Evidence for God from Science

Audie wrote:

RickD wrote:For those interested, here's a good article describing what a worldview is, and what one's worldview should address.
http://www.reasons.org/articles/what-in ... -worldview

A viable worldview must offer adequate answers to these questions

Ultimate Reality What kind of God, if any, actually exists?
External Reality Is there anything beyond the cosmos?
Knowledge What can be known, and how can anyone know it?
Origin Where did I come from?
Identity Who am I?
Location Where am I?
Morals How should I live?
Values What should I consider of great worth?
Predicament What is humanity's fundamental problem?
Resolution How can humanity's problem be solved?
Past / Present What is the meaning and direction of history?
Destiny Will I survive the death of my body and, if so, in what state?

"What a worldview is, from a Christian perspective"

No it's not. It's the same as the dictionary definition.

Storyteller wrote:I think it is entirely possible to choose what to believe (or not).
I used to believe in Santa.

How is there any choice there?

When you were a young, impressionable child, incapable of critical thought or rational analysis, your trusted caregivers told you about a magical elf that jumped down chimneys and distributed presents. You believed them because children are inclined to believe what their trusted caregivers tell them.

As you got older you began to notice some holes in the story. The evidence against Santa gradually accumulated until you eventually came to the realization that the story of Santa was false. Once you reached the tipping point there was no going back. No matter how hard you try, your days of believing in Santa are over. There's nothing you can do about that.

RickD wrote:

Audie wrote:

RickD wrote:For those interested, here's a good article describing what a worldview is, and what one's worldview should address.
http://www.reasons.org/articles/what-in ... -worldview

A viable worldview must offer adequate answers to these questions

Ultimate Reality What kind of God, if any, actually exists?
External Reality Is there anything beyond the cosmos?
Knowledge What can be known, and how can anyone know it?
Origin Where did I come from?
Identity Who am I?
Location Where am I?
Morals How should I live?
Values What should I consider of great worth?
Predicament What is humanity's fundamental problem?
Resolution How can humanity's problem be solved?
Past / Present What is the meaning and direction of history?
Destiny Will I survive the death of my body and, if so, in what state?

"What a worldview is, from a Christian perspective"

No it's not. It's the same as the dictionary definition.

Starting as it does with something about god, it is clearly a theist thing, if not Christian. "God" as the centre of all reality.

I dont find the definition you spoke of, I find this sort of thing.


a particular philosophy of life or conception of the world.

What dictionary hath thou chosen?

Audie wrote:

RickD wrote:

Audie wrote:

RickD wrote:For those interested, here's a good article describing what a worldview is, and what one's worldview should address.
http://www.reasons.org/articles/what-in ... -worldview

A viable worldview must offer adequate answers to these questions

Ultimate Reality What kind of God, if any, actually exists?
External Reality Is there anything beyond the cosmos?
Knowledge What can be known, and how can anyone know it?
Origin Where did I come from?
Identity Who am I?
Location Where am I?
Morals How should I live?
Values What should I consider of great worth?
Predicament What is humanity's fundamental problem?
Resolution How can humanity's problem be solved?
Past / Present What is the meaning and direction of history?
Destiny Will I survive the death of my body and, if so, in what state?

"What a worldview is, from a Christian perspective"

No it's not. It's the same as the dictionary definition.

Starting as it does with something about god, it is clearly a theist thing, if not Christian. "God" as the centre of all reality.

I dont find the definition you spoke of, I find this sort of thing.


a particular philosophy of life or conception of the world.

What dictionary hath thou chosen?

The article doesn't disagree with your definition. Maybe you missed it, so here it is again, from the article:

In the simplest terms, a worldview may be defined as how one sees life and the world at large.

And

In more technical terms, a worldview forms a mental structure that organizes one's basic or ultimate beliefs. This framework supplies a comprehensive view of what a person considers real, true, rational, good, valuable, and beautiful. In this vein, philosopher Ronald Nash defines a worldview as "a conceptual scheme by which we consciously or unconsciously place or fit everything we believe and by which we interpret and judge reality."3

Did you even read the article?

edwardmurphy wrote:

Storyteller wrote:I think it is entirely possible to choose what to believe (or not).
I used to believe in Santa.

How is there any choice there?

When you were a young, impressionable child, incapable of critical thought or rational analysis, your trusted caregivers told you about a magical elf that jumped down chimneys and distributed presents. You believed them because children are inclined to believe what their trusted caregivers tell them.

As you got older you began to notice some holes in the story. The evidence against Santa gradually accumulated until you eventually came to the realization that the story of Santa was false. Once you reached the tipping point there was no going back. No matter how hard you try, your days of believing in Santa are over. There's nothing you can do about that.

Maybe Santa was a bad example.

So do you think belief isn't a choice?
We either do or don't, that we have no control over our beliefs?

