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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:41 pm
by FFC
DonCameron wrote:People,
I realize that what I believe about the soul, spirit and what happens when people die affects how I am able to understand subjects that have to do with the "everlasting punishment."
For example, since I believe that the dead are unconscious then it is easy for me to understand the words "perish" and "destroy" literally. I naturally conclude that the "everlasting punishment" must be an unconscious punishment, etc.
But when I come across things like "wailing and gnashing of teeth," "fire" or "tormented" I try to find ways of understand them so that they don't disagree with what I already believe.
The potential problem of course is that if what I believe about the soul and spirit is not true, then that will cause me to misunderstand what the Bible and most of you are trying to teach me about the everlasting punishment.
Am I the only one who tends to read the Bible this way. That is, so that it doesn't contradict what one already believes?
Don
No, Don, I don't believe you are. We all do it some extent and it can be an obstacle to the truth. It's just too tempting to try to make sense of the bible through the filter of our own belief systems.
Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:46 pm
by Canuckster1127
DonCameron wrote:People,
I realize that what I believe about the soul, spirit and what happens when people die affects how I am able to understand subjects that have to do with the "everlasting punishment."
For example, since I believe that the dead are unconscious then it is easy for me to understand the words "perish" and "destroy" literally. I naturally conclude that the "everlasting punishment" must be an unconscious punishment, etc.
But when I come across things like "wailing and gnashing of teeth," "fire" or "tormented" I try to find ways of understand them so that they don't disagree with what I already believe.
The potential problem of course is that if what I believe about the soul and spirit is not true, then that will cause me to misunderstand what the Bible and most of you are trying to teach me about the everlasting punishment.
Am I the only one who tends to read the Bible this way. That is, so that it doesn't contradict what one already believes?
Don
Don,
I believe there's always a bias brought to the reading and understanding of the Bible.
Some of it is willful, in terms of what you're stating here. Once a decision has been made on an issue, it becomes part of the filter which we apply to the Bible to understand passages that are unclear.
Some of it is unavoidable, and relates to the difference in culture, history and language that separates us from the context of the original text.
We have two things working for us to bridge that gap in my opinion.
First, the work of the Holy Spirit in guiding us into truth. Unfortunately, often times people alaim to hear that voice differently and arrive at different conclusions, but I believe it is the most important resource we have in understanding the Bible.
Second, the hard work of learning as much as we can of those issues that separate us from the text so that we can put it into a form and context that most accurately reflects the original text. That's a discipline and it requires at times a willingness to suspend to the best of our abilities our preconceived ideas. Many see that as a dangerous thing as it can lead to error as well.
At the very least, I think there needs to be a strong dose of humility for all of us, and maybe more willingness to answer from time to time, "I don't understand it all."
My 2 cents anyway.
Bart
Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:59 pm
by DonCameron
Byblos,
When I explained my understanding...
My understanding of "immortal life" is probably different than yours. I think of it as being self-contained, or self-sustained life that doesn't required being being 'plugged into' to any outside force. This is the kind of life that God and his Son have.
On the other hand, although "everlasting life" can last as long as "immortal life," it is not a self-stained form of life. It does require being 'plugged into" an outside force - (Hebrew "ruahh" Greek "pneuma.")
You then said...I
In other words, it has to have a soul (that's how I understand it ).
No, I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that in order for a soul (person) to have everlasting life, the person (soul) must always be 'plugged into' spirit (invisible force of life).
In order to see what I am saying you may need to temporarily block how you understand the soul and spirit. It may be tough to stop thinking of "soul" as being separate from the body and that it simply refers to a living, breathing person. (It also refers to a living, breathng lower animal).
You asked where I thought Jesus was those three days before his resurrection. I assume he was sleeping in death in hell!*
*or "Hades" or "the grave."
You also asked what I believed about Jesus.
I believe he is the Christ, the divine Son of God (John 20:30,31), and that he is Lord and that God raised him from the dead. - Romans 10:9
Don
Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:18 pm
by Byblos
DonCameron wrote:
You also asked what I believed about Jesus.
I believe he is the Christ, the divine Son of God (John 20:30,31), and that he is Lord and that God raised him from the dead. - Romans 10:9
Don
I asked if you believed in the
deity of Christ (i.e. the trinity), (John 1:1..14, The Word was with God, The Word was God, The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us).
One more question and you do not have to answer it if you don't want to, are you a Christadelphian (if not, do you belong to a particular denomination?). Not to pry or anything but it would've been more constructive to the discussion knowing those things beforehand. In case you didn't know, I'm Catholic.
Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:56 pm
by FFC
Byblos wrote:In case you didn't know, I'm Catholic
Yeah but we're all still praying for ya, buddy.
Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:00 pm
by DonCameron
Bylos,
Again, as far as Jesus is concerned, I believe exactly what John and Paul said we must believe about him.
