"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
PL, I think the Barber illustration answers these questions rather well.puritan lad wrote:Jac and B.W.
Two more questions that I'm addressing, and would like to get your responses on before I proceed.
1.) Are angels predestined? Do they have free will? (B.W. has already addressed this, but I would like to give him the opportunity to clarify his stance.)
2.) Can we sin in heaven? Will we still have "free will", or we will be "spiritual robots"?
I'll bring up more as I write this...
God Bless,
PL
How can man's will be free regarding what you have stated below? Also, no one that I can tell involved responding to you is teaching that man can beg his way into heaven or that God is a slave to human free will. Contrary, I wrote that God does Violate human free will everyday. If God did not - no one could be saved.puritan lad wrote: The Myth of Libertarian Free Will (and objections answered)
Man's will is no cure for the sinful nature, but is instead the cause. Man's will has been corrupted by the Fall, and therefore, must be redeemed along with the rest off our wicked selves. Even the most basic philosopher quickly learns that man's will is neither libertarian nor autonomous. It is a secondary entity which depends on many things. The very definition is a rational person is one whose will is under the control of reason and rational thinking. To be "free" from such would make one insane. Wills are controlled by emotions, love, hate, anger, sadness, etc. Diseases can affect wills. Drug addicts "freely" partake in the substance that enslaves them, a perfect illustration of man's willing slavery to sin, but slavery nonetheless. Every part of man has been spiritually killed by the fall. He is totally depraved, and will be condemned forever unless God intervene on His behalf. For, "he that believeth not, is condemned already..." (John 3:18).
The weak "free will" philosophy has taken over modern evangelism. Instead of preaching "Good News", we have limited ourselves to "good advice". We plead for men to come to a begging Christ, who is standing on the sidelines just hoping that the wicked sinner can muster up enough faith of his own resources to let Jesus save him. Oddly enough, most Christians who preach this doctrine won't hesitate to pray for God to "save" lost loved ones, even though they teach that " God is a gentleman, who will never violate our free-will" (see Psalm 33:10-12). As John Owen pointed out in his chapter "The Idol of Free-will", man's will is not "free" until the Son makes him free. (John 8:36). Man's will is free only in the sense that he does what he wants to do...
So you are stating that God engineers human decisions to make the wrong choices. Hence the Drug addict is not responsible for his act as every act of man is decreed of God therefore God does not force man to sin yet he direct our steps? Man has enough sin in himself yet who put it there if what you say below is true?puritan lad wrote: Isaiah tells us that God "hast wrought all our works for us." (Isaiah 26:12). With regard to the continued attempt to deify man's will, Stephen Charnock asks, "But what if the foreknowledge of God, and the liberty of the will cannot be reconciled by man? Shall we therefore deny a perfection in God to support a liberty in ourselves? Shall we rather fasten ignorance upon God, and accuse Him of blindness to maintain our liberty?"
The fact that God predestines all the works of man is offensive to the rebellious human heart, but cannot be denied from the Scriptures. God decrees and wills all things that have been and will ever be, “Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,” (Isaiah 46:10). God controls the steps (Jer. 10:23) and words of man (Prov. 16:1) as well as heart of a king (Prov. 21:1). In God “we live, and move, and have our being,” (Acts 17:28). He "upholds all things by the word of his power,” (Heb. 1:3), that not even a sparrow falls to the ground without the will of his Father (Matt. 10:29). God fashioned the days of man, before they ever existed (Psalm 139:16). This is the God of the Bible, not the poor helpless being who sits on some distant throne hoping that His people will use their "free will" and let Him save them.
How does God decrees and work in the sinful acts of wicked men without being the author of sin (James 1:13)? The answer is that God does not force man to sin. He doesn't have to. While "in Him is no darkness" (1 John 1:5), man has enough sin in himself to accomplish all the evil that God could ever decree, for when a person sins, "each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed, afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death." (James 1:14-15). All God has to do is withhold grace, and "[deliver] them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient..." (Romans 1:28). This is what man's "free will" profits him. While God Himself is not the tempter, but He does send evil and lying Spirits to accomplish these acts (See 1 Kings 22:19-23; 1 Sam 16:14-23, 1 Sam 18:10, 1 Sam 19:9). God is said to "lay a stumbling block to make men fall" (Romans 9:33) and "send strong delusion, that they should believe lies," (2 These. 2:11). It is God alone who "hast set them in slippery places, and cast them down into desolation. How suddenly are they destroyed, perished and horribly consumed..." (Psalm 73:18-19). Thus, God can decree even man's evil deeds, and work to bring them to pass, yet man's sin remains man's own, and he is fully responsible for them.
