Infinite punishment for finite sins

[BavarianWheels]

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btw...I don't normally get on here over the weekends. I'm not stuck in front of a computer on Saturdays and Sundays for 8-10 hours.
Thank God for the Sabbath and our need for rest in Him.

I hope I don't have A LOT of points to cover, come Monday morning.
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[Sudsy]

B. W. -

Thanks for the posts Sudsy...

B.W. and J. Davis, I want to apologize for my use of words that offended you both. I have been admonished by a moderator to be more courteous and respectful and I will certainly work on this. I truly felt that in your zeal to promote and stand for your belief that you were very intolerant of the belief of others and I wanted you to see that.

To make a debate more friendly, might I suggest that you consider making your points on what you believe and why you believe it without defaming the opposing beliefs of someone else. This can be done by saying my belief is such and such with these supporting scriptures and logic. You don't really need to put down the beliefs that others have and just allow the reading public to decide for themselves what they choose to believe. This will not weaken and may even strengthen your arguments. Trust that God will reveal what is truth and what is not to those reading these posts and perhaps what is not even important to pursue.

Anyway, as a fellow believer, the flesh does rise up from time to time and we are not perfect people but we serve a perfect Christ. Lets keep our focus on Him and allow Him to keep us in a unity that only He came bring.

[B. W.]

That's fine, well, and dandy. But unless you (in general) have some kind of private revelation to the contrary, you must acknowledge that others with opposing (and possibly contradictory) views are as equally confident in their belief and are just as likely to believe they are following God's Word as they see it.

Byblos, that is exactly what my post say’s. Just a general statement about what the bible says concerning the matter. If one believes that their interpretation of God’s word is the truth than they should do as I have said and we all take account for what we say. But we absolutely should not agree with what we believe to be false teachings concerning the word of God.

Yes, I acknowledge that Christians with contradictory views are as equally confident in their belief and are just as likely to believe they are following God's Word as they see it, but how to you determine truth, is there away? Or are we to drown in relative truth?

The point I made earlier was that there is a manner in which to determine if doctrine is correct. Our society has fallen to a point that truth is determined by no one taking a stand because nobody can know the truth, truth is relative. Truth is not relative, there is a way in which one can test their own doctrines by measuring them up against what the bible plainly says about God's character, nature, how God really is. These scriptures are immune from privet interpretations.

That was all I was saying to do. I did not mean for this thread to go haywire and have good Christian people pit each other against each other. Our modern mindset concerning truth is relative is at fault. Let me give you an example:

Imagine Jesus today, using modern idea of debate, going into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. The exchange would be amusing:

Satan says – “if you’re the son of god command these stones to turn into bread…”

Modern Jesus replies, “It is written by Caiaphas but not agreed upon by Gamaliel because I must be balanced as truth cannot be agreed upon and therefore forever unknown so out of respect for all views one says I am and the one says I am not…"

That is how far modern scholastic thought has come.

Jesus answered simple: It is written, thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God….

I do not think Jesus would be well received today saying such things do you?

So how do you determine truth - truth of doctrine? Can it ever be really known, or is all truth so relative and we must all bow to relativistic thought?

I stated Truth can be found so let's start...

I posted below scriptures that teach the basic principles of God’s character:

Therefore, what do these verses below say about God? What do they tell you about God?

As it is written:

2 Timothy 2:13, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself." [/i]

Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?” NKJV

Hebrews 6:18, “…that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.”

Deuteronomy 32:4, "He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He."

Job 34:10-12 "Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding: Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to commit iniquity. 11 For He repays man according to his work, And makes man to find a reward according to his way. 12 Surely God will never do wickedly, nor will the Almighty pervert justice."

Psalms 92:15, "To declare that the LORD is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him."

Job 8:3. "Does God subvert judgment? Or does the Almighty pervert justice?"

Zep 3:5,"The LORD is righteous in her midst, He will do no unrighteousness. Every morning He brings His justice to light; He never fails, But the unjust knows no shame."

2 Ch 19:7, "Now therefore, let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take care and do it, for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, no partiality, nor taking of bribes."

