Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:30 pm**

RickD wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:These are the kinds of discussions I like on here and I've enjoyed my discussion with zacchaeus about this but I must say in defending the Gap Theory I used the word of God to back up my points so that if anybody disagreed with me,they disagreed with what God's word clearly says. I did not add anything or take away from anything it says.Review and see.

I showed by God's word life had existed before God created the plants,fish,animals,etc and Adam and Eve in Genesis 1 and it makes no difference what translation you use.This means the earth is old already.
So,
Your Gap Theory creation interpretation, is equal to scripture. Got it.

I think that I've gotten better at making a case for why I believe this is the correct interpretation and why YEC is wrong. I'm not trying to offend other old earthers who already believe the earth is old,I'm not even trying to offend young earthers either. I'm just trying to show why I believe this is true.

Posted: **Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:21 pm**

So abelcain,

Discussion over, or...???

Posted: **Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:42 pm**

I think I realize you actually think your doing justice to somehow rescue the bible from science, but science is ever-changing and self correcting. What science says today will be totally different in 10yrs, and everyone's okay when they say, well, we got it wrong. I get adhering to Scripture is tough, even when not the popular norm... And it might cause problems with science, but I rather scripture cause an issue with science, than for science to cause issue with the scriptures. Science is not the lens. Again, I feel you feel you have biblical evidence... And I'm open minded to try and study your claim of 'made after their own kind' to mean a pre-adamite race of both animal and human beings. I think that's me being beyond fair.

Posted: **Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:17 pm**

abelcainsbrother wrote:
RickD wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:These are the kinds of discussions I like on here and I've enjoyed my discussion with zacchaeus about this but I must say in defending the Gap Theory I used the word of God to back up my points so that if anybody disagreed with me,they disagreed with what God's word clearly says. I did not add anything or take away from anything it says.Review and see.

I showed by God's word life had existed before God created the plants,fish,animals,etc and Adam and Eve in Genesis 1 and it makes no difference what translation you use.This means the earth is old already.
So,
Your Gap Theory creation interpretation, is equal to scripture. Got it.
I think that I've gotten better at making a case for why I believe this is the correct interpretation and why YEC is wrong. I'm not trying to offend other old earthers who already believe the earth is old,I'm not even trying to offend young earthers either. I'm just trying to show why I believe this is true.

ACB,

The point is that we all(YEC, PC, TE) use scripture to make a case for why we hold to our creation positions. And it's our interpretation of scripture that leads us to believe what we believe. It's ironic...you're arguing against YEC by saying the bible clearly backs your position, when AIG, a YEC group says the bible clearly backs their position.

I don't understand why people can't understand that we are all fallible, and our science can be wrong, as well as our interpretation of scripture.

Posted: **Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:14 pm**

I don't understand why people can't understand that we are all fallible, and our science can be wrong, as well as our interpretation of scripture.

Absolutely! I believe the reason this is even a debate, at all, is because God wanted us to struggle with the text - perhaps to the point that we must admit the time issue is silly to get all jacked up over.

Crazy statements that are common:

"Well, Scripture CLEARLY reveals the earth to have been made in _____________ (you fill in your guess)."

"Science has proven that Scripture is __________________." (good luck with that one)

"Adam and Eve could NOT have been real people."

"The creation accounts are largely allegorical/symbolic, as science has proven ___________ (again, delusional!)

"Well if you believe the _______________ position, then you don't believe that Scripture is God-breathed."

"Moses surely understood exactly all that he wrote about the Creation accounts." (Oh, really?)

"The science on this is so overwhelming that there can be absolutely no doubt about ______________." (Thoughts of Einstein's Steady State come to mind)

"In every other place in Scripture where ___________ is used, it means ________. Therefore, it means the same here_____."

Posted: **Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:11 pm**

I never get jacked up and remember I'm in the minority here when it comes to creation interpretation but I hold my own.

Posted: **Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:26 pm**

zacchaeus wrote:I think I realize you actually think your doing justice to somehow rescue the bible from science, but science is ever-changing and self correcting. What science says today will be totally different in 10yrs, and everyone's okay when they say, well, we got it wrong. I get adhering to Scripture is tough, even when not the popular norm... And it might cause problems with science, but I rather scripture cause an issue with science, than for science to cause issue with the scriptures. Science is not the lens. Again, I feel you feel you have biblical evidence... And I'm open minded to try and study your claim of 'made after their own kind' to mean a pre-adamite race of both animal and human beings. I think that's me being beyond fair.

