Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote: G, have you read Romans?

If I am living by the spirit, loving God and my neighbor, am I going to want to steal, rape, murder, etc.? G, my conscience is clear when I eat a ham sandwich. I'm pretty sure the Holy Spirit & my conscience would convict me if I murdered someone. You're grasping at straws now.

Yes I have amigo... And it says to follow G-d's ways..

Romans 2:13, “for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.”

Romans 3:31, “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.”

Romans 6:1-2, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?”

Romans 7:1, “Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?”

Romans 7:7, What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

Romans 7:12, “Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.”

Romans 7:25 Thanks be to God! — through Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord! To sum up: with my mind, I am a slave of God’s Torah; but with my old nature, I am a slave of sin’s “Torah.”

RickD, somehow Noah knew which foods were unclean. Apparently the Lord at some time communicated to Noah what was forbidden to eat.

Genesis 7:1,2,8, 8:20: "Noah, 'Come into the ark ..... 2 ..... take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female; two each of animals that are unclean ..... 8 Of clean animals, of animals that are unclean ....." 8:20: "Then Noah built an altar ..... and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings ....." --- New King James Version

Our Creator considered certain animals as forbidden to eat long before Moses was even born, and long before the Mosaic laws were formally established. The implication seems to be that the forbidden foods always were and always will be forbidden to eat. Apparently more clean animals were brought into the ark than unclean ones to provide edible food for Noah and his family during the year long voyage. This is why I say that the food laws predate the Mosaic food laws. Yes, there was no officially declared food law before Moses, but since Noah and his family were the only ones considered righteous during and after the Flood, it seems that a person in our day now would want to copycat Noah's dietary habits to at least try to be righteous, since that diet very much pleased the Lord.

Yes, I know, there was no officially declared Sabbath law before Moses. I should not have called it a law for people to obey living before Moses. But with our present day relatively vast knowledge of the Bible, it seems that Sabbath observance does predate Moses because God the Father (and Jesus, too, since they are in agreement over major issues) kept the Sabbath. Verses in the OT and NT reveal that God, and therefore Jesus, too, do not change. Therefore Both are still keeping the Sabbath, it would at least seem. Verses in the NT command us to mimic and copycat what Jesus, our Lord, does. Therefore it seems more than likely, that we, too, should keep the Sabbath, to be in agreement with Him.

I always thought that the 10 Commandments were part of God's laws.

Yes, I know that God made a covenant with Israel and not the fathers of the Israelites. Concerning us, though, the Lord wants to "graft" us gentile Christians into Israel, and therefore logically into what Israel was expected to do (or obey) as His chosen nation (Galatians 3:29).

People in this discussion use Matthew 5:17 often I notice. Has ANYBODY here really, really invested 5 minutes to look up what the Greek for "fulfill" is? I doubt it. We are supposed to be discussing eternal matters here. With eternal consequences at stake it is best to do things right the first time, and not to learn things the hard way, possibly with irreversible eternal consequences. If anyone has the bravery to see what fulfill means in the Greek, they will see that it refers overwhelmingly to simply adding more to something, and not fulfilling in a way that makes Christians no longer need to individually continue obeying the law.

There is nothing in the OT about Jesus doing something that would relieve believers of obeying the law. There is something, though, about Jesus doing something about the law. MAGNIFYING IT. IMPROVING IT. ADDING TO IT. God the Father is referring to His Son, Jesus Christ in Isaiah 42:1-4,6,7,19-21.

Isaiah 42:21: "Jehovah is delighted for His righteousness' sake; He WILL MAGNIFY the Law and make it honorable" --- Green's Literal Translation. Isaiah predicted that Jesus would MAGNIFY the law. No Old Testament prophet EVER even remotely hinted that Jesus would remove from each Christian the need to individually continue obeying the law. Other respected translations such as the John Nelson Darby Translation, A Conservative Version, English Jubilee 2000, New Heart English Bible, World English Bible, English Revised Version, American Standard Version with Strong's, Updated King James Version, American King James Version, KJV Pure Cambridge Edition, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, Julia Smith Translation, Noah Webster's KJV revision, Geneva Bible, Bishop's Bible, Coverdale's Translation, American Standard Version, Leeser Old Testament, Young's Literal Translation, Concordant Literal Version, and the Interlinear Hebrew Old Testament also use the word "magnify" in Isaiah 42:21.