Isa 55:8-11 - "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. 10 "For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater, 11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it."

Isa 46:9-10 - "Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure..."

Deuteronomy 10:17, “For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.”

Nahum 1:3 - "The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked..."NKJV

Isaiah 57:21 - "There is no peace," Says my God, "for the wicked[."NKJV

Job 37:23, "As for the Almighty, we cannot find Him; He is excellent in power, In judgment and abundant justice; He does not oppress."

Ecclesiastes 12:14, “For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil.”

Jeremiah 17:10, “I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.”

As well as Ecclesiastes 3:11, 14

Pretty clear and each are very to the point. No privet interpretations needed. Each says what each says about God, revealing glimpses of His Character and Nature…

What do you learn about God from these verses?
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[B. W.]

B. W. -

Thanks for the posts Sudsy...

B.W. and J. Davis, I want to apologize for my use of words that offended you both. I have been admonished by a moderator to be more courteous and respectful and I will certainly work on this. I truly felt that in your zeal to promote and stand for your belief that you were very intolerant of the belief of others and I wanted you to see that.

To make a debate more friendly, might I suggest that you consider making your points on what you believe and why you believe it without defaming the opposing beliefs of someone else. This can be done by saying my belief is such and such with these supporting scriptures and logic. You don't really need to put down the beliefs that others have and just allow the reading public to decide for themselves what they choose to believe. This will not weaken and may even strengthen your arguments. Trust that God will reveal what is truth and what is not to those reading these posts and perhaps what is not even important to pursue.

Anyway, as a fellow believer, the flesh does rise up from time to time and we are not perfect people but we serve a perfect Christ. Lets keep our focus on Him and allow Him to keep us in a unity that only He came bring...

No problem Sudsy - look above to begin...

[Byblos]

That's fine, well, and dandy. But unless you (in general) have some kind of private revelation to the contrary, you must acknowledge that others with opposing (and possibly contradictory) views are as equally confident in their belief and are just as likely to believe they are following God's Word as they see it.

Byblos, that is exactly what my post say’s. Just a general statement about what the bible says concerning the matter. If one believes that their interpretation of God’s word is the truth than they should do as I have said and we all take account for what we say. But we absolutely should not agree with what we believe to be false teachings concerning the word of God.

Yes, I acknowledge that Christians with contradictory views are as equally confident in their belief and are just as likely to believe they are following God's Word as they see it, but how to you determine truth, is there away? Or are we to drown in relative truth?

The point I made earlier was that there is a manner in which to determine if doctrine is correct. Our society has fallen to a point that truth is determined by no one taking a stand because nobody can know the truth, truth is relative. Truth is not relative, there is a way in which one can test their own doctrines by measuring them up against what the bible plainly says about God's character, nature, how God really is. These scriptures are immune from privet interpretations.

That was all I was saying to do. I did not mean for this thread to go haywire and have good Christian people pit each other against each other. Our modern mindset concerning truth is relative is at fault. Let me give you an example:

Imagine Jesus today, using modern idea of debate, going into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. The exchange would be amusing:

Satan says – “if you’re the son of god command these stones to turn into bread…”

Modern Jesus replies, “It is written by Caiaphas but not agreed upon by Gamaliel because I must be balanced as truth cannot be agreed upon and therefore forever unknown so out of respect for all views one says I am and the one says I am not…"

That is how far modern scholastic thought has come.

Jesus answered simple: It is written, thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God….

I do not think Jesus would be well received today saying such things do you?

So how do you determine truth - truth of doctrine? Can it ever be really known, or is all truth so relative and we must all bow to relativistic thought?

I stated Truth can be found so let's start...

I posted below scriptures that teach the basic principles of God’s character:

Therefore, what do these verses below say about God? What do they tell you about God?

As it is written:

2 Timothy 2:13, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself." [/i]

Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?” NKJV

Hebrews 6:18, “…that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.”

Deuteronomy 32:4, "He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He."