2.) How does a god who does all things according to his good pleasure take pleasure in creating people, engineering their decision to make the wrong choice regarding the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thereby causing sin and spiritual death to come into the world, resulting in his picking some of these people to be saved and the rest going to hell...which was all his predetermined plan?....
Irreconcilable Contradiction - is it not?puritan lad wrote:The fact that God predestines all the works of man is offensive to the rebellious human heart, but cannot be denied from the Scriptures. God decrees and wills all things that have been and will ever be, “Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,” (Isaiah 46:10). God controls the steps (Jer. 10:23) and words of man (Prov. 16:1) as well as heart of a king (Prov. 21:1). In God “we live, and move, and have our being,” (Acts 17:28). He "upholds all things by the word of his power,” (Heb. 1:3), that not even a sparrow falls to the ground without the will of his Father (Matt. 10:29). God fashioned the days of man, before they ever existed (Psalm 139:16)...
So according to your position - it has just proved that God is the author of sin and evil and thus causes God to deny all that he is. Any who points out the error of your doctrine is shouted as a wast of time and effort to silence your critics... Hmm... Not so...puritan lad wrote:That's a good question. The short answer is, “I don't know”. The Bible never tells why God predestines the sinful acts of the wicked, nor does it tell us on what basis He predestines and elects. Mountains of scholarly ink have been wasted in an effort to describe the secret things that belong to the Lord (Deut. 29:29).. All we know for sure, according to the Scriptures, is that God does predestine, and that He does so independent of man's choices (for He did so before man ever had a choice). Romans 9:23 gives us a possible glimpse as to why God creates “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction”, “that he might declare the riches of his glory upon the vessels of mercy, which he hath prepared unto glory”. This seems to be validated in His words to Pharaoh, “"For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (Romans 9:17). In the end, God has one main goal and purpose, and that is to glorify Himself. God gets glory out of the salvation of His people, and He gets glory out of the destruction of the wicked. Calvinism is a thoroughly God-Centered theology which strips man of everything, allowing him to take glory in nothing. Everything that happens is part of God's predetermined plan, including our trials and tragedies. David Chilton explains, "The Biblical doctrine of predestination, when rightly understood, should not be a source of fear for the Christian; rather, it is a source of comfort and assurance. The opposite of the doctrine of predestination is not freedom, but meaninglessness; if the smallest details of our lives are not part of the Plan of God, if they are not created facts with a divinely determined significance, then they can have no meaning at all. They cannot be "working together for good." But the Christian who understands the truth of God's sovereignty is assured thereby that nothing in his life is without meaning and purpose — that God has ordained all things for His glory and for our ultimate good. This means that even our sufferings are part of a consistent Plan; that when we are opposed, we need not fear that God has abandoned us. We can be secure in the knowledge that, since we have been "called according to His purpose" (Romans 8:28), all things in our life are a necessary aspect of that purpose. Martin Luther said: "It is, then, fundamentally necessary and wholesome for Christians to know that God foreknows nothing contingently, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His own immutable, eternal and infallible will. . . . For the Christian's chief and only comfort in adversity lies in knowing that God does not lie, but brings all things to pass immutably, and that His will cannot be resisted, altered or impeded".
Besides, if God does not predestine everything that happens, then what else is left besides undesigned chance or blind fate? Romans 8:29 tells us that God predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his Son. Why? "That He might be the firstborn among many brethren". Yet if this predestination was "contingent" upon human freedom, then how could the Father be sure that His Son would be the firstborn of many brethren?
The precious blood as promised will save all who believe in Him.PL wrote:If what you say is true, then it would be entirely possible for the precious blood of Jesus to have saved no one.