OK,just don't get mad over this,we've had posters leave over their creation position so don't do that. Debate is good and we can all learn from it. I've learned from all of these people on here and we don't always agree but we still can learn from one another.About there being a pre-Adamite race,yes the bible points us to that conclusion as I've shown you,but,the good thing about it is science even validates it because there are hominids who were not man,yet were real beings that once lived long before Adam and Eve. This does not cause biblical problems either like YEC's think because the first man and woman were Adam and Eve. The fossils can reveal to us the kinds of life that lived long before Adam and Eve and we can use this evidence against evolutionists too. YEC's cannot do this though because even if they refute evolution? the young earth interpretation hurts everything else they say so the best that can happen is a draw.

Posted: **Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:56 pm**

I really think debate is good and I can handle people not understanding the Gap Theory or even denying it. I look for the day when it is knowledgable Gap theorists in debates defending the Gap Theory and finally defeating and embarrassing evolutionists in debates in front of big crowds. It is going to be good to see the theory of evolution finally defeated in debates. Sure it may not change scientists minds at first but when people start seeing evolutionists defeated in debates and people stop accepting evolution for a better theory - "A former lost word" science will be forced to either actually demonstrate life evolves or give it up,only the most die-hard evolutionists will remain once the evidence is laid out,but also God's word will be confirmed which will open up people to the Gospel and this is the most important thing about the Gap Theory.The Gap Theory is the church's secret weapon against the theory of evolution and yet the church barely even knows about it.This will change once evolutionists begin being defeated in debates,finally.

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:58 am**

HI Zac, good to see you posting again.

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:10 am**

abelcainsbrother wrote:I never get jacked up and remember I'm in the minority here when it comes to creation interpretation but I hold my own.

Only in your own mind.

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:22 am**

zacchaeus wrote:I think I realize you actually think your doing justice to somehow rescue the bible from science, but science is ever-changing and self correcting. What science says today will be totally different in 10yrs, and everyone's okay when they say, well, we got it wrong. I get adhering to Scripture is tough, even when not the popular norm... And it might cause problems with science, but I rather scripture cause an issue with science, than for science to cause issue with the scriptures. Science is not the lens. Again, I feel you feel you have biblical evidence... And I'm open minded to try and study your claim of 'made after their own kind' to mean a pre-adamite race of both animal and human beings. I think that's me being beyond fair.

Yes,science is ever changing however the theory of evolution is still here after 150 years.I would not lead you or anybody wrong but it is better to have science validate what the scriptures say and science does,however you must understand that science is looking at the evidence in the earth from an evolution perspective.We must realize that secular science is never going to give the bible a chance or allow God inhto the mix,science has adopted materialism and this is the direction it is going in,even if alot of the science validates certian creation interpretations,it does'nt mean anything to science.So when we look into science we've got to take ths in consideration.So when scientists find hominids they are thinking evolution,however the hominids confirm the Gap Theory being true about a pre-Adamite race and this is not something new. I have a Dake's reference bible and it was written in the 1930's and it teaches the Gap Theory and talks about a pre-Adamite race of beings,so this is not some new idea to try to make science fit the bible,hominids were known about even then it is just that more have been discovered since then and they confirm a pre-Adamite race of bengs that lived in the former world but more importantly it confirms this interpretation. How else should we look at the hominids?They were not man and this is why evolutionists came up with the mito-Eve theory because they are different from humans.

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:00 am**

B. W. wrote:Both Isa 1:18 and Isa 41:21 bring out a very strong principle about God's character: he likes to reason with us, and for us to state our case. Other scriptures tell us to plead with him and to pray, etc, talk with him as well too.

In other words, we plead our case and in so doing, how we miss it is revealed just as K pointed out a few frames earlier here. The bible mentions these things too: 1Co 3:3, 1Co 1:11, 1Co 11:18, 2Co 12:20, Gal_5:15, James 3:16, and James 4:1-2

Strife and division in the body of Christ is bad, very bad. I find this evident in the YEC, OEC, GAP debates from all sides. Therefore, God does reason with us in ways we may at first not realize. AIG is an example of this strife and loosing of dissension that divides the body more than most. Salvation is found in the work of Christ on the cross alone that dispenses grace to the rebellious, not at all in how one interprets the creation days.