Job 34:10-12 "Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding: Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to commit iniquity. 11 For He repays man according to his work, And makes man to find a reward according to his way. 12 Surely God will never do wickedly, nor will the Almighty pervert justice."

Psalms 92:15, "To declare that the LORD is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him."

Job 8:3. "Does God subvert judgment? Or does the Almighty pervert justice?"

Zep 3:5,"The LORD is righteous in her midst, He will do no unrighteousness. Every morning He brings His justice to light; He never fails, But the unjust knows no shame."

2 Ch 19:7, "Now therefore, let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take care and do it, for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, no partiality, nor taking of bribes."

Isa 55:8-11 - "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. 10 "For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater, 11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it."

Isa 46:9-10 - "Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure..."

Deuteronomy 10:17, “For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.”

Nahum 1:3 - "The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked..."NKJV

Isaiah 57:21 - "There is no peace," Says my God, "for the wicked[."NKJV

Job 37:23, "As for the Almighty, we cannot find Him; He is excellent in power, In judgment and abundant justice; He does not oppress."

Ecclesiastes 12:14, “For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil.”

Jeremiah 17:10, “I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.”

As well as Ecclesiastes 3:11, 14

Pretty clear and each are very to the point. No privet interpretations needed. Each says what each says about God, revealing glimpses of His Character and Nature…

What do you learn about God from these verses?
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I appreciate your post B.W. as I'm sure others do as well. It's a good start. Now you have to bring it home and show how each of these verses connects with an infinite punishment or deny annihilation, precisely. If that is the truth you believe these verses reveal (and I know you know I agree with you but I'll state it anyway), then let's see HOW they reveal it.

[J.Davis]

@ Sudsy

It’s ok Sudsy…

[J.Davis]

Just to be clear..the bible does not support annihilation at all. Not without contradicting scriptures and changing the word eternal to a metaphor for an everlasting memory. I agree that people can believe what they want and defend that belief as their own personal truth but that does not mean that it is right according to the bible.

[B. W.]

...I appreciate your post B.W. as I'm sure others do as well. It's a good start. Now you have to bring it home and show how each of these verses connects with an infinite punishment or deny annihilation, precisely. If that is the truth you believe these verses reveal (and I know you know I agree with you but I'll state it anyway), then let's see HOW they reveal it.

First before even can get to that point - everyone posting here needs to look at the scriptures posted above about who God is and write - what does it objectively say about God in these verses - Identify the truths about God that is being convey written in a brief summery or under each verse - then a brief summery for personal reference. This is slow but it is how one must begin so we can continue on from there. I know the Holt Spirit will do the rest...

Example:

Deuteronomy 32:4, "He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He."

God is a Rock, what he does is perfect, all his ways are justice, God of truth without injustice - righteous and upright is God in all he does..

You can add original language definitions if you like as well -

God is stable/solid, His work is blameless, all his ways …etc and etc…

Compile all you find in a paragraph and look at what it says about God…

That is the first step… The Foundation stone is Christ - from that comes the rest...
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[Canuckster1127]

That is the first step… The Foundation stone is Christ - from that comes the rest...

Agreed. So why not start with Christ and what he says about Himself and about God?

[B. W.]

That is the first step… The Foundation stone is Christ - from that comes the rest...

Agreed. So why not start with Christ and what he says about Himself and about God?

That's what I am suggesting doing. This is something few attempt to do. The reason for this, well, it will cause people to rethink doctrine and point out many diverse things to people in a unique ways. The only way I can do this is to start out slow and easy and have others post what they think of the scriptures in the above frames list and others that speak of the Lord's character and nature...

Add verse if you like as well about Christ.

Here's another I forgot to mention:

Isaiah 6:3, "And one cried to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!"

The Trisagions points out that God is Holy and the other speaks of God's glory and other verses speak of his Glory resounding in heavens and earth... elsewhere in the bible...

So we can rest assure that God is Holy...

I think we all can agree that God is Holy..
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[Canuckster1127]

I think we can agree that God is Holy too. However, there can be a huge difference in doctrine, emphasis and how we walk when we emphasize God's holiness and transcendence as opposed to when we emphasize God' love. Which did Jesus emphasize? Beyond that what did Jesus model?

