Evidence for God from Science

Since it is clear and agreed upon by all ( I think) that the Sabbath is NOT a salvation issue, I think its time to agree to disagree and to leave it as a matter of personal conscience and understanding, yes?

PaulSacramento wrote:Since it is clear and agreed upon by all ( I think) that the Sabbath is NOT a salvation issue, I think its time to agree to disagree and to leave it as a matter of personal conscience and understanding, yes?

Paul, the problem we have here, is that Bav's interpretation doesn't allow sabbath worship to be a matter of personal conscience. According to Bav, all other Sabbaths are a matter of conscience. Just not the Saturday sabbath. The whole point being missed here, is that Jesus Christ is our Sabbath rest. He alone is the Sabbath. He is our rest. Not some day of the week. How can one live by the spirit, when one is holding to the legalism of obeying a sabbath day?

The whole point being missed here, is that Jesus Christ is our Sabbath rest. He is our rest. Not some day of the week. How can one live by the spirit, when one is holding to the legalism of obeying a sabbath day?

I couldn't have put it any better myself.

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Since it is clear and agreed upon by all ( I think) that the Sabbath is NOT a salvation issue, I think its time to agree to disagree and to leave it as a matter of personal conscience and understanding, yes?

Paul, the problem we have here, is that Bav's interpretation doesn't allow sabbath worship to be a matter of personal conscience. According to Bav, all other Sabbaths are a matter of conscience. Just not the Saturday sabbath. The whole point being missed here, is that Jesus Christ is our Sabbath rest. He alone is the Sabbath. He is our rest. Not some day of the week. How can one live by the spirit, when one is holding to the legalism of obeying a sabbath day?

I agree, I just don't think that you'll convince any Adventist or "sabbatarian" of that.

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Since it is clear and agreed upon by all ( I think) that the Sabbath is NOT a salvation issue, I think its time to agree to disagree and to leave it as a matter of personal conscience and understanding, yes?

Paul, the problem we have here, is that Bav's interpretation doesn't allow sabbath worship to be a matter of personal conscience. According to Bav, all other Sabbaths are a matter of conscience. Just not the Saturday sabbath. The whole point being missed here, is that Jesus Christ is our Sabbath rest. He alone is the Sabbath. He is our rest. Not some day of the week. How can one live by the spirit, when one is holding to the legalism of obeying a sabbath day?

I agree, I just don't think that you'll convince any Adventist or "sabbatarian" of that.

Paul, I'm beyond trying to convince anyone in this thread. I'm with neo on this. I'm absolutely willing to let this be a matter of conscience. If one wants to make one day more important, or every day as the same. Just be convinced in your mind, and conscience. I myself, see every day as the same. And every day is a blessing from God. And my conscience couldn't be any more clear on that.

Bav, on your last post let me say this. I still do not think you are absorbing the points I made. I still do not see the evidence that you have tried to link together, it is hung by only thing "your understanding and conjecture". Please I mean no disrespect. I said that earlier and I will say it again. i do not think that you have made a sound case for your position. I think there are gaps in your argument and I think you will come to realize if you don't already. My participation in this post is not to convince you Bav, I pray that Christ alone should do that with his divine wisdom and peace. I think we all need corrections (me included) and we all should learn.

And thus saying, I think enough has been said on the matter. I wanted to comment on more points in your last post but have decided not to. I therefore do not want to prolong it now as it would lead to an argument which will be born out of frustration rather than academic or intellectual interest.

And I think we'll get along fine, if we ever sit down face to face or discussed something else here, on the forum. In any case, I want to say that I wasn't offended as you seem to think. Arguments have a habit of spiking up when they are prolonged and both sides are talking past each other.

You are a brother in Christ and even while you think that I am disobeying God's commandment, I do not think this is an issue which should draw lines among us. I am sure you mean your best when you spoke about "getting along fine". Here's to it...cheers.

BavarianWheels wrote:http://www.romeschallenge.com

Bav, I was wandering through the threads and saw this one and read through it. Your POV is the exact same as my own. I have heard many of the same arguments before that have been brought against you in this thread and I disagree with them all. As time has passed I have reflected on this subject from time to time and what has been revealed to my mind and understanding is this simple rationale.

If you believe in God and that his son Jesus died for our sins which of his commandments is it now ok to intentionally not obey and still be saved?

Exo 20
1)I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2)Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
3)Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
4)Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
5)Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
6)Thou shalt not kill.
7)Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8 )Thou shalt not steal.
9)Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10)Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

My position flows from Matthew.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Jesus and the apostles brought a new understanding to light about Gods laws and commandments. They showed that it was not simply the following of the law by the letter that counted to God. It was following it in its spirit and in your mind.
Commiting adultery is as much a sin today as it was before God spoke the commandment in sinai. Stealing is still a sin. My understanding is that sin is the breaking of Gods commanments as much today as it was before God spoke the command or after Christ came to pay for our sins. The fact that Christ did come and he did make the sacrifice and that we believe it, does not give us the right to stop obeying his Fathers commands, ever.