Here are some examples of How Jesus MAGNIFIED the law and ADDED TO IT MORE FULLY, FILLING THE LAW MORE FULLY:

In His famous Sermon on the Mount, He added to or refined (improved) the law at least eight times: 1) Matthew 5:22: refining further the law prohibiting murder, merely being angry with someone without a cause or seriously insulting someone is now a very serious sin, 2) 5:28: just looking at a woman lustfully is now equivalent to adultery, 3) 5:32: whoever marries a divorced woman now commits adultery (there may be one exception), 4) 5:34: never swear at all, 5) 5:39-42: if you are slapped on one cheek, let yourself be slapped on the other cheek and do not refuse to loan or give to others if they ask for a loan or help (there are obvious common sense exceptions since some people might argue that Jesus does not expect us to unnecessarily severely injure ourselves or damage or ruin ourselves financially giving to drug addicts, financial predators, etc.), 6) 5:44: instead of hating our enemies, we are now instructed to love, bless, pray for, and do good to our enemies, 7) 6:15: we must now forgive others instead of holding a permanent grudge, and 7:1: do not judge others unless you want to be judged by the same criteria.

I would almost bet $100 that no one here, still, will look up what the Greek for "fulfill" in Matthew 5:17 really means using a Strong's concordance or Thayer's lexicon. Maybe I should bet $1,000.

Nothing above was copied from someone else's site.

I love the following passage in Colossians 2.

• 6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
  
  8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
  
  9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, a not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
  
  13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
  
  16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

K.. Not you now too...

In the context of Colossians 2 we can clearly see in verse 8 that false teachers had engaged the Colossians to change G-d's laws into their own deceitful doctrine and theology.

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

Therefore we can clearly see that Paul was warning the Colossians of the false teachers that would judge them in connection with eating and drinking, or in regard to a Biblical festival Colossians 2:16-17. The Biblical festivals and Sabbaths were certainly not human tradition. They were ordained by G-d. These are a shadow of the things that are COMING in Christ. Not something in the past, something for the future..

Colossians 2:16-17
So don’t let anyone pass judgment on you in connection with eating and drinking, or in regard to a Biblical festival or Rosh-Hodesh or Shabbat. 17 These are a shadow of things that are coming, but the body is of the Messiah.

The Torah will be taught from Jerusalem by Yeshua during the Messianic age (Isaiah 2:2-3; 42:6, Micah 4:2) and all nations will come to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot) there including the other festivals (Zechariah 14:16, Isaiah 56:7, Ezekiel 44:24; 45:17; 46:9-11).

Sign me up...

Or the Apostle Paul's following words in Galatians:

• 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
  ...
  1:11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
  
  13For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased 16to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.
  ...
  2:1 Fourteen years later I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. 2I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain. 3Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. 4[This matter arose] because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you.

Interestingly, this is an issue that has gone back as far as the Apostles themselves in disagreement (Peter's ministry to the Jews vs. Paul's ministry to the Gentiles):

• Gal 2:11 When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
  
  14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
  
  15“We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
  
  17“If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

The Law will always have an eternal place, for it is by it we die and can live in Christ for God.

Wolfgang, you are all over the place with what you're saying. It's starting to seem like you're arguing now just to be argumentative.

Wolfgang wrote:
Yes, there was no officially declared food law before Moses, but since Noah and his family were the only ones considered righteous during and after the Flood, it seems that a person in our day now would want to copycat Noah's dietary habits to at least try to be righteous, since that diet very much pleased the Lord.

"It seems that a person in our day now would want to copycat Noah's dietary habits to at least try to be righteous".
Wolfgang, take a good long look at what you wrote here. I can no longer talk to you about the subject of the law. You need to understand the basics of Christianity, and why Jesus Christ came. Your saying that we should copycat noah's dietary laws to at least try to be righteous, shows me that you have no business trying to understand more complicated issues of a believers faith.

From "Christianity 101", a believer is declared righteous by faith in Christ. Not by dietary habits.

Gman, maybe you could explain this to Wolfgang. He seems to listen to you.

KBC,
I'll get to replying to your question of how I came to believe Jesus is our sabbath rest, when I get a chance. I have to put some stuff together for my reply, which I really can't do on my iPod. In the meantime, you may find this interesting. It's a question asked to and answered by a former Seventh Day Adventist, about why Jesus is our sabbath rest.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- ... h-rest.htm

Gman wrote:K.. Not you now too...

Sorry.

It was this exact issue and Martin Lloyd-Jones' commentary on Romans that allowed Christanity to make complete sense to me.

I thought I knew all about Christianity, up until 18 when the pennies on "God's grace" finally dropped while reading his detailed commentary.

So for those influenced by Messianic Judaism who'd push the other way, it just tugs away at the Christianity I came to know and accept as a divine revelation.

It puts forward a quite different Divine Grace, replacing a "free grace based upon faith in Christ that continually transforms us" out of thankfulness and freedom rather than obligation, with a "free grace in Christ that enables us to keep the Law to which we remain bound."