John said that everything he wrote (including John 1:1, 5:18; 8:58, 10:30, and 20:28) was so that we may believe that "Jesus the Christ, the Son of God." And Paul added that we also need to believe that he is our Lord, and that God raised him from the dead. And so that's what I believe. Note: I don't know why but when I try to type the number "28" a little face shows up!
If there is anything more, or less, that we must believe about Jesus in order to have life by means of his name, I don't know what it is. - John 20:30,31; Romans 10:9
As far as the “soul” and “spirit” are concerned, one of the best sources of information I use to own (until I lost it) was "The Dictionary of the Bible" by the Catholic Jesuit John L. McKenzie, S.J. (1965). It had the Imprimatur. You can see quite a bit about what he taught at
http://www.elca.org/questions/Results.asp?recid=32
I was associated with the Watchtower Society for 21 years. I finally woke up in 1985 and recently finished writing a book to try to help the reader understand the illusionary concept that still holds millions of Jehovah's Witnesses captive.
It doesn't deal with Bible doctrine because it isn't what Witnesses believe about the Bible that keeps them captive. It is what they believe about the Watchtower Society that does it. There is information about the book at
http://www.CaptivesOfaConcept.com
My wife and I don't attend any church at this time.
Don
Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:24 pm
by Judah
DonCameron wrote: John said that everything he wrote (including John 1:1, 5:18; 8:58, 10:30, and 20:28) was so that we may believe that "Jesus the Christ, the Son of God." And Paul added that we also need to believe that he is our Lord, and that God raised him from the dead. And so that's what I believe. Note: I don't know why but when I try to type the number "28" a little face shows up!
It is not the "28" that causes the little face, but the "8" followed by the closing bracket ")" that does it. Click on that particular emoticon to the left of the message reply text area, and you will see that 8 ) (without the gap I have inserted) denotes that little face. To avoid the problem, you can insert one space between those two items when you type.
E.g. (including John 1:1, 5:18; 8:58, 10:30, and 20:28 )
Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:31 pm
by Byblos
Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:35 pm
by FFC
You are definitely one of a kind, brother...and I mean that in a good way.
Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:38 pm
by DonCameron
Thanks Judah for explaining how that face got there.
Don
Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:38 pm
by Canuckster1127
DonCameron wrote:Bylos,
Again, as far as Jesus is concerned, I believe exactly what John and Paul said we must believe about him.
John said that everything he wrote (including John 1:1, 5:18; 8:58, 10:30, and 20:28) was so that we may believe that "Jesus the Christ, the Son of God." And Paul added that we also need to believe that he is our Lord, and that God raised him from the dead. And so that's what I believe. Note: I don't know why but when I try to type the number "28" a little face shows up!
If there is anything more, or less, that we must believe about Jesus in order to have life by means of his name, I don't know what it is. - John 20:30,31; Romans 10:9
As far as the “soul” and “spirit” are concerned, one of the best sources of information I use to own (until I lost it) was "The Dictionary of the Bible" by the Catholic Jesuit John L. McKenzie, S.J. (1965). It had the Imprimatur. You can see quite a bit about what he taught at
http://www.elca.org/questions/Results.asp?recid=32
I was associated with the Watchtower Society for 21 years. I finally woke up in 1985 and recently finished writing a book to try to help the reader understand the illusionary concept that still holds millions of Jehovah's Witnesses captive.
It doesn't deal with Bible doctrine because it isn't what Witnesses believe about the Bible that keeps them captive. It is what they believe about the Watchtower Society that does it. There is information about the book at
http://www.CaptivesOfaConcept.com
My wife and I don't attend any church at this time.
Don
As the Jehovah's Witnesses do not accept the trinity, neither do they recognize Christ's Deity, but instead afford to him a position basically equating to first among all created beings, and further as you affirm JW doctrine but renounce only the organization in terms of the Watchtower society itself, and without the straight answer to Byblos' answer I think the answer is pretty clear.
Belief or non-belief in hell is rather beside the point in terms of the importance of that issue, don't you think?
Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:40 am
by DonCameron
Good morning Bart,
I know you remember when Jesus asked Peter, “Who do you say I am?” And you know how Peter answered his question (Matthew 16:15,16). I also know that if you asked me that same question today I would give the same answer.
But although Jesus declared Peter “happy” because he gave the correct divinely revealed answer, I'm not so sure that you would declare me “happy” even though I give the exact same answer. Why is that? What makes the difference?
I assume that you will answer the above question the same way that Peter and I do so that we all agree that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. But although such a confession seems to have completely satisfied Jesus, I get the feeling that you are not so satisfied; that there is more to it then just this one simple confession.
