Evidence for God from Science

Well, I think we have taken this issue as far as we could. I'd like to say that I am trying to understand what we talked about and re-examining my own views. There is very little that I disagree with you guys and lots more to which I agree with you.

Bro Danny,

neo-x wrote:
It would be wrong for God to accept people who persist in sin and call themselves filled with the Spirit.

Whoa whoa whoa. Why would it be “wrong”? Neo, are you seriously presuming to tell God what is right and what is wrong? Was it wrong for God to pluck you out of nowhere when you were already dead in your sin? No? According to your thinking here, why the hell not? You really need to start looking at the gift as a gift, brother.

My apologies if I ill-worded this statement, I only meant that without the spirit of God, we can not be accepted by God, no matter what we think.

neo-x wrote:
a good tree bears good fruit, a bad tree does respectively. I think that scriptures make it clear. I think the work Christ did was meant for us to sin less and less with passing time. So that we can learn to walk more in the spirit and less in the flesh, with each passing day.

No. The work of Christ was atonement for our sins. What could be more beautiful than that? Do you honestly believe Christ came, gave His life, so you might “sin less and less”, and ‘perhaps’ be saved? Like it not, brother, your sins are forgiven! No born again believer throws this back in Christ’s face. If I sin, it is not I that sins, but my sinful nature. I don’t ‘want’ to sin; I try hard sometimes not to, and other times show tremendous weakness. Am I really to deduce that I might not be saved? Am I really to deduce that Christ’s work on the cross was so flaky that it left everything hanging in the balance and leaves every ‘saved’ person not really sure of their salvation? Did Christ ‘not really’ conquer our sins, but hey, He gave it a good go? How many out of 10 shall we give Him for effort?

Brother Danny, even if you disregard my opinion completely. I believe, a walk in the spirit is still in order.

neo-x wrote:
Some verses from 1 John 2
(1 John 2:3-6 NIV) [3]"We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. [4] The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: [6] Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did."

Exhortation to the brothers and sisters. Otherwise you have a lot to live up to here, Neo. Can you walk as Jesus did?

No, I don't think this is just exhortation, Brother Danny, I think John is saying something similar to what Jesus said:

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.

John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

I think this urges us more in obedience, I am not saying we are going to be perfect but we can take certainly move in that direction (of course such a person would have the spirit of God in him, we are talking about born again people here and I am not saying that they can lose their salvation; obedience is essential.)

Your sins did not matter when God chose you, so why would they matter now? Sanctification is a process for every born again believer, and there is no stipulation telling us ‘how much’ sanctification is ‘required’.’ If the Spirit dwells in you, then you are saved. Once you know you are a child of God, your whole attitude towards sin changes.

As long as this is a given, I have nothing to object, I wholeheartedly agree.

Neo, I love you, brother, but you sound like a legalist here.

Bro, being a legalist was not my intention at all. If its worth, all I have shared with you are my thoughts and problems that still nag me. If I am of the wrong view, I sincerely hope to be corrected by the HS.

And I love you too.

PS: All of you have helped me understand a lot of things, and for that I am thankful to God for this community and all of you. God bless us

neo-x wrote:No, I don't think this is just exhortation, Brother Danny, I think John is saying something similar to what Jesus said:

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.

John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

I think this urges us more in obedience, I am not saying we are going to be perfect but we can take certainly move in that direction (of course such a person would have the spirit of God in him, we are talking about born again people here and I am not saying that they can lose their salvation; obedience is essential.)

Amen.

Your sins did not matter when God chose you, so why would they matter now? Sanctification is a process for every born again believer, and there is no stipulation telling us ‘how much’ sanctification is ‘required’.’ If the Spirit dwells in you, then you are saved. Once you know you are a child of God, your whole attitude towards sin changes.

neo-x wrote:As long as this is a given, I have nothing to object, I wholeheartedly agree.

Absolutely.

Neo, I love you, brother, but you sound like a legalist here.

neo-x wrote:Bro, being a legalist was not my intention at all. If its worth, all I have shared with you are my thoughts and problems that still nag me. If I am of the wrong view, I sincerely hope to be corrected by the HS.

I know it’s not your intention, brother. It is your passion to serve Christ. You’re a soldier of God, and I understand your argument. A while ago I was making the same argument, and it has been out of love that I have tried to pursue this with you. And I’m thankful that we have, with the Spirit’s hand, resolved this, my brother.

God bless

I'm all teary eyed reading this exchange. Ah, the spirit of Christ is here amongst us, that's for sure. A peaceful exchange of differing thought, but brought to resolution without hurt. Such is the Christian spirit Bless you both!

StMonicaGuideMe wrote:I'm all teary eyed reading this exchange. Ah, the spirit of Christ is here amongst us, that's for sure. A peaceful exchange of differing thought, but brought to resolution without hurt. Such is the Christian spirit Bless you both!

Only on this forum.