My family are not into God, or faith, in way, shape or form. By believing in Christ, I have gone against everything my parents believe.
Where does my faith come from? My belief?
Why do I believe yet you, for example, don't? Surely belief has to be a choice... I believe, you don't. I can tell you why I do, present arguments about my faith, you can do the same yet we believe different things.

RickD wrote: Did you even read the article?

The article doesn't disagree with your definition. Maybe you missed it, so here it is again, from the article:

I see. So you think the article is a dictionary.

And that was not "my" definition. It is what the dictionary (not an article) says.

You seem confused today. Perhaps some tea, and a scone?

Storyteller wrote:

edwardmurphy wrote:

Storyteller wrote:I think it is entirely possible to choose what to believe (or not).
I used to believe in Santa.

How is there any choice there?

When you were a young, impressionable child, incapable of critical thought or rational analysis, your trusted caregivers told you about a magical elf that jumped down chimneys and distributed presents. You believed them because children are inclined to believe what their trusted caregivers tell them.

As you got older you began to notice some holes in the story. The evidence against Santa gradually accumulated until you eventually came to the realization that the story of Santa was false. Once you reached the tipping point there was no going back. No matter how hard you try, your days of believing in Santa are over. There's nothing you can do about that.

Maybe Santa was a bad example.

So do you think belief isn't a choice?
We either do or don't, that we have no control over our beliefs?

My family are not into God, or faith, in way, shape or form. By believing in Christ, I have gone against everything my parents believe.
Where does my faith come from? My belief?
Why do I believe yet you, for example, don't? Surely belief has to be a choice... I believe, you don't. I can tell you why I do, present arguments about my faith, you can do the same yet we believe different things.

Psst: Choosing to believe is choosing self-deception.

Audie wrote:

Storyteller wrote:

edwardmurphy wrote:

Storyteller wrote:I think it is entirely possible to choose what to believe (or not).
I used to believe in Santa.

How is there any choice there?

When you were a young, impressionable child, incapable of critical thought or rational analysis, your trusted caregivers told you about a magical elf that jumped down chimneys and distributed presents. You believed them because children are inclined to believe what their trusted caregivers tell them.

As you got older you began to notice some holes in the story. The evidence against Santa gradually accumulated until you eventually came to the realization that the story of Santa was false. Once you reached the tipping point there was no going back. No matter how hard you try, your days of believing in Santa are over. There's nothing you can do about that.

Maybe Santa was a bad example.

So do you think belief isn't a choice?
We either do or don't, that we have no control over our beliefs?

My family are not into God, or faith, in way, shape or form. By believing in Christ, I have gone against everything my parents believe.
Where does my faith come from? My belief?
Why do I believe yet you, for example, don't? Surely belief has to be a choice... I believe, you don't. I can tell you why I do, present arguments about my faith, you can do the same yet we believe different things.

Psst: Choosing to believe is choosing self-deception.

Nu-uh.

Choosing not to believe is

Just out of interest, what exactly am I deceiving myself about, and what if I am? what if though, its the other way round?

Storyteller wrote:

Audie wrote:

Storyteller wrote:

edwardmurphy wrote:

Storyteller wrote:I think it is entirely possible to choose what to believe (or not).
I used to believe in Santa.

How is there any choice there?

When you were a young, impressionable child, incapable of critical thought or rational analysis, your trusted caregivers told you about a magical elf that jumped down chimneys and distributed presents. You believed them because children are inclined to believe what their trusted caregivers tell them.

As you got older you began to notice some holes in the story. The evidence against Santa gradually accumulated until you eventually came to the realization that the story of Santa was false. Once you reached the tipping point there was no going back. No matter how hard you try, your days of believing in Santa are over. There's nothing you can do about that.

Maybe Santa was a bad example.

So do you think belief isn't a choice?
We either do or don't, that we have no control over our beliefs?

My family are not into God, or faith, in way, shape or form. By believing in Christ, I have gone against everything my parents believe.
Where does my faith come from? My belief?
Why do I believe yet you, for example, don't? Surely belief has to be a choice... I believe, you don't. I can tell you why I do, present arguments about my faith, you can do the same yet we believe different things.

Psst: Choosing to believe is choosing self-deception.

Nu-uh.

Choosing not to believe is

Just out of interest, what exactly am I deceiving myself about, and what if I am? what if though, its the other way round?

"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
Alice in Wonderland.

Which of us is Alice?