True, I have seen that there are other things we need to confess about of Jesus. For example, Paul said that in order to be saved we need to confess that “Jesus is Lord and that God had raised him up from the dead. - Romans 10:9
And John had a lot to say about the identity of Jesus and what he wanted his readers to end up believing about him. He said that everything he wrote about Jesus was so that we end up believing that he is “the Christ, the Son of God.” He concluded that if this is what we do believe about him we "may have life by means of his name." — John 20:30,31
But of all the things I have seen that the Bible says are necessary to believe about Jesus in order to be saved, there are some things that I have not seen it say. For example, I have never found where it says that it is necessary to believe that “Jesus is Deity” or that “Jesus is God” in order to be saved. Note: Even if John 1:1 is correctly translated “the Word Jesus was God,” John never suggests that it is necessary to believe that he is God in order to be saved, but only that he is God's Son. - John 20:31
I think it is worth noticing that even the hateful Jewish religious leaders, who worked so hard to come up with an legitimate excuse to have Jesus put to death, had to finally admit that he had never claimed that he was God but only that he was “God's Son.” John 19:7
I personally don't like to make an issue about this matter. If some Christians get a Trinity out of what the Bible says then that's fine - for them. I just happen to be one of those who doesn't see it that way. And from what I have seen, even if God is as a Trinity, it is not necessary to believe that he is in order to be saved.
Don
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:14 am
by Byblos
DonCameron wrote:Good morning Bart,
I know you remember when Jesus asked Peter, “Who do you say I am?” And you know how Peter answered his question (Matthew 16:15,16). I also know that if you asked me that same question today I would give the same answer.
But although Jesus declared Peter “happy” because he gave the correct divinely revealed answer, I'm not so sure that you would declare me “happy” even though I give the exact same answer. Why is that? What makes the difference?
I assume that you will answer the above question the same way that Peter and I do so that we all agree that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. But although such a confession seems to have completely satisfied Jesus, I get the feeling that you are not so satisfied; that there is more to it then just this one simple confession.
True, I have seen that there are other things we need to confess about of Jesus. For example, Paul said that in order to be saved we need to confess that “Jesus is Lord and that God had raised him up from the dead. - Romans 10:9
And John had a lot to say about the identity of Jesus and what he wanted his readers to end up believing about him. He said that everything he wrote about Jesus was so that we end up believing that he is “the Christ, the Son of God.” He concluded that if this is what we do believe about him we "may have life by means of his name." — John 20:30,31
But of all the things I have seen that the Bible says are necessary to believe about Jesus in order to be saved, there are some things that I have not seen it say. For example, I have never found where it says that it is necessary to believe that “Jesus is Deity” or that “Jesus is God” in order to be saved. Note: Even if John 1:1 is correctly translated “the Word Jesus was God,” John never suggests that it is necessary to believe that he is God in order to be saved, but only that he is God's Son. - John 20:31
I think it is worth noticing that even the hateful Jewish religious leaders, who worked so hard to come up with an legitimate excuse to have Jesus put to death, had to finally admit that he had never claimed that he was God but only that he was “God's Son.” John 19:7
I personally don't like to make an issue about this matter. If some Christians get a Trinity out of what the Bible says then that's fine - for them. I just happen to be one of those who doesn't see it that way. And from what I have seen, even if God is as a Trinity, it is not necessary to believe that he is in order to be saved.
Don
Don,
It seems that you want to consider what Peter understood or what John said or what Paul preached, which is fine. But, after all, they are human and they lack a certain capacity to fully comprehend what or who Jesus was. Even the chosen 12 at times wondered what they were doing following him and so much as confessed they had nowhere else to turn (almost wishing they would if they could). Why do you want to consider the comprehension of mere humans when you can look at the divine words of Jesus himself? Why do you discount his words in favor of theirs (and only when it supports your position)?
John 10:30 and John 14:9 are but a few. I urge you to look at the list of scriptures proclaiming the deity of Christ
here, particularly the first 2, The Deity of Jesus Christ from the Scriptures and Bible Verses Stating Jesus is God. All of these would have to be explained away in some fashion or another to deny Christ his deity.
I offer these as examples and do not intend to start another discussion on the trinity or the deity of Christ as I and others have done this multiple times and, from my part, have no inclination to do it again. I will only state the following: My understanding of christianity is that God himself came down and did the sacrificing for us. That is what's absolutely unique about christianity is that for the first time, people did not have to do the sacrificing, it was God that took it upon himself to wipe out the sins of the world by sacrificing his son, who is part and parcel of him. If Jesus was a mere human whom upon God bestowed some special powers, the meaning of our religion would simply not be the same now, would it? . We rest in the comfort that it was God who showed us the way, who lead by example, who came down and dwelt among us and showed us the true meaning of unconditional love. Where is the sacrifice in choosing some mere human and giving him special powers, even one proclaimed to be a son? How can an eternal God create a mortal man and call him his son? How can an omnipotent God create a non-omnipotent son? How can God be the only forgiver of sins, Jesus forgave sins, and Jesus not be God? How can you pray to Christ for forgiveness of your sins and not be considered an idolator if you do not believe he is God and not turn God into a liar? Whether or not you believe in the trinity is irrelevant. Christianity, however, rises or falls on the deity of Christ. IMHO.
God bless,
John
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:54 am
by FFC
Amen!!
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:08 am
by DonCameron
Hi John,
I do appreciate your concern and I have taken into consideration what youi have said.
Don