It is clear from the bible that there is such things as Days in Heaven or God's time. His ways, times, are not our ways and time. His ways are higher than ours. Even the Apostle Peter understood this in 2 Peter 3:8, "..with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." NKJV

That is a metaphor and idiom expression of God's own timeless time. Again in Rev 8:1 there is described a time that there will be silence n heaven for a half hour. How long is time in heaven? Fact is, we simply do not know?

Point of reason is this: God's timing is not ours. God created using his own time table. He created during creation days, not earth days and earth time which came into being on the 4th day of creation.

God does not ask us to toss away our reason or logic - he speaks and reason's with us. Still to this day, the logic of a 24 hour earth long day being the same as the sixth creation day is illogical. Even if Adam was Superman and Eve, Wonder woman. What occurred during that creation day could not be a 24 hour long earth day.

Even the purest of human nature argues against this so please excuse and forgive the brevity of my levity:

Adam and Eve were newlyweds.

So imagine with me for a moment that God assigned Adam the duties of tending and keeping the Garden of Eden, a huge geographic area, as well as naming animals (assessing/naming their characteristics). Then comes the hour he is put to sleep and after that Eve is before him to help out in maintaining the Garden and naming animals.. Bingo Newlyweds...

So you have during the evening hours God crating animals and Adam. During the darkness Adam naming animals as well as tending and keeping a really big garden too.Then he is operated on and Eve appears during, say, dawn. Adam see's Eve and she him... Newlyweds...

Then God says - Now now you two... there is no time for exploration, not enough time today, you both have a Garden to tend and keep plus more beast to name. So Adam go over yonder 10 furlongs and rake the leaves, and you Eve go the opposite direction 4 Furlongs and plant berry bushes. As I bring the animals to you, while you work, you name them too...

So the newlyweds depart...

While Adam is raking leaves and naming critters, he is singing like Elvis Presley while pining away for Eve:

And Eve, while planting berry bushes names a few animals:

Geeze, wish Adam was here, I can't make up my mind what to name this beast or where I should plant this bush...

So in her beast Aussie/New Zeland accent, she spots an animal and assigns its characteristics: That is a Platypus, a Wallaby, Tasmanian Devil, Echidna, Thorny Devil, Tree Kangaroo, Sugar Glider, Koala, Kangaroo, Dingo, Wombat, Quoll, Frilled Neck Lizard. Blue Tongue Lizard....

All the while she is thinking of Adam singing...

Newlyweds and God has them working due to the time constraints because there isn't enough time in the day to get the Garden raked, new bushes planted, animals named, fruit picked, talk and walk with God in the cool of the day.... before the 7th day rest starts... soon after the cool of the day ends...

Main Point:

I hope you all can see the illogical nature the 6th day of creation being a literal 24 hour earth day. Newlyweds just can't, just cannot, get much work done... expect

I know this is a bit ridiculousness example but it does engage reason... and may it cause folks to think and laugh more than argue and create division and strife...

Blessings
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I'm not trying to stir up division and strife but I must ask,where in the 6th day does it say Adam named all of the animals,etc? Let me be clear that I accept that "yom"can mean longer than a day.I don't see how anybody could deny this and I don't and it does'nt effect the Gap Theory interpretation because God is eternal so time does not hurt,however there needs to be a reason to make it apply to the 6th day. The only way I could see how it could be done is to think that in Genesis chapter 2 it is telling us what happened in the 6th day.

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:02 am**

Neo-x good times...

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:06 am**

No offense acb, I'm waiting b.w. Responses, I feel like I've too raised some eye-brow raising questions, ideas, theories, etc. It's always could to hear b.w. wisdom and intellect.

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:11 am**

zacchaeus wrote:No offense acb, I'm waiting b.w. Responses, I feel like I've too raised some eye-brow raising questions, ideas, theories, etc. It's always could to hear b.w. wisdom and intellect.

Yeah,good point.

Evidence for God from Science

Do YECs accept "ordinary days"?

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