Evidence for God from Science

Melanie -- your post was Long, but Very good.


There are Lots of people who Don't understand what their church teaches. Maybe their family has been 'whatever' for generations and no one ever asks Why? It's Assumed that pastors / priests know what they're talking about. After all, with all that education, why Wouldn't they know more than the average person. But we Need to know what We believe and Why. Is it the Church or God's Word. For our own spiritual / eternal life's sake.

Byblos wrote:I hear you Jac, I really do. If you go back to my earlier posts I was the first to clearly state that the doctrine is largely abused, no doubt about that. To an extent lack of education on the part of the church is also to blame. But at what point do we as believers take responsibility for our own actions and misunderstandings? That's why I always emphasize and I know you agree with me that criticism ought to be leveled at the doctrine itself, not its abuses.

As for me personally, even though I've lived in the U.S. for the better part of my life, I come from a competely different theological world where some of these so-called abuses are totally foreign to me. I made it my life's mission to not only understand other beliefs (hence my long presence here) but also to immerse myself in the doctrines of my own faith. It was either that or abandon belief altogether for nothing else made sense. So please forgive my lack of enthusiasm at the prospects of debating such topics any more, I've don't it for far too long.

I know you do, and I hear you as well. The point about our responsibility is a very important one. People who are going to level charges at the church ought to be willing to accept correction. Most, though, are not, and that just points a problem of their own. So, in my view, you can present what the church actually teaches, and if someone objects, you can and should offer an explanation; but beyond that, if the person is going to continue to mischaracterize things, then there's no need in you to continue. The simple reason is that while it is your job to be a faithful witness, it is not your job to be someone's therapist, to dig down into their objections and find out what's really going on. If they're just dishonest, it's not your job to make them honest. If they've been hurt by or have hurt feelings associated with the church, then you can't change that anyway. You can, of course, if you so choose engage in that kind of work, but it's hardly required. In the parlance, that would be extraordinary, not ordinary, right? You're obligated on the latter but not the former, and that strikes me as a pretty low bar, one you have gone well over and above in this thread.

Given all that, the point of my own thoughts above was just to recognize that you have ever reason to be frustrated with the same old debates. You have them a lot because there are a LOT of misunderstandings, and I tried to give some reasons for that. Now, it's up to Mallz and others who have objected to do what Rick as down very well I think in this thread and try to find out if their objection is leveled at what the church actually teaches or if they are just leveling their objections at a popular caricature (which may be very popular indeed!) but by and large unrelated to official doctrine. That, again, is on them. Not you. But granted that is on them, I still don't think we can blame them for making the arguments (even if they are directed at the wrong ideas) simply because that is the Catholicism they have been exposed to! It's a very nuanced faith and a LOT of people just get it wrong--some honestly, some less than honestly.

So, where in the bible is Mary given special status by Jesus or anyone else, other than the statement that she is blessed above all women?

Storyteller wrote:For what it's worth Byblos, I have the greatest respect for you and how you present your faith.

Thank you Story, it means a lot.

Storyteller wrote:Another question...

Holy Communion.

For me would be such a personal connection with Christ, yet unless I become a practising Catholic I can't receive it.
I believe that the Church can, in some cases, grant it, if certain criteria are met.
So why do I have to a practising Catholic?

Here's a link that explains it much better than I can, including possible exceptions to receiving the Eucharist.

Who can receive communion.

I had considered posting links for counter-arguments (essentially for the real presence) but I didn't want to seem as if cherry-picking so I will leave that for others.

Beyond that, if you're interested in more in-depth knowledge of Catholic doctrines, especially the sacraments, I would highly recommend a book by Ludwig Ott called "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma." In it you will find a lot of background sources for the defined dogmas as well as a certainty grading system that ranges from dogmas that must be believed down to mere opinions.

Click here for another free online source.

PaulSacramento wrote:So, where in the bible is Mary given special status by Jesus or anyone else, other than the statement that she is blessed above all women?

Honest question here, Paul . . .

What other than being blessed above all women would you need to acknowledge her having a "special status"? And when you think about the fact that, even in heaven right now Jesus is still incarnate, that Mary would still be His mother . . . isn't that pretty "special"?

Jac3510 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:So, where in the bible is Mary given special status by Jesus or anyone else, other than the statement that she is blessed above all women?

Honest question here, Paul . . .

What other than being blessed above all women would you need to acknowledge her having a "special status"? And when you think about the fact that, even in heaven right now Jesus is still incarnate, that Mary would still be His mother . . . isn't that pretty "special"?

Oh yes, no doubt.
But why go beyond that?
Jesus viewed His mother no more or no less than any other person, much like He viewed His brothers and sisters.
Sure he loved them, deeply, and His mom is and always will be His Mom, BUT he didn't give them ANY special status.
See, as a Catholic I have no problem is say that Mary is Mother of God ( since I know what I mean when I say it) or how blessed She was above other women BUT I don't offer any special status beyond that NOR do I believe we should.
I don't offer any prayers to her or anyone else besides Christ ( I don't do the rosary or hail marys).
Simply because I don't feel it is biblically correct to do so.

PaulSacramento wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:So, where in the bible is Mary given special status by Jesus or anyone else, other than the statement that she is blessed above all women?

Honest question here, Paul . . .

What other than being blessed above all women would you need to acknowledge her having a "special status"? And when you think about the fact that, even in heaven right now Jesus is still incarnate, that Mary would still be His mother . . . isn't that pretty "special"?

