The Delusion of "Free Will"

[Justhuman]

Let me begin with me not knowing anything about God's plan, nor did I write anything of that kind.
That being written, I can accept that whithin God's realm there can be true free will, providing He doesn't mingle too much in our lives.

But to what purpose did God create us? Not to give Him some company, admiration and love. To become a child of God? To live (for the lucky ones) an eternity in a never-changing heaven? Forever loving, happy and joyfull, and no pain, no tears, etc...?

'We' wouldn't be human anymore, because all that pain and such makes us who we are. Who we become.

And why is living in a materialistic universe 'pointless'? Meaningless?

[Philip]

JustHuman: I can accept that within God's realm there can be true free will, providing He doesn't mingle too much in our lives.

Actually, if God gives us ANY freedom to decide ANYTHING for ourselves, then that is a measure of free will. But although our free will given provides us a wide measure of freedom, it still isn't unlimited. If it was unlimited, man - the worst and evil amongst us - would have been able to bring destruction upon the entire planet. Our evil ways are restricted, and are only allowed for a time (this lifetime). Having a severe deficit in knowledge, and being sinful creatures, out limitations, so imposed, are a GOOD and merciful thing!

JustHuman: But to what purpose did God create us? Not to give Him some company, admiration and love.

As for "company, admiration and love" - no, He does not NEED those things. God is complete within His fellowship within the Trinity. He has no deficits of which new creations would make Him more satisfied, happier, more complete, etc. - these are human pursuits. God is a creative Being Who loves to create. He created us because that is what He wanted to do. But the magnificence is, for those saved, we, though created "things," will be more extraordinary that we can ever imagine. So, God is a creator of incredible things - whether transforming the sullied (per sin), or creating the beautiful things "from scratch" (from nothingness).

JustHuman: To become a child of God? To live (for the lucky ones) an eternity in a never-changing heaven?

There is NO luck involved! God specifically placed people in time and geographic place, family circumstances, so that those so willing would become saved. However God decides to initiate and complete that salvation with those who will not permanently resist Him. There is a God-given choice that all men can make (per their free will) - they can seek God, or they can run from Him (and creating man-made religion and gods is another "clever" initiative of man designed to create gods they are comfortable with serving - or rather, that ultimately are thought to serve the spiritual needs of the creature. The REAL God desires man serve Him. But HE is the One Who leads such understandings of Himself, from His loving nature. Before God created man, He knew all about the Crucifixion and suffering He would one day do for man (actually, He's ALWAYS known of that). He created a world that has an ability to reject Him - and it's the very same world He (Jesus) subjected Himself to.

JustHuman: And why is living in a materialistic universe 'pointless'? Meaningless?

Because one cannot know true peace or contentment through material things. We were created with a part of our being that would feel and sense a growing incompleteness, restlessness and dissatisfaction without a relationship with God to fill that emptiness. We can seek all manner of materialism, sensuality - all those things - and still be miserable and unfulfilled in our spirit. We were created to seek God. Why do so many people society admires - the amazingly beautiful, wealthy and successful, so often commit suicide, ruin their lives would chemicals or alcohol, state they are so unhappy? Because they bought into the lie that some level of desired "things" will make them fulfilled. And then they get achieve such things, and realize it's all one big lie. And once they realize that - they often just try different, subsequent "things" - yet with the same resulting misery. Once they realize they cannot become at peace, these things become meaningless, constant reminders that there is not peace to be had through such pursuits.

And the older people get, the more they begin to realize that there will be a day of either decline or some sudden end - in which the best things of this world will either go away for them (their health and youth, material things, etc.), with nothing to look forward to but decline or an end - and often a slow and difficult one. So, for many, they just try to "party to the end" - looking for comfort amongst "stuff." Or they medicate themselves to cope. Before, they'd always looked for some future accomplishments or things they wanted to obtain or do - and then they begin to realize such things will never happen. And so, they lose hope for anything of meaning to themselves spiritually. You can't fill that emptiness successfully except with one thing: God! Those who learn this lesson and seek God have gained wisdom. The rest try to ignore there is a lesson to be learned - or, they just tell themselves, they just don't have all the right "stuff" yet. But "stuff, wealth, fun, sex" - these ultimately turn out to be futile distractions that don't solve the problem.

[Justhuman]

Because one cannot know true peace or contentment through material things. We were created with a part of our being that would feel and sense a growing incompleteness, restlessness and dissatisfaction without a relationship with God to fill that emptiness.

