Re: sabbath keeping
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:16 am
by BavarianWheels
B. W. wrote:You are missing the point — Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and as Lord of the Sabbath in the Old Testament He appointed more than one Sabbath to observe. Which indeed these pointed to Himself.
Certainly. However there is only one Sabbath and it was made holy at creation, prior to sin entering the world. It's a memorial to God being our Creator and secondly our Savior. He is our Sabbath rest because He is our Creator. Because He is our Sabbath rest does not remove (or change) the Holy day He is Lord of. It's all pretty plain in the reading of the 4th commandment. Need I supply the wording?
B. W. wrote:What reason did Jesus go about picking grain on the Sabbath? What does this symbolize?
Wait! Who was picking grain?
B. W. wrote:Mat 12:1-2, “At that time Jesus went through the grain fields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, "Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath." ESV
The Pharisees plotted to kill Jesus for Breaking the Sabbath law — not keeping it as they thought it should be kept. Pretty much what many accuse us of doing. Likewise, they do not see the Lord of the Sabbath either.
B. W. wrote:Jesus is our first fruit — we honor a Sabbath rest and we do keep it Holy. How you may ask since it is not Saturday? We who minister dispense the bread of life and feed our sheep because, like the disciples once were that long ago Sabbath day, they were hungry.
We feed the flock because we love them, tend to them, and love the Lord and we honor the Sabbath that best reflects Him as He himself said to do in Lev 23:39. The Lord of the Sabbath makes Sabbath a Sabbath. Was man/woman made for the Sabbath or was the Sabbath made for men and women because we need rest and spiritual food so we can move from faith to faith.
You honor a sabbath day (actually a sabbath hour, not even a day as scripture says), but you don't honor the Sabbath day. It's quite like the difference between Cain's offering and Abel's offering. Both are offerings, but only one was what God asked/honored. Jesus claiming to be Lord of the Sabbath hardly removes the holiness placed upon it at creation. It simply means He owns it, He made it, He keeps it perfect, it's His day set aside so that we remember Him as our Creator.
B. W. wrote:How can you condemn us when we do in fact honor a seventh day rest? Do you not also honor a seventh day of rest? Do not be like a Pharisee seeking only to condemn and find fault. We are justified by Grace through faith, not works. We do honor a seventh day and you do so yourself. So will you be one dispensing the grain, the bread of life, so that many find true rest for one's souls? Or be a fault finding Pharsisee?
I don't condemn you, I'm just telling you you're wrong. I will do as Paul says, Uphold the Law because it is holy, righteous and true.
Explain to me how something is holy, righteous and true, yet you (men) have schemed to defame it and bring it down. (schemed in that every twisting and turning of scripture is done to put into the scripture that which is not there.)
B. W. wrote:If you subtract 7 form the 7th day — what day is left? The first day before God created was when the Holy Spirit brooded, resting, above the waters! Think on this a bit more and how it fits into Lev 23:29. I think you'll get it
[sarcasm]...[/sarcasm] I think you're right. We should just toss God's/Jesus finger painting in stone away. Oh wait, not the whole stone, let's just cut the center out.
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Re: sabbath keeping
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:11 am
by B. W.
BavarianWheels,
No Sarcasm intended:
Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. We celebrate the Lord's day - when he rose from the dead because he is the firstfruits -
unless a grain of wheat falls and dies...
Next,
Do you keep all the Sabbaths? The Feast Days? Or do you pick and chooses which ones apply or not?
Do you observe Saturday Sabbath from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown? Do you account for the change in minutes due to time gains from winter to summer?
Are you a solar Seventh day Sabbatarian — Midnight to midnight?
Next, tell me what day did the original Sabbath fall on as there was NO days of the week until the fourth day of creation Genesis 1:19 ! Answer - How did the ancient peoples keep time? The Solar Calendar system and marking of days upon a grid came much later in human history.
What day was the first day of the week in which we are to begin to count if there was no solar calendar system used back then but rather a Lunar calendar system?