Oh yes, no doubt.
But why go beyond that?
Jesus viewed His mother no more or no less than any other person, much like He viewed His brothers and sisters.
Sure he loved them, deeply, and His mom is and always will be His Mom, BUT he didn't give them ANY special status.
See, as a Catholic I have no problem is say that Mary is Mother of God ( since I know what I mean when I say it) or how blessed She was above other women BUT I don't offer any special status beyond that NOR do I believe we should.
I don't offer any prayers to her or anyone else besides Christ ( I don't do the rosary or hail marys).
Simply because I don't feel it is biblically correct to do so.

Where do you stand on the communion of the saints?

Our spirits are in communion with Christ and each other, living or dead.

PaulSacramento wrote:Our spirits are in communion with Christ and each other, living or dead.

Of course.

Does that mean you're in agreement with your catholic roots that saints (and obviously I'm not referring to just Catholic saints but to all believers who are in heaven) can pray for us much like we ask our family, friends, and circle of believers here on earth to pray for us?

Byblos wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Our spirits are in communion with Christ and each other, living or dead.

Of course.

Does that mean you're in agreement with your catholic roots that saints (and obviously I'm not referring to just Catholic saints but to all believers who are in heaven) can pray for us much like we ask our family, friends, and circle of believers here on earth to pray for us?

That is a good question.
See, the bible is not 100% clear about the state of believer in death.
It likens death to sleep BUT that does NOT mean there is no consciousness in the state of death since death is likened to sleep and in sleep there is SOME awareness.

In short, I don't KNOW if the dead can intercede for us and the bible doesn't make an explicit statement on this and I don't know if the dean NEED to since we communicate directly with Christ through the HS.
So I don't know if they can and I am not sure if they "have to" BUT every little help is greatly appreciated.

As Christ is the only mediator for us, I am not sure why the dead would need to pray for us.

PaulSacramento wrote:As Christ is the only mediator for us, I am not sure why the dead would need to pray for us.

The obvious answer to that is found right here.

The more legitimate question is the ability of departed saints to know of our needs or to hear our requests for prayer.

Prayers, ALL prayers, by the living or those saints in Heaven, are intercessory. Yes, we ask others to pray for us. But we have absolutely NO idea whether those in heaven can actually hear our prayers, or if they even know the details of what happens here. But I can guarantee you that there is no special power of any one believer's prayers over those of any other Christians - whether in Heaven or on earth, and whether Mary's prayers or those of anyone else. People beseech The Virgin because they falsely have been taught that Mary's advocacy upon their behalf is a far more effective and powerful thing - which Scripture does not teach of any such role, of any such power. It DOES say that there is power in prayers of saints that pray within God's will as to what they pray for. And, BTW, ALL Christians, on earth and in Heaven, are SAINTS!!!

If the Holy Spirit intervenes with utterings we don't even know are needed, if we can boldly approach the throne of God per what Jesus completed at the Cross, why would we ever PRAY to anyone but God (plus PRAYER to anyone but God is condemned!) - ESPECIALLY having NO idea whether such prayers - or even mere requests addressed to a saint in heaven - as to whether such saints can actually hear them. And, yes, countless people do PRAY to Mary - and not just as in sending her requests for intercessory prayer! Now, I'm sure that the saints in heaven - ALL of them - do pray for those on earth. They must know that the end here has not yet come - meaning, they also know that life here is very difficult for believers and those whom will eventually come to belief. But are they aware of actual events as they unfold? Can they HEAR us/see and watch us? No one really knows the answer to these. So, teachings to beseech a Christians no longer walking the earth - these are unScriptural. And wouldn't you think that there would be just ONE example of such beseechings or prayers in Scripture? There is not even ONE! That should tell people something!

Jac3510 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:As Christ is the only mediator for us, I am not sure why the dead would need to pray for us.

The obvious answer to that is found right here.

The more legitimate question is the ability of departed saints to know of our needs or to hear our requests for prayer.

RE: the obvious answer:
I don't think there were any dead people praying for anybody in the threads on that link so I am not sure how obvious that is.
We pray for others not because we have to or because more prayers are better than less ) God hears all prayers no matter how "great" or how "small") but because we are in communion with all believers.

PaulSacramento wrote:

Byblos wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Our spirits are in communion with Christ and each other, living or dead.

Of course.

Does that mean you're in agreement with your catholic roots that saints (and obviously I'm not referring to just Catholic saints but to all believers who are in heaven) can pray for us much like we ask our family, friends, and circle of believers here on earth to pray for us?

That is a good question.
See, the bible is not 100% clear about the state of believer in death.
It likens death to sleep BUT that does NOT mean there is no consciousness in the state of death since death is likened to sleep and in sleep there is SOME awareness.

In short, I don't KNOW if the dead can intercede for us and the bible doesn't make an explicit statement on this and I don't know if the dean NEED to since we communicate directly with Christ through the HS.
So I don't know if they can and I am not sure if they "have to" BUT every little help is greatly appreciated.

As Christ is the only mediator for us, I am not sure why the dead would need to pray for us.

Because God is the God of the living, not of the dead. Be that as it may, for the same reason we ask the 'living' here on earth to pray for us, because we are a community of believers and Scripture tells us that intercessory prayer is a good thing.

In any case, it is clear that your issue is not with the Marian doctrine per se but with intercessory prayers for those who are in heaven in general. And that, by the way, is by no means indigenous to Catholicism. It is prevalent in many non-Catholic denominations.

You asked why they would need to pray for us if Christ is the only mediator. Yet you ask us to pray for you, even though Christ is the only mediator. The obvious response is that Christ being the mediator doesn't at all diminish the importance or effectiveness of intecessory prayer.

So the question is, why is it that someone who is in the very presence of Christ, why would their prayers suddenly no longer be effective then if their prayers were effective when they were separated from Him in this life? How does being closer to Him make their intercession less effective?

However you answer that, again, my point is that reminding us that Christ is the only mediator completely and totally unrelated to the question of whether or not their prayers are effective, helpful, or necessary.