You are answering my question from a theistic point of view, that won't work. When I try to understand your reasoning I try to understand it from your (not specifically yours, but generally speaking) theistic point of view, and yes, it may take some time for me to see that it makes sense (mostly, sometimes it doesn't).

Presume, for example I'm right in my Materialistic universe, do you think you will feel less? Do you suddenly stop feeling love and caring for your wife, children, pets, etc? Can't you be happy anymore, unable to admire the wonders of nature?
Does the world end?

... Because one cannot know true peace or contentment through material things...

I really do not understand why that's impossible. Or maybe I'm mistaken by your use of 'material things', which is something different than a 'materialistic universe'. In fact they are something totally different.

[Philip]

JustHuman: Presume, for example I'm right in my Materialistic universe, do you think you will feel less? Do you suddenly stop feeling love and caring for your wife, children, pets, etc? Can't you be happy anymore, unable to admire the wonders of nature? Does the world end?

Of course there is a level of satisfaction in certain things. But that level of satisfaction is fleeting and totally dependent upon continuity of such things. Take them away, you have no hope or joy - for now or for eternity. And that temporary contentment is out of one's hands to sustain. After the props fade or go away, life begins to wind down, where is there any reason for hope for better - or BEYOND? It's a bleak thing. And many people reach some supposed envious pinnacle, only to realize they are yet miserable - and for good reason.

Philip wrote: ... Because one cannot know true peace or contentment through material things...

JustHuman: I really do not understand why that's impossible. Or maybe I'm mistaken by your use of 'material things', which is something different than a 'materialistic universe'. In fact they are something totally different.

Material things are all things that can go away in an instant - or in a slow, agonizing slide. They are ALL temporary - and they remove all hope once gone. Wise people realize this way before such things are gone. Realizing what God offers you, and not doing all you can to pursue Him, to seek Him out - even if you think He's a mere figment of people's deluded imaginations - why would you not seek Him out in a sincere and diligent way? You know, just in case you might happen to be wrong, in your believe that He doesn't exist?

[Justhuman]

JustHuman: Presume, for example I'm right in my Materialistic universe, do you think you will feel less? Do you suddenly stop feeling love and caring for your wife, children, pets, etc? Can't you be happy anymore, unable to admire the wonders of nature? Does the world end?

Of course there is a level of satisfaction in certain things. But that level of satisfaction is fleeting and totally dependent upon continuity of such things. Take them away, you have no hope or joy - for now or for eternity. And that temporary contentment is out of one's hands to sustain. After the props fade or go away, life begins to wind down, where is there any reason for hope for better - or BEYOND? It's a bleak thing. And many people reach some supposed envious pinnacle, only to realize they are yet miserable - and for good reason.

And what if you do not take them away? Why should you take them away?
Take away God and your live would be empty too.

Philip wrote: ... Because one cannot know true peace or contentment through material things...

JustHuman: I really do not understand why that's impossible. Or maybe I'm mistaken by your use of 'material things', which is something different than a 'materialistic universe'. In fact they are something totally different.

Material things are all things that can go away in an instant - or in a slow, agonizing slide. They are ALL temporary - and they remove all hope once gone. Wise people realize this way before such things are gone. Realizing what God offers you, and not doing all you can to pursue Him, to seek Him out - even if you think He's a mere figment of people's deluded imaginations - why would you not seek Him out in a sincere and diligent way? You know, just in case you might happen to be wrong, in your believe that He doesn't exist?

Please explain what you mean by "and they remove all hope once gone". What's hope got to do with it?
"... why would you not seek Him out in a sincere and diligent way?" Because He doesn't exist?

[Philip]

Philip: Of course there is a level of satisfaction in certain things. But that level of satisfaction is fleeting and totally dependent upon continuity of such things. Take them away, you have no hope or joy - for now or for eternity. And that temporary contentment is out of one's hands to sustain. After the props fade or go away, life begins to wind down, where is there any reason for hope for better - or BEYOND? It's a bleak thing. And many people reach some supposed envious pinnacle, only to realize they are yet miserable - and for good reason.

JustHuman: And what if you do not take them away? Why should you take them away?

It's not a matter of YOU taking fleeting pleasures away - of course people cling to such things. Its a matter that material things do not bring fulfillment, they bring fleeting pleasures. And even those, one does not control whether they remain or stay - THINGS can be gone in moment. Health - everyone, at some point, will lose their robust health, and often linger in whatever difficult circumstances. ALL of these things, we don't control, and they can't make one fulfilled or content, with some sense that "there must be something more." And there IS!