It is inescapable that God at the very least by allowance is responsible for sin. Omnipotence does not allow for any form of dualism. The one who has the power to eliminate or prevent evil and allows it to remain, is by definition responsible for it.FFC wrote:Besides, if God does not predestine everything that happens, then what else is left besides undesigned chance or blind fate? Romans 8:29 tells us that God predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his Son. Why? "That He might be the firstborn among many brethren". Yet if this predestination was "contingent" upon human freedom, then how could the Father be sure that His Son would be the firstborn of many brethren?
Because God is outside of time and space and sees everything from the beginning to the end. God is working in the lives of all his creatures everyday. He didn't just make a plan and then sit back and watch how it turns out. The plan of salvation was predestined from the foundation of the world through Christ. The plan being that Christ in obedience of God would offer Himself as the means to reconciliation to Him. The result is that all who would believe are promised eternal life. Christ's death on the cross was not ineffectual and He did not fail. In his love and mercy He gives everyone the ability to choose. This is the act of a God who is not only sovereign, but merciful, just and loving.
The precious blood as promised will save all who believe in Him.PL wrote:If what you say is true, then it would be entirely possible for the precious blood of Jesus to have saved no one.
PL, On a side note, I've finally gotten through book I of Owens book. I am thoroughly enjoying it. I really can see how you believe what you do. I am just not convinced yet that God is the author of Salvation as well as sin. Bear with me and know that I am not attacking your beliefs, just questioning...sometimes in the form of statements.
God bless
Yes Bart... well said... That is the million dollar question. Athough I'm not a direct fan of mystery, is it a cop out to say that we really don't know sometimes or does it impede our direct understanding of certain Biblical truths?Canuckster1127 wrote:The question is, at what point do you make that assertion and embrace an element of mystery by faith? Extremes exist at either end of the spectrum which carry their own dangers and excesses.
That, in my opinion, is really the underlying issue in the tension between Sovereignty and Free Will. On some issues they are mutually exclusive and must be.
It's not enough to simply proof-text concepts and build a framework. There has to be an underlying hermeneutic that eminates from the Scripture itself that ties it altogether upon which you derive the framework itself.
That's where I am on it anyway. It is not a particularly satisfying answer for many and there is a danger that standing on mystery can become a crutch to avoid what Scripture does reveal in this area that is within our grasp and should be wrestled with.
I think it is not a cop out at some point to say, "I don't know."Gman wrote:Yes Bart... well said... That is the million dollar question. Athough I'm not a direct fan of mystery, is it a cop out to say that we really don't know sometimes or does it impede our direct understanding of certain Biblical truths?Canuckster1127 wrote:The question is, at what point do you make that assertion and embrace an element of mystery by faith? Extremes exist at either end of the spectrum which carry their own dangers and excesses.
That, in my opinion, is really the underlying issue in the tension between Sovereignty and Free Will. On some issues they are mutually exclusive and must be.
It's not enough to simply proof-text concepts and build a framework. There has to be an underlying hermeneutic that eminates from the Scripture itself that ties it altogether upon which you derive the framework itself.
That's where I am on it anyway. It is not a particularly satisfying answer for many and there is a danger that standing on mystery can become a crutch to avoid what Scripture does reveal in this area that is within our grasp and should be wrestled with.
(now don't everybody laugh...).FFC wrote:Besides, if God does not predestine everything that happens, then what else is left besides undesigned chance or blind fate? Romans 8:29 tells us that God predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his Son. Why? "That He might be the firstborn among many brethren". Yet if this predestination was "contingent" upon human freedom, then how could the Father be sure that His Son would be the firstborn of many brethren?
Because God is outside of time and space and sees everything from the beginning to the end. God is working in the lives of all his creatures everyday. He didn't just make a plan and then sit back and watch how it turns out. The plan of salvation was predestined from the foundation of the world through Christ. The plan being that Christ in obedience of God would offer Himself as the means to reconciliation to Him. The result is that all who would believe are promised eternal life. Christ's death on the cross was not ineffectual and He did not fail. In his love and mercy He gives everyone the ability to choose. This is the act of a God who is not only sovereign, but merciful, just and loving.