One can REFUSE to interpret evidences in such a way as they WANT to, and that cuts both ways. I first look rationally at evidences and science that tells me that absolutely NOTHING that physically exists comes from NOTHING. Rationally, I realize that nothing self exists or is randomly intelligent or complex in information or functionality without a cause. I realize that the scale and incredible complexity, design, functionality, and that precisely JUST the right elements of what physically came into existence at the beginning of the Big Bang, had to have a cause - one of breathtaking power and intelligence. Now, that doesn't mean the Bible is true, but it matches up perfectly with what we are told - there was nothing physically existing, and then, moments later, there was, with breathtaking components, power, scale, speed, physics, chemistries - EVERYTHING needed to create a universe. I also don't think it is rational to believe that this could happen by itself, that anything non-physical (besides God) could make these awesome things burst into existence. And without some pre-existing Great Intelligence - whatever you might surmise that to be, it couldn't self-create, HAD to be intelligent beyond comprehension.

ALL of the things STUDIED through the OBSERVATIONS of how things work, in EVERY science book, except whatever preceded the Big Bang, are all about processes and causes that are secondary to what came before that point of singularity so brilliantly and powerfully began organizing "themselves." I believe in science. Even the wild theories are predicated upon some cause, and ultimately, some THING that existed. That non-existing things can become existing ones, without cause, and then brilliantly and complexly organize - this would be metaphysics - which is not science. Belief that metaphysical, uncaused things can complexly burst into existence is not belief in science - it's belief that there must be something beyond science (the study of PHYSICAL causes and effects). And even in the metaphysical realm, things would have to have a cause, even though such things are not physical.

Now, one can limit in their mind that the evidences for causes of our origins needed no cause, or that they are simply unknowable, but to dismiss God as a possibility - that is one example of a person limiting what they are willing to believe. Why? Because it's not rational to believe in such things coming into existence uncaused, without a previous cause of great power and intelligence. Anyone believing this does not do so because of science, because the Cause of the Big Bang is completely beyond any known scientific analysis or understanding of processes. And, boy, do I laugh at people whom try to dismiss God because of their irrelevant belief in evolution!

They've created their own wonderlands...

Do you guys believe we came from nothing? Are you here by accident?

No one lives in a bubble and everything we believe in or choose not to believe, affects our view on everything else to one degree or another.

One can not disassociate something like theism or atheism from how they view the world.

God can only either exist or not exist... The fact is you cannot disprove Him, doesn't mean He isn't there.

Think of a car you never saw before... (Chances are you have and just simply didn't notice it, nor pay attention). The car doesn't exist based on you not 1) owning a certain type 2) never seeing or noticing it. However, if you buy a new car you seemingly notice it 'everywhere', like an awakening, or the veil being torn off your eyes... Now you purchasing the car didn't change the probability of those same vehicles on the road nor their existence... Truth is they were already there.

Philip wrote:One can REFUSE to interpret evidences in such a way as they WANT to, and that cuts both ways. I first look rationally at evidences and science that tells me that absolutely NOTHING that physically exists comes from NOTHING. Rationally, I realize that nothing self exists or is randomly intelligent or complex in information or functionality without a cause. I realize that the scale and incredible complexity, design, functionality, and that precisely JUST the right elements of what physically came into existence at the beginning of the Big Bang, had to have a cause - one of breathtaking power and intelligence. Now, that doesn't mean the Bible is true, but it matches up perfectly with what we are told - there was nothing physically existing, and then, moments later, there was, with breathtaking components, power, scale, speed, physics, chemistries - EVERYTHING needed to create a universe. I also don't think it is rational to believe that this could happen by itself, that anything non-physical (besides God) could make these awesome things burst into existence. And without some pre-existing Great Intelligence - whatever you might surmise that to be, it couldn't self-create, HAD to be intelligent beyond comprehension.

ALL of the things STUDIED through the OBSERVATIONS of how things work, in EVERY science book, except whatever preceded the Big Bang, are all about processes and causes that are secondary to what came before that point of singularity so brilliantly and powerfully began organizing "themselves." I believe in science. Even the wild theories are predicated upon some cause, and ultimately, some THING that existed. That non-existing things can become existing ones, without cause, and then brilliantly and complexly organize - this would be metaphysics - which is not science. Belief that metaphysical, uncaused things can complexly burst into existence is not belief in science - it's belief that there must be something beyond science (the study of PHYSICAL causes and effects). And even in the metaphysical realm, things would have to have a cause, even though such things are not physical.

Now, one can limit in their mind that the evidences for causes of our origins needed no cause, or that they are simply unknowable, but to dismiss God as a possibility - that is one example of a person limiting what they are willing to believe. Why? Because it's not rational to believe in such things coming into existence uncaused, without a previous cause of great power and intelligence. Anyone believing this does not do so because of science, because the Cause of the Big Bang is completely beyond any known scientific analysis or understanding of processes. And, boy, do I laugh at people whom try to dismiss God because of their irrelevant belief in evolution!

One can also be in the position of cats discussing the origin of catfood.

I laugh at the "cats" who think that thro' philosophy they can determine for certain that the catfood god is behind it all.