JustHuman: Take away God and your live would be empty too.

Absolutely - very true!

Philip wrote: ... Because one cannot know true peace or contentment through material things...

JustHuman: I really do not understand why that's impossible. Or maybe I'm mistaken by your use of 'material things', which is something different than a 'materialistic universe'. In fact they are something totally different.

Material things are all things that were created and that will one day no longer exist - or at least no for a given person.

JustHuman: Material things are all things that can go away in an instant - or in a slow, agonizing slide. They are ALL temporary - and they remove all hope once gone. Wise people realize this way before such things are gone. Realizing what God offers you, and not doing all you can to pursue Him, to seek Him out - even if you think He's a mere figment of people's deluded imaginations - why would you not seek Him out in a sincere and diligent way? You know, just in case you might happen to be wrong, in your belief that He doesn't exist?

You ignored by questions immediately above - particularly the words in bold.

JustHuman: Please explain what you mean by "and they remove all hope once gone". What's hope got to do with it?

If one's hope is in fleeting, temporary things, or situations and circumstances that turn ugly, devoid of any hope that the pleasures that one once got from them will likely no longer be available to them - well, that is the only hope and pleasure many people ever have in life - from things that can ultimately go away, and yet, that doesn't and can't fulfill or bring contentment. And so, when such things go away, even the small pleasures they bring, will be no more. What is there to hope for, if not for those simple pleasures? When one's health is failing, knowing there will only be more and more decline and difficulty - where's one's hope? If you were bed ridden with a week to live, but suddenly you inherited a million dollars - would you truly care?

JustHuman: "... why would you not seek Him out in a sincere and diligent way?" Because He doesn't exist?

Doesn't the even the possibility that God "might' exist spur your curiosity? Why wouldn't you want to know if He exists? What have you done to find out? If there is an awesome hope for an incredible eternity beyond this sinking ship - I'd think you'd be interested in finding out the truth of the matter? Or maybe that's why you're here?

[Justhuman]

If one's hope is in fleeting, temporary things, or situations and circumstances that turn ugly, devoid of any hope that the pleasures that one once got from them will likely no longer be available to them - well, that is the only hope and pleasure many people ever have in life - from things that can ultimately go away, and yet, that doesn't and can't fulfill or bring contentment. And so, when such things go away, even the small pleasures they bring, will be no more. What is there to hope for, if not for those simple pleasures? When one's health is failing, knowing there will only be more and more decline and difficulty - where's one's hope? If you were bed ridden with a week to live, but suddenly you inherited a million dollars - would you truly care?

My 'hope' isn't in those things you write. Those things are to me just what they are, not less, no more. It is the reallity, accept them or... believe in God(?).

You state that "... doesn't and can't fulfill or bring contentment.", but it is not up to you to conclude that for anyone else but yourself.

With the last question you asked: would you- as a Day-Age believer- care about inherriting a million dollars (euros) a week before your knowing to die? As for me I don't know, I've never been in such a situation, and hope never will.

Doesn't the even the possibility that God "might' exist spur your curiosity? Why wouldn't you want to know if He exists? What have you done to find out? If there is an awesome hope for an incredible eternity beyond this sinking ship - I'd think you'd be interested in finding out the truth of the matter? Or maybe that's why you're here?

Of course there might be a possibility that God exists, but I think/feel He doesn't.
I could ask you the counterquestion about God cq materialistic universe.

And I'm here because someone stated that atheists are irrational. I found that untrue, and still do.

[Philip]

JustHuman: And I'm here because someone stated that atheists are irrational. I found that untrue, and still do.

Where do you think all physical things and their designs came from? "Poof" - by magic?

Again, when I speak of a lack of hope - I"m speaking of a hope that there is a God who loves us that has power beyond our circumstances and plain, dumb luck. I'm speaking of a hope that means a Christian's last day on the planet - however miserable that might be - the moment afterward will be the best he's ever experienced - AND, there will be no end to that. Now THAT is hope! It's hope that transcends our own failures and limitations, even our own mortality. That's the kind of hope I'm speaking of.

[Justhuman]

JustHuman: And I'm here because someone stated that atheists are irrational. I found that untrue, and still do.

Where do you think all physical things and their designs came from? "Poof" - by magic?