Next, Exodus 20:8 is an injunction to
remember the Sabbath. The word translated as
Remember from the Hebrew is a verb meaning:
to remember, to mention, to recall, to think about, to think on, to be remembered, to recall, to acknowledge, to mention, to make known. The basic meaning indicates a process of mentioning or recalling either silently, verbally, or by means of a memorial sign or symbol.( From AMG Word Studies)
Next - Sunday to Sunday is seven days - is it not? So is Tuesday to Tuesday - so is Saturday to Saturday; therefore, to recall the Sabbath means to recall.
Also, did the Ten Commandments come first or the Sabbath? In fact, Do you obey the Sabbath by going about scraping manna from the ground on Friday?
Do you stone members to death in your church for being called to work on the Sabbath - say a doctor, nurse, EMT, Clerk, etc????
If you do not obey the Sabbath law completely, then do not come here a say we violate the Sabbath when you yourself do not practice to the letter what you preach.
Fact is - it is a call to remembrance that the Lord commands
for by the works of the law no flesh is justified in his sight. We Honor the Lord of the Sabbath for He rose from the dead — every, literally, every seven days as commanded!
The actual Sabbath day is only known to the Lord and because of that — it will be when Christ returns is when the bible tells when the true literal sabbath day will be back in play. Until now, we break bead, every seven days, and dispense the bread of life as the Lord Command because we do love him.
We feed the sheep...
We do not cast stones…
Here is a quote from
Robertsn's Word Pictures as well:
Acts 20:7
Upon the first day of the week (en de miāi tōn sabbatōn). The cardinal miāi used here for the ordinal prōtēi (Mark 16:9) like the Hebrew ehadh as in Mark 16:2; Mat 28:1; Lukee 24:1; John 20:1 and in harmony with the Koiné[28928]š idiom (Robertson, Gram Mark, p. 671). Either the singular (Mark 16:9) sabbatou or the plural sabbaton as here was used for the week (sabbath to sabbath). For the first time here we have services mentioned on the first day of the week though in 1Co 16:2 it is implied by the collections stored on that day. In Rev 1:10 the Lord's day seems to be the day of the week on which Jesus rose from the grave. Worship on the first day of the week instead of the seventh naturally arose in Gentile churches, though John 20:26 seems to mean that from the very start the disciples began to meet on the first (or eighth) day. But liberty was allowed as Paul makes plain in Rom 14:5.
When we were gathered together (sunēgmenōn hēmōn). Genitive absolute, perfect passive participle of sunagō, to gather together, a formal meeting of the disciples. See this verb used for gatherings of disciples in Acts 4:31; Acts 11:26; Acts 14:27; Acts 15:6, Acts 15:30; Acts 19:7, Acts 19:8; 1Co 5:4. In Heb10:25 the substantive episunagōgēn is used for the regular gatherings which some were already neglecting. It is impossible for a church to flourish without regular meetings even if they have to meet in the catacombs as became necessary in Rome. In Russia today the Soviets are trying to break up conventicles of Baptists. They probably met on our Saturday evening, the beginning of the first day at sunset. So these Christians began the day (Sunday) with worship. But, since this is a Gentile community, it is quite possible that Lukee means our Sunday evening as the time when this meeting occurs, and the language in John20:19 “it being evening on that day the first day of the week” naturally means the evening following the day, not the evening preceding the day.
To break bread (klasai arton). First aorist Actsive infinitive of purpose of klaō. The language naturally bears the same meaning as in Acts 2:42, the Eucharist or the Lord's Supper which usually followed the Agapē. See note on 1Co 10:16. The time came, when the Agapē was no longer observed, perhaps because of the abuses noted in 1 Co11:20. Rackham argues that the absence of the article with bread here and its presence (ton arton) in Acts 20:11shows that the Agapē is ] referred to in Acts 20:7and the Eucharist in Acts 20:11, but not necessarily so because ton arton may merely refer to arton in Acts 20:7. At any rate it should be noted that Paul, who conducted this service, was not a member of the church in Troas, but only a visitor.
Discoursed (dielegeto). Imperfect middle because he kept on at length.
Intending (mellō). Being about to, on the point of.