This is the scariest Christian forum I have ever read!!!!! so all you people are out there feeding the poor and visiting folk in prison and stuff? man oh man i can barely get out of bed... and i'm so crazy and demon riddled that every thought is a sin and every feeling a fear, and you people say i need works to not be damned for eternity, i'm lucky if i can SHOWER, my goodness no wonder people don't want to become Christians!!!! how can you even function in this world with the idea that you can lose your salvation if you are not good enuff???? i can barely stop from having a FIT after just reading about it! i was reading another thread where somebody was all about quitting masturbation, i mean honestly, what does that have to do with accepting Christ and being saved from hell? I RUN from places like this and no that doesn't mean that i'm not wanting to be good, it means i'm an utter failure at being good, but if y'all aren't then good on ya, but i depend on GOD, not my ability, and if it does depend on my ability then i'm lost, coz believe me i've been sifted like wheat... the gospel tells you to be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect, good luck with that... it's on your 'to do' list right? i'm not angry, just scared, i almost killed myself today and this is probably one of those places that would tell me it's the unpardonable sin or something, bad day and didn't need all this mary poppins 'practically perfect in every way' type Christianity... not to criticize, but that's no way to save the lost, it's a way to lose the saved!!!

Make a new topic out of it this is wrong thread.

zoeflower wrote:This is the scariest Christian forum I have ever read!!!!! so all you people are out there feeding the poor and visiting folk in prison and stuff? man oh man i can barely get out of bed... and i'm so crazy and demon riddled that every thought is a sin and every feeling a fear, and you people say i need works to not be damned for eternity, i'm lucky if i can SHOWER, my goodness no wonder people don't want to become Christians!!!! how can you even function in this world with the idea that you can lose your salvation if you are not good enuff???? i can barely stop from having a FIT after just reading about it! i was reading another thread where somebody was all about quitting masturbation, i mean honestly, what does that have to do with accepting Christ and being saved from hell? I RUN from places like this and no that doesn't mean that i'm not wanting to be good, it means i'm an utter failure at being good, but if y'all aren't then good on ya, but i depend on GOD, not my ability, and if it does depend on my ability then i'm lost, coz believe me i've been sifted like wheat... the gospel tells you to be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect, good luck with that... it's on your 'to do' list right? i'm not angry, just scared, i almost killed myself today and this is probably one of those places that would tell me it's the unpardonable sin or something, bad day and didn't need all this mary poppins 'practically perfect in every way' type Christianity... not to criticize, but that's no way to save the lost, it's a way to lose the saved!!!

Well it seems that we have all been tarred with the same brush, not everyone here agrees with everything that is discussed, there are many opinions and thoughts.
It seems to me you have unfairly judged many people here, i think you need to do some research before jumping the gun.

God bless
Dan

zoeflower wrote:This is the scariest Christian forum I have ever read!!!!! so all you people are out there feeding the poor and visiting folk in prison and stuff? man oh man i can barely get out of bed... and i'm so crazy and demon riddled that every thought is a sin and every feeling a fear, and you people say i need works to not be damned for eternity, i'm lucky if i can SHOWER, my goodness no wonder people don't want to become Christians!!!! how can you even function in this world with the idea that you can lose your salvation if you are not good enuff???? i can barely stop from having a FIT after just reading about it! i was reading another thread where somebody was all about quitting masturbation, i mean honestly, what does that have to do with accepting Christ and being saved from hell? I RUN from places like this and no that doesn't mean that i'm not wanting to be good, it means i'm an utter failure at being good, but if y'all aren't then good on ya, but i depend on GOD, not my ability, and if it does depend on my ability then i'm lost, coz believe me i've been sifted like wheat... the gospel tells you to be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect, good luck with that... it's on your 'to do' list right? i'm not angry, just scared, i almost killed myself today and this is probably one of those places that would tell me it's the unpardonable sin or something, bad day and didn't need all this mary poppins 'practically perfect in every way' type Christianity... not to criticize, but that's no way to save the lost, it's a way to lose the saved!!!

Would that be my thread? lol

Stopping masturbation or being good has got nothing to do with accepting Christ, orienting your life to Christ makes good freely flow from it - hence why people want to stop their sinful ways.

zoeflower wrote:
This is the scariest Christian forum I have ever read!!!!! so all you people are out there feeding the poor and visiting folk in prison and stuff? man oh man i can barely get out of bed... and i'm so crazy and demon riddled that every thought is a sin and every feeling a fear, and you people say i need works to not be damned for eternity, i'm lucky if i can SHOWER, my goodness no wonder people don't want to become Christians!!!! how can you even function in this world with the idea that you can lose your salvation if you are not good enuff???? i can barely stop from having a FIT after just reading about it! i was reading another thread where somebody was all about quitting masturbation, i mean honestly, what does that have to do with accepting Christ and being saved from hell? I RUN from places like this and no that doesn't mean that i'm not wanting to be good, it means i'm an utter failure at being good, but if y'all aren't then good on ya, but i depend on GOD, not my ability, and if it does depend on my ability then i'm lost, coz believe me i've been sifted like wheat... the gospel tells you to be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect, good luck with that... it's on your 'to do' list right? i'm not angry, just scared, i almost killed myself today and this is probably one of those places that would tell me it's the unpardonable sin or something, bad day and didn't need all this mary poppins 'practically perfect in every way' type Christianity... not to criticize, but that's no way to save the lost, it's a way to lose the saved!!!