Again, when I speak of a lack of hope - I"m speaking of a hope that there is a God who loves us that has power beyond our circumstances and plain, dumb luck. I'm speaking of a hope that means a Christian's last day on the planet - however miserable that might be - the moment afterward will be the best he's ever experienced - AND, there will be no end to that. Now THAT is hope! It's hope that transcends our own failures and limitations, even our own mortality. That's the kind of hope I'm speaking of.

There is no (intelligent) design involved. If something cannot come from nothing, then that something had to be already there. Maybe not in our current material form, but then as a pre-something.

My hope is that the human race will eventually overcome its petty strugling and become a true united intelligent race. Not only on this Earth, but also farther out in space , because our planet is limited in it's capacity.
My hope is that, when I die, I've made some positive contribution to the future of this world. To be rembered well by those who rember me. And that I did most things on my bucketlist.

I do not need to live 'forever happily everafter in some state of limbo'. I do not want that either, for I wouldn't be me anymore. Learning, progress, development, change, is what makes life. Take away that and what remains is an boring everlasting shadow of yourself. And eternity is a long, long, long, etc... time.

[Nessa]

JustHuman: And I'm here because someone stated that atheists are irrational. I found that untrue, and still do.

Where do you think all physical things and their designs came from? "Poof" - by magic?

Again, when I speak of a lack of hope - I"m speaking of a hope that there is a God who loves us that has power beyond our circumstances and plain, dumb luck. I'm speaking of a hope that means a Christian's last day on the planet - however miserable that might be - the moment afterward will be the best he's ever experienced - AND, there will be no end to that. Now THAT is hope! It's hope that transcends our own failures and limitations, even our own mortality. That's the kind of hope I'm speaking of.

There is no (intelligent) design involved. If something cannot come from nothing, then that something had to be already there. Maybe not in our current material form, but then as a pre-something.

My hope is that the human race will eventually overcome its petty strugling and become a true united intelligent race. Not only on this Earth, but also farther out in space , because our planet is limited in it's capacity.
My hope is that, when I die, I've made some positive contribution to the future of this world. To be rembered well by those who rember me. And that I did most things on my bucketlist.

I do not need to live 'forever happily everafter in some state of limbo'. I do not want that either, for I wouldn't be me anymore. Learning, progress, development, change, is what makes life. Take away that and what remains is an boring everlasting shadow of yourself. And eternity is a long, long, long, etc... time.

The eternity that you speak of does not exist

[Justhuman]

JustHuman: And I'm here because someone stated that atheists are irrational. I found that untrue, and still do.

Where do you think all physical things and their designs came from? "Poof" - by magic?

Again, when I speak of a lack of hope - I"m speaking of a hope that there is a God who loves us that has power beyond our circumstances and plain, dumb luck. I'm speaking of a hope that means a Christian's last day on the planet - however miserable that might be - the moment afterward will be the best he's ever experienced - AND, there will be no end to that. Now THAT is hope! It's hope that transcends our own failures and limitations, even our own mortality. That's the kind of hope I'm speaking of.

There is no (intelligent) design involved. If something cannot come from nothing, then that something had to be already there. Maybe not in our current material form, but then as a pre-something.

My hope is that the human race will eventually overcome its petty strugling and become a true united intelligent race. Not only on this Earth, but also farther out in space , because our planet is limited in it's capacity.
My hope is that, when I die, I've made some positive contribution to the future of this world. To be rembered well by those who rember me. And that I did most things on my bucketlist.

I do not need to live 'forever happily everafter in some state of limbo'. I do not want that either, for I wouldn't be me anymore. Learning, progress, development, change, is what makes life. Take away that and what remains is an boring everlasting shadow of yourself. And eternity is a long, long, long, etc... time.

The eternity that you speak of does not exist

Nevertheless that is what is spoken about.

[Nessa]

JustHuman: And I'm here because someone stated that atheists are irrational. I found that untrue, and still do.

Where do you think all physical things and their designs came from? "Poof" - by magic?

Again, when I speak of a lack of hope - I"m speaking of a hope that there is a God who loves us that has power beyond our circumstances and plain, dumb luck. I'm speaking of a hope that means a Christian's last day on the planet - however miserable that might be - the moment afterward will be the best he's ever experienced - AND, there will be no end to that. Now THAT is hope! It's hope that transcends our own failures and limitations, even our own mortality. That's the kind of hope I'm speaking of.

There is no (intelligent) design involved. If something cannot come from nothing, then that something had to be already there. Maybe not in our current material form, but then as a pre-something.