On the morrow (tēi epaurion). Locative case with hēmerāi understood after the adverb epaurion. If Paul spoke on our Saturday evening, he made the journey on the first day of the week (our Sunday) after sunrise. If he spoke on our Sunday evening, then he left on our Monday morning.
Prolonged his speech (Pareteinen ton logon). Imperfect Actsive (same form as aorist) of parateinō, old verb to stretch beside or lengthwise, to prolong. Vivid picture of Paul's long sermon which went on and on till midnight (mechri mesonuktiou). Paul's purpose to leave early next morning seemed to justify the long discourse. Preachers usually have some excuse for the long sermon which is not always clear to the exhausted audience.
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Re: sabbath keeping
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:44 pm
by BavarianWheels
B. W. wrote:No Sarcasm intended:
The sarcasm was mine that I had removed. I didn't want to be threatened with another ban so I simply removed it and left the quotes showing it had been there.
B. W. wrote:Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. We celebrate the Lord's day - when he rose from the dead because he is the firstfruits - unless a grain of wheat falls and dies...
Yet you have no scriptural evidence from Christ (or the apostles) of a change.
B. W. wrote:Next,
Do you keep all the Sabbaths? The Feast Days? Or do you pick and chooses which ones apply or not?
The only day MADE holy is the Sabbath day, the 7th of creation. It's the ONE command you are in contention with.
B. W. wrote:Do you observe Saturday Sabbath from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown?
Yes. As best as a penitent sinner can.
B. W. wrote:Do you account for the change in minutes due to time gains from winter to summer?
I think the daylight accounts for this on it's own.
B. W. wrote:Are you a solar Seventh day Sabbatarian — Midnight to midnight?
No.
B. W. wrote:Next, tell me what day did the original Sabbath fall on as there was NO days of the week until the fourth day of creation Genesis 1:19 ! Answer - How did the ancient peoples keep time? The Solar Calendar system and marking of days upon a grid came much later in human history.
It really doesn't matter which "day" the first fell on if God made the 7th holy and showed which day He wanted kept by miracles and wonders.
B. W. wrote:What day was the first day of the week in which we are to begin to count if there was no solar calendar system used back then but rather a Lunar calendar system?
Gee...I don't know. If only God had pointed to the right day some how.
B. W. wrote:Next, Exodus 20:8 is an injunction to remember the Sabbath. The word translated as Remember from the Hebrew is a verb meaning: to remember, to mention, to recall, to think about, to think on, to be remembered, to recall, to acknowledge, to mention, to make known. The basic meaning indicates a process of mentioning or recalling either silently, verbally, or by means of a memorial sign or symbol.( From AMG Word Studies)
How convenient it is for you to exclude the "keep it holy" part and the reason to keep it holy.
B. W. wrote:Next - Sunday to Sunday is seven days - is it not? So is Tuesday to Tuesday - so is Saturday to Saturday; therefore, to recall the Sabbath means to recall.
That's great arithmatic. You've just made God out to be arbitrary and His miracles and wonders meaningless.
B. W. wrote:Also, did the Ten Commandments come first or the Sabbath?
If the Sabbath was made Holy at creation, then the Sabbath came before the issuing of the commands to humanity. (personally I believe the Law was known to Adam and Eve. Is there proof of this? No, just conjecture.)
B. W. wrote:In fact, Do you obey the Sabbath by going about scraping manna from the ground on Friday?
Edit: I misread.
No, I don't. However if there was manna on the ground to gather, I would.
B. W. wrote:Do you stone members to death in your church for being called to work on the Sabbath - say a doctor, nurse, EMT, Clerk, etc????
Not at all. Do you stone members that use God's name in vain? Do you stone members that do not honor their father and mother?
More allowable ad hominem from a leader.
B. W. wrote:If you do not obey the Sabbath law completely, then do not come here a say we violate the Sabbath when you yourself do not practice to the letter what you preach.
I can't I'm a sinner. The Sabbath is only 1 of 10. It is one part of "holy, righteous and true." I hold the Sabbath in the same regard as any of the other 9. It is you that throws the 4th back in God's face.
B. W. wrote:Fact is - it is a call to remembrance that the Lord commands for by the works of the law no flesh is justified in his sight.