err....in English please?

zoeflower wrote:
This is the scariest Christian forum I have ever read!!!!! so all you people are out there feeding the poor and visiting folk in prison and stuff? man oh man i can barely get out of bed... and i'm so crazy and demon riddled that every thought is a sin and every feeling a fear, and you people say i need works to not be damned for eternity, i'm lucky if i can SHOWER, my goodness no wonder people don't want to become Christians!!!! how can you even function in this world with the idea that you can lose your salvation if you are not good enuff???? i can barely stop from having a FIT after just reading about it! i was reading another thread where somebody was all about quitting masturbation, i mean honestly, what does that have to do with accepting Christ and being saved from hell? I RUN from places like this and no that doesn't mean that i'm not wanting to be good, it means i'm an utter failure at being good, but if y'all aren't then good on ya, but i depend on GOD, not my ability, and if it does depend on my ability then i'm lost, coz believe me i've been sifted like wheat... the gospel tells you to be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect, good luck with that... it's on your 'to do' list right? i'm not angry, just scared, i almost killed myself today and this is probably one of those places that would tell me it's the unpardonable sin or something, bad day and didn't need all this mary poppins 'practically perfect in every way' type Christianity... not to criticize, but that's no way to save the lost, it's a way to lose the saved!!!

err....in English please?

wow and you attack somebody scared and suicidal... i'm glad you defended yourself tho, so y'all are ok with yourselves... oh well, i wouldn't join a club that would have me as a member anyway, tho it's at times like this i'm ashamed to call myself a Christian... don't bother answer me, i won't be back

Zoeflower, you're welcome to be a part. You might find that it's more effective to introduce yourself to people and enter into conversations before declaring that everybody else are bad people and trying to wield guilt and manipulation to take other people down for whatever purpose it serves for you. Just a thought. If you'd like to start over again and say hi, I'm pretty sure everyone's willing to give you a chance and be an encouragement. It's up to you though. Whatever works for you.

zoeflower wrote:wow and you attack somebody scared and suicidal... i'm glad you defended yourself tho, so y'all are ok with yourselves... oh well, i wouldn't join a club that would have me as a member anyway, tho it's at times like this i'm ashamed to call myself a Christian... don't bother answer me, i won't be back

I'm not a Christian but over the years I have found this forum a place where people are generally respectful and go to great lengths to elucidate their points of view and accommodate those of others. It may be the case that this is not an ideal place for someone who is scared and suicidal but that is perhaps due to there not really being many people turning up and declaring they are scared and suicidal, the forum may become more accommodating to these issues through more interaction with yourself.

I wouldn't consider myself as having mental health issues but both my wife and father have had very severe issues that have led to several suicide attempts and feelings similar to what you describe. Whilst public forums can provide support I don't feel it is a particularly useful medium in alleviating these feelings, at least not in a direct approach.

Perhaps if you were to pick out one or two more specific issues of the many issues you have with this space and engage with those making these claims you may gain an understanding of why they post these things.

That aside, my thoughts are with you and whilst I may not be able to comprehend how you are feeling I do hope that you feel more contented with life soon.

Pro--I am so sorry to hear of your wife and fathers detrimental situations That is very saddening and, though I know you're not a Christian, I will pray for them to find some peace at some point in some way best for them. I hope you can find support and understanding here with us.

Zoeflower -- no one was attacking you. They were simply asking you to be clearer in your statement.

I've never had a real-life apologetics with atheists, but I've had some over the internet. Wow. Every single atheist in the world must be on YouTube constantly, flaming every single video that even slightly has religious content in it or posting videos spreading their beliefs. By the way, those videos are oftentimes clips from Family Guy, Real Time with Bill Maher, and Monty Python. I've even seen ones that apparently take these seriously go over to videos of lectures by William Lane Craig, Dinesh D'Souza, and other scholars just to say "Wow, this guy's a moron." As I said numerous times, most of their arguments are simply illogical insults that they spew towards people instead of a serious discussion.

Now, back to real life. I've never really had an apologetic experience IRL, but I've tried to by blatantly holding "What's So Great About Christianity" when I walk down the hall. There are plenty of times where I could have instigated a conversation ("Did you ever hear about this book?" "Do you believe in God?") but I didn't because then I would look like I'm pushing my faith on them. Plus, I'm not at the age where most people are thinking about religion (I'm a teenager) and many people aren't aware that there are great apologetic books out there.

Is there any good way to instigate a conversation or anything like that towards an atheist? Because I'm afraid of starting one because then I'll look like I'm forcing my religion onto people.