My hope is that the human race will eventually overcome its petty strugling and become a true united intelligent race. Not only on this Earth, but also farther out in space , because our planet is limited in it's capacity.
My hope is that, when I die, I've made some positive contribution to the future of this world. To be rembered well by those who rember me. And that I did most things on my bucketlist.

I do not need to live 'forever happily everafter in some state of limbo'. I do not want that either, for I wouldn't be me anymore. Learning, progress, development, change, is what makes life. Take away that and what remains is an boring everlasting shadow of yourself. And eternity is a long, long, long, etc... time.

The eternity that you speak of does not exist

Nevertheless that is what is spoken about.

Spoken about where and by whom?

[Justhuman]

Where do you think all physical things and their designs came from? "Poof" - by magic?

Again, when I speak of a lack of hope - I"m speaking of a hope that there is a God who loves us that has power beyond our circumstances and plain, dumb luck. I'm speaking of a hope that means a Christian's last day on the planet - however miserable that might be - the moment afterward will be the best he's ever experienced - AND, there will be no end to that. Now THAT is hope! It's hope that transcends our own failures and limitations, even our own mortality. That's the kind of hope I'm speaking of.

There is no (intelligent) design involved. If something cannot come from nothing, then that something had to be already there. Maybe not in our current material form, but then as a pre-something.

My hope is that the human race will eventually overcome its petty strugling and become a true united intelligent race. Not only on this Earth, but also farther out in space , because our planet is limited in it's capacity.
My hope is that, when I die, I've made some positive contribution to the future of this world. To be rembered well by those who rember me. And that I did most things on my bucketlist.

I do not need to live 'forever happily everafter in some state of limbo'. I do not want that either, for I wouldn't be me anymore. Learning, progress, development, change, is what makes life. Take away that and what remains is an boring everlasting shadow of yourself. And eternity is a long, long, long, etc... time.

The eternity that you speak of does not exist

Nevertheless that is what is spoken about.

Spoken about where and by whom?

Well... It's not here that they've used the word 'eternity', that's my interpretion. And I certainly won't point my finger at someone accusing them of this-and-that.

Am I wrong that God's kingdom doesn't last forever? That all the saved souls will 'end' sometime? Truly, truly die?

[Philip]

JustHuman: Am I wrong that God's kingdom doesn't last forever? That all the saved souls will 'end' sometime? Truly, truly die?

Absolutely wrong! ALL people will live forever - those saved via faith in God/Jesus will forever live in Paradise - the (still-to-come) restored/new earth and heaven merged, with Him. The rest, those who will die in permanent rebellion, and forever refuse to believe/have faith/commit to God - they will live forever separated from Him, in varying levels of punishment. It matters not if such people eternally separated followed the wrong God, assert they didn't know, didn't search, didn't care - WHATEVER the reason for their unbelief, ultimately they permanently refuse the have faith in Christ. In fact, it is our promise of ETERNAL life WITH GOD that gives the Christian a hope that transcends all temporary hope in things that can go or be taken away from them - things that can't ultimately satisfy the emptiness of one's spiritual vacuum. NO one's physical death ends them as a person / a living spirit - for the Christian, there will be a new body, a heavenly body that their spirit will take on - as one puts on a coat, their spirit will be encased in a new body. Presently, our bodies are corrupted and decaying, every day closer to the inevitable end of their mortal lives - but that is but the first death, for those unsaved.

[Nessa]

There is no (intelligent) design involved. If something cannot come from nothing, then that something had to be already there. Maybe not in our current material form, but then as a pre-something.

My hope is that the human race will eventually overcome its petty strugling and become a true united intelligent race. Not only on this Earth, but also farther out in space , because our planet is limited in it's capacity.
My hope is that, when I die, I've made some positive contribution to the future of this world. To be rembered well by those who rember me. And that I did most things on my bucketlist.

I do not need to live 'forever happily everafter in some state of limbo'. I do not want that either, for I wouldn't be me anymore. Learning, progress, development, change, is what makes life. Take away that and what remains is an boring everlasting shadow of yourself. And eternity is a long, long, long, etc... time.

The eternity that you speak of does not exist

Nevertheless that is what is spoken about.

Spoken about where and by whom?

Well... It's not here that they've used the word 'eternity', that's my interpretion. And I certainly won't point my finger at someone accusing them of this-and-that.

Am I wrong that God's kingdom doesn't last forever? That all the saved souls will 'end' sometime? Truly, truly die?

Eternity exists. But I dont believe your interpretation of it is correct.