Absolutely spot on! I guess you didn't read my note? Here let me once again post this up for you from my previous post.
Bav wrote:NOTE:NOTE:God's Law points to sin. Anyone found in defiance of God's Law is sinful and the Law condemns him. If only the Law exists to judge, then the Law declares righteous ONLY those that are found in harmony with the Law. The Law can only declare a righteous person righteous because it is in perfect keeping of the Law that a righteous person exists. We know, however that there is NONE righteous. So the Law is powerless to make anyone [flesh...let me clarify in how you put it] righteous that has ever sinned, even one iota. Romans 3:21 - So then a righteousness APART FROM LAW has been made known to which the Law and the Prophets testify. It's been known since the "old" covenant. A few verses down, Romans 3:28, - "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." This is simply stating there are two ways to be justified. One is through the law and the other is by faith in Jesus Christ. If the law also justifies and declares righteous (save for sinners) then God's Law is HOLY, JUST, and TRUE. The law is weakend by sin, but the requirements of the law are righteous. See Romans 8:3,4. As sinners, we are hostile to God and we do not submit to God's law and so cannot please God. Romans 8:6-8 We have an obligation, but it is not to the sinful nature...that which cannot please God, that which does not submit to God's law. Our obligation is to live according to the Spirit.
B. W. wrote:We Honor the Lord of the Sabbath for He rose from the dead — every, literally, every seven days as commanded!
Similar to Cain's offering. Everything except what God asked/asks for.
B. W. wrote:The actual Sabbath day is only known to the Lord...
Really?...that manna miracle was fake?
B. W. wrote:..and because of that — it will be when Christ returns is when the bible tells when the true literal sabbath day will be back in play. Until now, we break bead, every seven days, and dispense the bread of life as the Lord Command because we do love him.
I think you're lying. You don't partake of the Lord's Supper everyday. You can continue in a man-made tradition of "every 7", but God pointed to THE 7th.
B. W. wrote:We feed the sheep...
We do not cast stones…
No, you may not cast stones, but you sure are a liberty to throw more sarcasm around that the rest of us peons.
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Re: sabbath keeping
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:59 pm
by B. W.
You are a nice Christian brother BavarianWheels
But someday you'll see... what remembrance means by memorial day — or a holy memorial day.
Jesus did rise on the first day of the week
and that may not even be a Sunday as transposed to our solar calendar system either !
Do you think, an all knowing God would not have foreseen these facts that with passage of time dumb human beings would mess with the calendar systems so days are lost and that is why in Genesis he said to
remember as a holy memorial the Sabbath for us dumb humans who in the future would be writing this on this internet website?
I'lI go for God's wisdom…
We both literally keep the seven day Sabbath as a holy memorial to provide rest for lost souls and food to grow by.
Now if you want to live according to the law of the Sabbath — then all of it you must live by, including the negative stoning parts! Can't pick and choose!
You also would need to keep all the Sabbaths the Lord declared including the eight day Sabbath!
Are you justified by keeping the Sabbath?
Or By God's Grace through Christ who rose on the eighth day of the week which signifies the results of final justification before God?
Robertson's Word Pictures stated this:
....Worship on the first day of the week instead of the seventh naturally arose in Gentile churches, though John 20:26 seems to mean that from the very start the disciples began to meet on the first (or eighth) day. But liberty was allowed as Paul makes plain in Rom 14:5.
...They probably met on our Saturday evening, the beginning of the first day at sunset. So these Christians began the day (Sunday) with worship. But, since this is a Gentile community, it is quite possible that Luke means our Sunday evening as the time when this meeting occurs, and the language in John 20:19 “it being evening on that day the first day of the week” naturally means the evening following the day, not the evening preceding the day.
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Re: sabbath keeping
Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:24 am
by BavarianWheels
B. W. wrote:You are a nice Christian brother BavarianWheels
I don't know you at all so I'll refrain from patronizing you.
B. W. wrote:But someday you'll see... what remembrance means by memorial day — or a holy memorial day.
I have scripture on my side. You have man's tradition(s). You have conjecture and hearsay at best. You have no directive from God, Jesus, or an apostle to a change in God's Law.