In the first, the Law is fulfilled, so that it really just doesn't matter. What matters now is an authentic relationship with God that is of the heart, and where we are, rather than needing to keep the letter or wondering if we're sinning by doing something. In the latter, one may be saved, but they are now placing themselves under the yoke of the Law again which only brings condemnation. Of course, if you keep it fully, kudos. I'd like to see one such person besides Christ.

But, as we see over and over again on these forums with moral issues. If you're gay? Hey, God still loves and accepts you. If you masturbate, hey God still loves you. If you look at porn, God still loves you. If you had sex before marriage? God still loves you. If you had children before marriage? God still loves you. If you really buggered your life up? Don't beat yourself up over it. Such just pushes you away from Christ. Just come back to God, and keep openly coming back to Him. Over time, you may be empowered and transformed. Or, you may continue to struggle under own guilt (because the law is on your heart as something you want to keep rather than something you must keep by the letter), but Christ has it all covered.

Adding the Law back into the picture scares us away from God. It also does nothing but give the Accuser more ammo, and a power Christ took away -- the ability to accuse us which makes us feel condemned, depressed and spiritually deflated.

What matters now is just being in Christ as who we are -- our true self, nothing hidden. Everything else is secondary. God'll change our heart, which'll change our lives and who we are.

Kurieuo wrote:
In the first, the Law is fulfilled, so that it really just doesn't matter. What matters now is an authentic relationship with God that is of the heart, and where we are, rather than needing to keep the letter or wondering if we're sinning by doing something. In the latter, one may be saved, but they are now placing themselves under the yoke of the Law again which only brings condemnation. Of course, if you keep it fully, kudos. I'd like to see one such person besides Christ.


It puts forward a quite different Divine Grace, replacing a "free grace based upon faith in Christ that continually transforms us" out of thankfulness and freedom rather than obligation, with a "free grace in Christ that enables us to keep the Law to which we remain bound."


What matters now is just being in Christ as who we are -- our true self, nothing hidden. Everything else is secondary. God'll change our heart, which'll change our lives and who we are.

Kurieuo, where have you been all my life? You complete me!

Kurieuo wrote:Adding the Law back into the picture scares us away from God. It also does nothing but give the Accuser more ammo, and a power Christ took away -- the ability to accuse us which makes us feel condemned, depressed and spiritually deflated.

Can you define what laws are written in our hearts? It is written;

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

And you can't break scripture. So pls. define exactly what laws are written on our hearts or do you still assert that there is no law?

We can't have things both ways. God says there are laws. whether they are written in stone or in our flesh a law is a law. In my mind it is not wise to deny what has been scripturally pointed out about God's laws.

I would say this is a foundational point for any Christian to know whether God expects them to perform under guidelines he calls laws or whether all we have to do is believe and we can just keep on sinning without care. It was an original sin of breaking Gods command in the first place that led to where we are now. How is it possible that God has now changed his mind about sinning? If we are to keep our free will as we were designed then what is to stop one from disobeying God once you go to heaven?

KBCid wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Adding the Law back into the picture scares us away from God. It also does nothing but give the Accuser more ammo, and a power Christ took away -- the ability to accuse us which makes us feel condemned, depressed and spiritually deflated.

Can you define what laws are written in our hearts? It is written;

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

And you can't break scripture. So pls. define exactly what laws are written on our hearts or do you still assert that there is no law?

Those passages were also prophecied by Jeremiah who spoke of the coming new convenant.

A New Convenant was made according Jeremiah 31:31-32, because while God remained faithful, Israel continued to break the Old Covenant (Mosaic Law) and turn from God. It also became common and unheartfelt ritual (as revealed by Jesus when he upturned the marketplace in the temple -- where one could easily purchase an animal to be slaughtered for their sin). The people would sin, travel to the template, pay some money to the priests to slaughter an animal on behalf of them, and then away they went until next time. It became praxis without heartfelt meaning. Yet, God didn't desire meaningly rituals and sacrifice, God desired the heart.

• Jer 31:31-32 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD.

Circumcision is now of the heart through faith in Christ, rather than of the physical flesh. So too God's law is in our heart, rather than being a physical tablet of rules to be kept to remain as one of God's people.

• Jer 31:33-34 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

In Christ, there is a New Covenant. The Old Covenant was weak because it was built upon the Law that only brought God's condemnation and wrath that even further removed us from the love of God. However, the New is everlasting because it is built upon God's grace through Christ who brings love and forgiveness. Love wins in the New where only Righteousness won in the Old. Yet, the New also completes God's Righteousness in Christ.

So what law is now written on our hearts? The moral law is said to be written on our hearts in Romans. Those who keep it of their own accord are said to be a law unto themselves who bear witness to this fact.