[B. W.]

I think we can agreet that God is Holy too. However, there can be a huge difference in doctrine, emphasis and how we walk when we emphasize God's holiness and transcendence as opposed to when we emphasize God' love. Which did Jesus emphasize? Beyond that what did Jesus model?

In time, exploring things in the manner suggested will answer the questions you posed uncovering which is correct and not so correct as well as which is wrong.

For now, which comes first: The House or the foundation trench?

Most seem interested in only building their house with no foundation because it takes time to much time to dig a trench that reaches the solid foundational bedrock.
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[Canuckster1127]

Jesus says he is the foundation and the cornerstone, doesn't he?

Honest question, if systematizing in this manner is what is needed to understand God, why did Jesus have to come and why didn't he teach in this manner? Is the systematic methodology itself modelled in scripture? If not, where is it coming from and what assumptions is it carrying?

[Sudsy]

Jesus says he is the foundation and the cornerstone, doesn't he?

Honest question, if systematizing in this manner is what is needed to understand God, why did Jesus have to come and why didn't he teach in this manner? Is the systematic methodology itself modelled in scripture? If not, where is it coming from and what assumptions is it carrying?

As now an observer only on debating this topic - great question Canuckster1127 !!!!

[J.Davis]

Honest question, if systematizing in this manner is what is needed to understand God, why did Jesus have to come and why didn't he teach in this manner? Is the systematic methodology itself modeled in scripture? If not, where is it coming from and what assumptions is it carrying?

Colossians 1:28 We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ. 29 For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.

You know, I believe that everyone has the knowledge of what is true concerning God’s law (right and wrong), the bible confirms this. However, I also believe that people can continuously lie to themselves and become blind to the truth.

The truth gets buried because of one’s need to have what they desire despite the law in their heart or because of countless factors such as abuse, brainwashing, fear, how they were raised etc. The word of God is the shovel that digs deep into the soul, breaking it’s hard crusty surface, removing layer upon layer of dirt until our dead rotting nature is exposed and resurrected through the power of GOD (dramatic..lol)!

But yeah, many people have forgotten the truth and so long as their lies make sense and they accept that things are as they are because that’s how they are then they may die having lived a lie and then live forever having denied the truth (Jesus).

Anyone that has a character close to Jesus knows the truth and the closer you get the more truth you know. Unfortunately, passionately saying that something is true, miracles, testimonies, displaying God’s gifts, love, joy etc is not enough to convince some people. I don’t like to believe that everyone can not be saved and I don’t. I approach each person believing that they will be saved and so far I have seen everyone I have invited to church saved. But the bible does say that some will be unsaved. Some people are masters at defending their beliefs, if they are wrong, so long as no one can defeat their reasoning they will believe a lie. If it is possible to show the truth with zero doubt than I say amen. That would be the only way for some people to reconsider their beliefs.

In life, things that are said can be understood as the words written or spoken suggest they should be. But the words spoken or written can also effect the heart (soul) differently than they effect the mind and it can be different from person to person. Words written or spoken can also effect one’s perception of the speaker or writer. And the message received by the one who reads or hears may or may not be the message the author intended.

God’s saints minister in many ways, whether it be music, art, poetry, cars, exercise, buff guys bending objects with seemingly superhuman strength as they teach in a way that relates to the object, movies and games etc etc. In this case it’s advanced reasoning infused with God’s wisdom, word and insight. Some people will find this type of ministry attractive and it may be the best way to get through to some. I think so long as one is a true Christian and lead by the Lord (not doing anything against the word of God) and has insight than any tool he or she uses can glorify God and open the eyes of the lost or speak to a brother or sister in Christ.

I prefer music and various arts as a ministry tool. But I am also good with many other techniques. But yeah, so long as one is lead by God...I say amen....Well, if they're good. People of God need to hone their skill and be awesome! And you guy’s are some of the best I have seen concerning logic, reasoning and knowledge of the bible.

Are you just telling us to take a break already Bart?...LOL!