Matthew 15:6-9 wrote:...Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
"These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men."
Those words are Jesus' words. You are doing the same thing in regard to the Sabbath that Christ is Lord of. You follow rules taught by men.
B. W. wrote:Jesus did rise on the first day of the week and that may not even be a Sunday as transposed to our solar calendar system either !
Interesting. If you know the day Christ was raised, then you know which is the Sabbath. If we are wrong on the days of the week, then it is up to God to show us the right day. If there is no word from God, then it's one of two things: either you're right and the day doesn't matter OR time hasn't been lost and we go with what we have.
B. W. wrote:Do you think, an all knowing God would not have foreseen these facts that with passage of time dumb human beings would mess with the calendar systems so days are lost and that is why in Genesis he said to remember as a holy memorial the Sabbath for us dumb humans who in the future would be writing this on this internet website?
Conveniently you mislead the masses when you omit the Word of God. Here let me give you the first few words, you seem to have forgotten already.
Exodus 20:8 wrote:Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
Will you now say the translators of the Bible added the "by keeping" because they may've been stupid Sabbatarian legalists?
B. W. wrote:I'lI go for God's wisdom…
Actually you don't. Since you don't keep, you fail in remembering.
B. W. wrote:We both literally keep the seven day Sabbath as a holy memorial to provide rest for lost souls and food to grow by.
Again I'll say you're lying. You don't remember everyday. You don't keep everyday. You don't partake of the Lord's Supper everyday.
B. W. wrote:Now if you want to live according to the law of the Sabbath — then all of it you must live by, including the negative stoning parts! Can't pick and choose!
I want to live according to the Spirit. The Spirit is not hostile to God's Law. The flesh is.
I'll live according to Christ's example of not stoning the sinner, for if I do, I must first be stoned.
B. W. wrote:You also would need to keep all the Sabbaths the Lord declared including the eight day Sabbath!
Every 7th day Sabbath...the only one God MADE holy. The only one God said to remember by keeping.
B. W. wrote:Are you justified by keeping the Sabbath?
Are you so dense so as not to have read or by now know my position on the being justified by law? Please refer to the NOTE in the previous post.
B. W. wrote:Or By God's Grace through Christ who rose on the eighth day of the week which signifies the results of final justification before God?
Which neither Christ nor His apostles made holy. Christ never uttered a word to the effect, having multiple opportunities.
B. W. wrote: Robertson's Word Pictures stated this:
....Worship on the first day of the week instead of the seventh naturally arose in Gentile churches, though John 20:26 seems to mean that from the very start the disciples began to meet on the first (or eighth) day. But liberty was allowed as Paul makes plain in Rom 14:5.
...They probably met on our Saturday evening, the beginning of the first day at sunset. So these Christians began the day (Sunday) with worship. But, since this is a Gentile community, it is quite possible that Luke means our Sunday evening as the time when this meeting occurs, and the language in John 20:19 “it being evening on that day the first day of the week” naturally means the evening following the day, not the evening preceding the day.
I submit once again. Not a shred of scriptural evidence to do so. Just man-made tradition.
"...arose in Gentile churches..." "...seems to mean..." "...probably met..." "...it's quite possible..."
Yes, let's take these words of absolute truth and live by them because in the end, God also speaks in vague terms and seems to mean this, probably means that, or quite possibly doesn't care either way.
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Re: sabbath keeping
Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:23 pm
by B. W.
See around later Bavarian Wheels I'll get back to this next Sat or Sun....
No one is patronizing you Bav, you been on this for Forum quite a while so by your style - I do know something about you...
Now to the readers and those Saturday people…
As for days - no one even knows for sure what day Jesus rose from the dead on as the Sabbath came about - about 24 hours after first day of Passover. Passover this year falls on Tuesday. So to be correct, Jesus rose on Friday: Now, every year, the solar day changes. We keep a solar based calendar system - not a lunar one so the solar days of the week Mon, Tue, Wed, etc are not true reflection the day you and I were born, the Passover Sabbath. etc...