Given this, the Mosaic Law was weak in that we could not fulfill it (and it really doesn't necessitate a change of heart), and the moral law is something we generally have regardless of whether we're Christian.

There is only one remaining law, on which all the Law is said to hang; love God, and love one another. The Law of Love.

RickD wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:
In the first, the Law is fulfilled, so that it really just doesn't matter. What matters now is an authentic relationship with God that is of the heart, and where we are, rather than needing to keep the letter or wondering if we're sinning by doing something. In the latter, one may be saved, but they are now placing themselves under the yoke of the Law again which only brings condemnation. Of course, if you keep it fully, kudos. I'd like to see one such person besides Christ.


It puts forward a quite different Divine Grace, replacing a "free grace based upon faith in Christ that continually transforms us" out of thankfulness and freedom rather than obligation, with a "free grace in Christ that enables us to keep the Law to which we remain bound."


What matters now is just being in Christ as who we are -- our true self, nothing hidden. Everything else is secondary. God'll change our heart, which'll change our lives and who we are.

Kurieuo, where have you been all my life? You complete me!

Sorry, I'm married.

About Galatians and circumcision.. Paul was never against the commandment of circumcision. In fact in Romans 2:25 he stated that circumcision actually has VALUE...

Romans 2:25 Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.

In fact we can see that Paul circumcised Timothy in the book of Acts..

Acts 16:1-3 Paul came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was Jewish and a believer but whose father was a Greek. 2 The believers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him. 3 Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

So the problem in Galatians was that we had a group of people that thought they had to become circumcised in order to be saved... A works salvation.. Which we know is wrong... However Paul's point was that we are to be circumcised in the heart first as recorded in Deut 10:16, Deut 30:6 Jer 4:4. This is why he taught against that group in Galatians. Not circumcision itself.. The way it was done.

Kurieuo wrote:

Gman wrote:K.. Not you now too...

Sorry.

It puts forward a quite different Divine Grace, replacing a "free grace based upon faith in Christ that continually transforms us" out of thankfulness and freedom rather than obligation, with a "free grace in Christ that enables us to keep the Law to which we remain bound."

Yes free grace... Whatever that means...

Kurieuo wrote:In the first, the Law is fulfilled, so that it really just doesn't matter. What matters now is an authentic relationship with God that is of the heart, and where we are, rather than needing to keep the letter or wondering if we're sinning by doing something. In the latter, one may be saved, but they are now placing themselves under the yoke of the Law again which only brings condemnation. Of course, if you keep it fully, kudos. I'd like to see one such person besides Christ.

Yes.. The belief here is that G-d's laws are not evil stumbling blocks... They are there simply for our direction.... Instruction in righteousness. Of course no one can do or fulfill all of G-d's laws... That isn't the point. Let's look at examples from Romans..

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Romans 15:4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope.

Or Corinthians..

1 Corinthians 6:9-10, “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Or Matthew...

Matthew 5:17-19, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Kurieuo wrote:IBut, as we see over and over again on these forums with moral issues. If you're gay? Hey, God still loves and accepts you. If you masturbate, hey God still loves you. If you look at porn, God still loves you. If you had sex before marriage? God still loves you. If you had children before marriage? God still loves you. If you really buggered your life up? Don't beat yourself up over it. Such just pushes you away from Christ. Just come back to God, and keep openly coming back to Him. Over time, you may be empowered and transformed. Or, you may continue to struggle under own guilt (because the law is on your heart as something you want to keep rather than something you must keep by the letter), but Christ has it all covered.

Adding the Law back into the picture scares us away from God. It also does nothing but give the Accuser more ammo, and a power Christ took away -- the ability to accuse us which makes us feel condemned, depressed and spiritually deflated.

What matters now is just being in Christ as who we are -- our true self, nothing hidden. Everything else is secondary. God'll change our heart, which'll change our lives and who we are.

We will never be totally perfect.... That isn't the point... The point is here is that we do our best to obey so that we don't kill one another plus we want unity.. Here is how we know that he remains united with us by the Spirit whom he gave us.

1 John 5:3-4, “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.”

Gman wrote:So the problem in Galatians was that we had a group of people that thought they had to become circumcised in order to be saved... A works salvation.. Which we know is wrong... However Paul's point was that we are to be circumcised in the heart first as recorded in Deut 10:16, Deut 30:6 Jer 4:4. This is why he taught against that group in Galatians. Not circumcision itself.. The way it was done.

Given my last post regarding the heart, and your understanding of heart circumcision, perhaps we're not as far apart as it might initially appear? Or if we are, we might ignore the larger gap to agree on one point...

That is, it is our heart God desires, and not rituals or laws although such may nonetheless be an outward expression of our love for God.