KBC, Jesus Christ IS the believer's Sabbath. We rest in HIM!!
How is Jesus our Sabbath Rest?

RickD wrote:KBC, Jesus Christ IS the believer's Sabbath. We rest in HIM!!
How is Jesus our Sabbath Rest?

I'm sorry Rick but we will have to simply agree to disagree. I know you have the best interest of others in mind but in this case I am going to go further than you think is necessary. What could I possibly lose by following Christ example? I'm fairly certain the Father won't kick me to the curb for honoring all ten of the commandments he gave since Christ himself honored them and said that he abided in his fathers love because of it.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Mar 10:17-21 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Notice in the following 3 verses from the final book of the bible that it is written to not only have faith in Crist but to keep the commandments of the Father as well.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:12-14 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

KBC, you wrote:

If you believe in God and that his son Jesus died for our sins which of his commandments is it now ok to intentionally not obey and still be saved?

You are asking if it's now ok to intentionally not obey the commandment to keep the sabbath, and still be saved. So, according to you, I, and every other moderator here are not saved, because we don't "obey the commandment to keep the sabbath". BavarianWheels, who is a seventh day Adventist doesn't even go that far.
KBCid, I guess you are on a website whos owner(Rich Deem) isn't saved, and all the volunteer moderators aren't saved, and 99 percent if the members aren't saved. What are you, a true, saved, commandment obeying believer, doing here among a bunch of unsaved heretics?

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

K,
Why would you assume that Jesus' commands are in Exodus 20?
Why not take John 15 contextually?
This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you (John 15:12)
Audience: The 12 disciples.

Mar 10:17-21 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

So, K, have you sold all you have and given to the poor? Better get busy. You make grave exegetical errors when you fail to rightly divide the word of truth. You put a yoke on yourself and others you cannot bear.

Jesus command for us, TODAY, given through our apostle, Paul, is to believe on Christ. And so, to repent of any notion that law keeping, or Sabbath keeping will make us fit for heaven. Asking which of the commands is OK to break is just a loaded question. It is a sad, depraved way to force the argument to support legalism.

The fact that Christ did come and he did make the sacrifice and that we believe it, does not give us the right to stop obeying his Fathers commands, ever.

This is not at all how things operate under the dispensation of grace. It is trying to extract grace from legalism. And it is as dead today as it was in Galatia.

RickD wrote:KBC, you wrote:

If you believe in God and that his son Jesus died for our sins which of his commandments is it now ok to intentionally not obey and still be saved?

You are asking if it's now ok to intentionally not obey the commandment to keep the sabbath, and still be saved. So, according to you, I, and every other moderator here are not saved, because we don't "obey the commandment to keep the sabbath". BavarianWheels, who is a seventh day Adventist doesn't even go that far.
KBCid, I guess you are on a website whos owner(Rich Deem) isn't saved, and all the volunteer moderators aren't saved, and 99 percent if the members aren't saved. What are you, a true, saved, commandment obeying believer, doing here among a bunch of unsaved heretics?

I would not consider myself saved. There is much that I must still get an understanding of and as I stated awhile back I am trying to test these things by give and take discussion. The question of whether it is ok to not obey the ten commandments, I thought was a valid question since the sabbath command is part of the 1o but apparently it is also a touchy one as it can be contrued to be something other than what I intended. My part of the discussion should not be taken as an assault since I am for sure the last one to throw a stone in this case as I am not yet obeying it either. Whatever you determine is right in this case I will abide.

The question of whether it is ok to not obey the ten commandments, I thought was a valid question since the sabbath command is part of the 1o but apparently it is also a touchy one as it can be contrued to be something other than what I intended.

Of course it's "ok" to obey the ten commandments. But, obeying the commandments doesn't save anyone. If adherence to the 10 commandments, insured salvation, then Jesus would not have had to die for the sins of the world.

KBCid wrote:
I would not consider myself saved. There is much that I must still get an understanding of and as I stated awhile back I am trying to test these things by give and take discussion.

Whatever you determine is right in this case I will abide.

It's not what I determine to be right. What did God do, so that you, KBCid, may have eternal life?

John 3:16 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a] only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

KBC, It's simple.
How does someone become saved?

I think and hope all can agree that Shabbat observance (as well as the observance of any laws as a whole, whether Torah, 10 Commandments, NT commandments, etc.) is not a salvation issue. And we must always keep in mind Paul's principle he spelled out at Colossians 2:16 and Romans 14:23.
With that being said, I don't see anything in the New Testament abrogating the keeping of Shabbat.

With that being said, I don't see anything in the New Testament abrogating the keeping of Shabbat.

Shabbat means, "Jewish Sabbath". So I agree with you. The Jews can keep the Jewish Sabbath.
Believers can also observe the Sabbath rest by believing on Christ, who is our Sabbath rest.