Sunday December 7, 1941 is Pearl Harbor day but this year it falls on Tuesday! So what day do we observe Pearl Harbor day on? Only Sundays or whatever solar cal day it falls on? What day did it happen on? Sunday — so why observe it this year on Tuesday? Shouldn't it be only observed on Sunday? If not — you're a heretic to observe Pearl Harbor day on any other day except Sunday!
Say what you may - Bot both keep a seventh day observance of the Sabbath. Don't judge us and we do not judge you. The early Christian groups were Jews who were persecuted and observed the resurrection day as the day to gather, read the scripture, break bread, etc…
Thru the passage of time, changing of calendar systems, no one knows what day the original Sabbath falls on despite what you may think. As the Passover falls on a different Solar Cal day every year clearly indicates this truth. If it did not — then it would fall on the same solar day say Tuesday for example every year. Very simple and logical as the Pearl Harbor Day example shows. Apply the word Sabbath to Pearl Harbor day and see what I mean: The Solar cal weekday changes but the day remains 12-07-1941 no matter what day if the week it falls on form that point in history.
The early Church suffered persecutions from the Sabbath Keepers of that era. One of the charges was failure to keep the Sabbath. That same religious spirit is alive and well today. Mention the facts and watch the sparks fly. Such vitriol venom now slays unity in the body of Christ, uses words to condemn, no grace or love shown despite claims of justification of love.So I ask - Love the day more than others — your own Christian family, thinking that by doing so you show that your love for God is superior? Hmmmm…..
Again to all Saturday people — do you keep all the Sabbaths found in the bible and all the law these require? Do you Abide in the letter of Sabbath Law (Moses) or the Day Memorial set up by God in Genesis chapter 1-3 which permits grace and rest?
I'll post more but for now I am a bit busy this next week and may not be able to respond until next Saturday...
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Re: sabbath keeping
Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:56 pm
by Fitzlight
It really gets me that christians claim to know the bible that they seem to not know are understand that there were three sets of laws. The first one was God's Holy Commandments/Laws, the second was the Levitical laws and the third was the Law of Moses. Plus christians proof every time they ask a question about the law that they have not studied the laws. So once more here are the Commandments/Laws of God as He wrote them with His on hand.
Exodus 20:2-17, 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Now please show this uneducated person where does it say anything about feasts, such as the feast of tabernacles? Were are there more than one Sabbathday mentioned?
These are God's Holy Laws and Commandments that have to strive to keep. Now please also show this stupid uneducated person what Laws/Commandments how are any of these Commandments/Laws contrary to us?
Now if you will look at the other two sets of laws, the Levitical laws and the laws of Moses you will see that they mention the feast days and see how they were contrary to us, but the God's Holy Laws/Commandments as they were written by God are not in any way contrary to us, Col.2:14, 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. So it is made clear that it was not the Commandments/Laws of God that were nailed to the stake with Jesus, but rather it was the Levitical laws and the laws of Moses. But again you christians refuse to accept the truth as it would mean that you are wrong and your pride will not let you even consider the fact that you are wrong. Even your own founders admit the truth concerning the sabbath. What the leaders of the Baptist have to say,
Baptist:
Sunday Sabbath not in the scriptures "There was and is a commandment
to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not on Sunday.
It will be said, however, and with some show of truimph, that the
Sabbath was transferred from the Seventh to the First day of the
week, with all its duties, privileges and sanctions. Earnestly
desiring information on this subject, which I have studied for many
years, I ask, where can the record of such a transaction be found?
Not in the New Testament - absolutely not. There is no scriptural
evidence of the change of the Sabbath institution from the Seventh to
the First day of the week...
"I wish to say that this Sabbath question, in this aspect of it, is
the gravest and most perlexing question connected with Christian
institutions which at present claims attention from Christian people;
and the only reason that it is not a more disturbing element in
Christian thought and in religious discussion is because the
Christian world has settled down content on the conviction that some
how a transference has taken place at the beginning of Christian
history.
"To me it seems unaccountable that Jesus, during three years'
discussion with His disciples, often conversing with them upon the
Sabbath question, discussing it in some of its various aspects,
freeing it from its false glosses, never alluded to any transference
of the day; also, that during forty days of His resurrection life, no
such thing was intimated. Nor, so far as we know, did the Spirit,
which was given to bring to their remembrance all things whatsoever
that He had said unto them, deal with this question. Nor yet did the
inspired apostles, in preaching the gospel, founding churches,
counseling and instruction those founded, discuss or approach the
subject.
"Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early
Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the Christian
Fathers and other sources. But what a pity that it comes branded with
the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of a sun god, when
adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a
sacred legacy to protestantism!" Dr. Edward Hiscox, author of The
Baptist Manual.
Episcopal:
Bible commandment says the seventh day "The Bible commandment says on
the seventh-day thou shalt rest. That is Saturday. Nowhere in the
Bible is it laid down that worship should be done on Sunday." Phillip
Carrington, quoted in Toronto Daily Star, Oct 26, 1949 [Carrington
(1892-), Anglican archbishop of Quebec, spoke the above in a message
on this subject delivered to a packed assembly of clergymen. It was
widely reported at the time in the news media].
Lutheran:
They err in teaching Sunday Sabbath But they err in teaching that
Sunday has taken the place of the Old Testament Sabbath and therefore
must be kept as the seventh day had to be kept by the children of
Israel.....These churches err in their teaching, for scripture has in
no way ordained the first day of the week in place of the Sabbath.
There is simply no law in the New Testament to that effect" John
Theodore Mueller, Sabbath or Sunday, pp.15, 16
"We have seen how gradually the impression of the Sabbath faded from
the mind of the Christian church, and how completely the newer
thought underlying the observance of the first day took possesion of
the church. We have seen that the Christian of the first three
centuries never confused one with the other, but for a time
celebrated both." The Sunday Problem, a study book by the Lutheran
Church (1923) p.36
"They [Roman Catholics] refer to the Sabbath Day, as having been
changed into the Lord's Day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it seems.
Neither is there any example whereof they make more than concerning
the changing of the Sabbath Day. Great, say they, is the power of the
Church, since it has dispensed with one of the Ten commandments!"
Augsburg Confession of Faith,art. 28; written by Melanchthon and
approved by Martin Luther, 1530; as published in The Book of Concord
of the Evangelical Lutheran Church Henry Jacobs, editor (1911), p.63
Methodist:
Jesus did not abolish the moral law - no command to keep holy the
first day The moral law contained in the Ten Commandments, and
enforced by the prophets, Jesus did not take away. It was not the
design of His coming to revoke any part of this. This is a law which
can never be broken...Every part of this law must remain in force
upon all mankind and in all ages; as not depending either on time or
place, or any other circumstances liable to change, but on the nature
of man, and their unchangeable relation to each other." John Wesley,
Sermons on Several Occasions, Vol.1, No. 25
"It is true that there is no positive command for infant baptism. Nor
is there any for keeping holy the first day of the week. Many believe
that Christ changed the Sabbath. But, from His own words, we see that
He came for no such purpose. Those who believe that Jesus changed the
Sabbath base it only on a supposition." Amos Binney, Theological
Compendium, 1902 edition, pp 180-181, 171 [Binney (1802-1878),
Methodist minister and presiding elder, whose Compendium was
published for forty years in many languages, also wrote a Methodist
New Testament Commentary].
"Take the matter of sunday. There are indications in the new
testament as to how the church came to keep the first day of the week
as its day of worship, but there is no passage telling Christians to
keep that day or to transfer the Sabbath to that day." Harris
Franklin Rall, Christian Advocate July 2, 1942 pg. 26
Moody Bible Institute:
"Sabbath was before Sinai" "I honestly believe that this commandment
[the Sabbath commandment] is just as binding today as it ever was. I
have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated
[abolilshed], but they have never been able to point to any place in
the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did
nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the
scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place. 'The
Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath' [mark 2:27]. It is
just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was -
in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.
"The [Seventh-day] Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in
force ever since. This Fourth Commandment [Exodus 20:8-11] begins
with the word 'remember,' showing that the Sabbath had already
existed when God wrote the law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How
can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when
they admit that the other nine are still binding? Dwight.L. Moody,
Weighed and Wanting, 1898, pp.46-47 [D.L. Moody, (1837-1899) was the
most famous evangelist of his time, and founder of the Moody Bible
Institute].