The precious blood as promised will save all who believe in Him.PL wrote:If what you say is true, then it would be entirely possible for the precious blood of Jesus to have saved no one.
PL, On a side note, I've finally gotten through book I of Owens book. I am thoroughly enjoying it. I really can see how you believe what you do. I am just not convinced yet that God is the author of Salvation as well as sin. Bear with me and know that I am not attacking your beliefs, just questioning...sometimes in the form of statements.
God bless
FFC wrote:Besides, if God does not predestine everything that happens, then what else is left besides undesigned chance or blind fate? Romans 8:29 tells us that God predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his Son. Why? "That He might be the firstborn among many brethren". Yet if this predestination was "contingent" upon human freedom, then how could the Father be sure that His Son would be the firstborn of many brethren?
Sorry to break in here again, but I think this is one of Bart's higher-beam shots... I just haven't heard it put this way in a long time... It certianly got my attention...Canuckster1127 wrote:Intellectual belief has never saved anyone and never will.
In fact, ironically, I believe there comes a point where when we claim complete understanding of one immutable characteristic of God, and we elevate it that we are in danger of ceasing to place our faith in God and imagine our intellectual system, or systematized theology, has captured all of God that we need to know and understand. It is at that point, that we begin to introduce logical extremes and absurdities that elevate one particular element of God above all others and we get out of balance, in my opinion.
Yes, there actually is an underlying hermeneutic that emanates from the Scripture itself that ties it altogether upon which you derive the framework itself. It is quite simple, in fact very simple and glorifies God alone and not man. It is a mystery that is for sure. My challenge is to explore it further so you can, “grow in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”Canuckster1127 wrote:Because God is outside of time and space and sees everything from the beginning to the end. God is working in the lives of all his creatures everyday. He didn't just make a plan and then sit back and watch how it turns out. The plan of salvation was predestined from the foundation of the world through Christ. The plan being that Christ in obedience of God would offer Himself as the means to reconciliation to Him. The result is that all who would believe are promised eternal life. Christ's death on the cross was not ineffectual and He did not fail. In his love and mercy He gives everyone the ability to choose. This is the act of a God who is not only sovereign, but merciful, just and loving...
It is inescapable that God at the very least by allowance is responsible for sin. Omnipotence does not allow for any form of dualism. The one who has the power to eliminate or prevent evil and allows it to remain, is by definition responsible for it.
The question in my mind, is can human theology account for all that implies by means of systematic theology. I don't believe it ultimately can. At some point, you have to step back, and state "I don't know and I can't make it all fit together perfectly." At some point, you have to acknowledge that God is infinite and cannot be completely explained and completely grasped by logic or the human mind. Scripture itself affirms this in many places.
The question is, at what point do you make that assertion and embrace an element of mystery by faith? Extremes exist at either end of the spectrum which carry their own dangers and excesses.
That, in my opinion, is really the underlying issue in the tension between Sovereignty and Free Will. On some issues they are mutually exclusive and must be.
It's not enough to simply proof-text concepts and build a framework. There has to be an underlying hermeneutic that emanates from the Scripture itself that ties it altogether upon which you derive the framework itself.
That's where I am on it anyway. It is not a particularly satisfying answer for many and there is a danger that standing on mystery can become a crutch to avoid what Scripture does reveal in this area that is within our grasp and should be wrestled with.
FFC wrote: Romans 8:29 tells us that God predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his Son…The plan of salvation was predestined from the foundation of the world through Christ. The plan being that Christ in obedience of God would offer Himself as the means to reconciliation to Him. The result is that all who would believe are promised eternal life. Christ's death on the cross was not ineffectual and He did not fail. In his love and mercy He gives everyone the ability to choose. This is the act of a God who is not only sovereign, but merciful, just and loving.
FFC wrote: Romans 8:29 tells us that God predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his Son….The plan of salvation was predestined from the foundation of the world through Christ. The plan being that Christ in obedience of God would offer Himself as the means to reconciliation to Him. The result is that all who would believe are promised eternal life. Christ's death on the cross was not ineffectual and He did not fail. In his love and mercy He gives everyone the ability to choose. This is the act of a God who is not only sovereign, but merciful, just and loving