"This Fourth is not a commandment for one place, or one time, but for
all places and times." D.L. Moody, at San Francisco, Jan. 1st, 1881.
Presbyterian:
Sunday kept the Gentiles (pagans) happy "Sunday being the first day
of which the Gentiles (pagans) solemnly adored that planet and called
it Sunday, partly from its influence on that day especially, and
partly in respect to its divine body (as they conceived it) the
Christians thought fit to keep the same day and the same name of it,
that they might not appear carelessly peevish, and by that means
hinder the conversion of the Gentiles(pagans), and bring a greater
prejudice that might be otherwise taken against the gospel" T.M.
Morer, Dialogues on the Lord's Day
Roman Catholic:
No such law in the Bible "Nowhere in the bible do we find that Jesus
or the apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Satuday to
Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy
the Sabbath day, that is, the seventh day of the week, Saturday.
Today, most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us
by the [Roman] church outside the bible." Catholic Virginian, Oct. 3,
1947
"You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not
find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The
Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which
we never sanctified." James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our
Fathers (1917 ed.), pp.72,73
"If protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on
the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of
the Catholic Church." Albert Smith, chancellor of the Archdiocese of
Baltimore, replying for the cardinal in a letter of Feb. 10, 1920.
Question: "Have you not any other way of proving that the Church has
power to institute festivals of precept?"
Answer: "Had she not such power, she could not have done that in
which all modern religionists agree with her - she could not have
substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for
the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there
is no Scriptural authority" Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd
ed. p. 174
"Question: How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts
and holydays?
Answer: By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which
Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict
themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other
feasts commanded by the same Church." Henry Tuberville, An Abridgment
of the Christian Doctrine (1833 approbation), p.58 (Same statement in
Manual of Christian Doctrine, ed. by Daniel Ferris [1916 ed.], p.67)
"The Catholic Church,... by virtue of her divine mission, changed the
day from Saturday to Sunday." The Catholic Mirror, official organ of
Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893.
"1. Is Saturday the 7th day according to the Bible and the 10
Commandments?"I answer yes.
"2. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the
7th day, Saturday, for Sunday, the 1st day?"I answer yes.
"3. Did Christ change the day?"I answer no!
Faithfully yours, "J. Cardinal Gibbons" Gibbons' autograph letter.
"Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic
Church transferred the solemity from Saturday to Sunday." Peter
Geiermann, The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1946 ed.),
p.50. Geiermann received the "apostolic blessing" of Pope Pius X on
his labors, January 25, 1910.
"The Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right
of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her Founder,
Jesus Christ. The Protestant, claiming the Bible to be the only guide
of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the
Seventh Day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant. The Catholic
Universe Bulletin, Aug. 14, 1942, p.4
"The observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay,
in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] church."
Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today
(1868),
I can post many more, but these make it very clear that even the founders of the christian churches knew that the seventhday sabbath was the only sabbath commanded by God and you christians even make your own founders out to be liars. The Catholics are the only ones here that is speaking the truth about the sabbath.
Now one last thing. We are never commanded by God to worship on any certain day. There is not any commandment that says we must worship on the seventhday. We are not commanded to worship on the seventhday. We are commanded to keep it Holy and to rest and nothing more. We are to worship every day as worship means to always be thinking about God/Jesus and giving Him thanks and praise, but rest is to cease from doing any work were you benefit from your labors. If you want to work on your job on the sabbath then you must work for free so that only the one you work for benefits. The seventhday sabbath is the one day per week that God ask you to rely on Him compeletly for everything you need so that you might remember that He isw the creator God and so that you might fall prey to this happening, IITimothy 3:5, 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. which you christians already do.
Re: sabbath keeping
Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:40 pm
by Kurieuo
Hi Fitz. I personally prefer to listen to Scripture as plainly read than any commentary.
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. (Colossians 2:16)
One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. (Romans 14:5-8)
Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (2 Corinthians 3:4-6)
Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. (2 Corinthians 3:12-17)
Hebrews 8:
- 6But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Many blessings,
Kurieuo.
