Jehovah witnesses

[Domenic]

As you have said...Jesus is the FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION...God the Father was never born, he always was. Jesus is a God, but he is not the father...You said it yourself.

Colossians 1:15-16 New English Translation (NET Bible)
The Supremacy of Christ
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation,

[PaulSacramento]

As you have said...Jesus is the FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION...God the Father was never born, he always was. Jesus is a God, but he is not the father...You said it yourself.

Colossians 1:15-16 New English Translation (NET Bible)
The Supremacy of Christ
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation,

Yep and what is born of God is...

[Domenic]

since this thread is about Jehovah's Witnesses: They also teach Adam, and eve ate a fruit.

[Lonewolf]

I have been reading the post on this thread. I see most members believe Jesus is God, and God is Jesus.
I'm a very simple person. I test things in the Bible, which i believe is the word of GodIt has to make simple sense. 1+ 1must
equal. 2.
Walk through how my mind works...just remember, I'm not as smart as most of you.

Jesus, the one you call God, I agree Jesus is a God. Do I believe Jesus has an identity problem? No I do not, nor do i believe he makes things up. Let me take you for a little walk;
You, and me are followers of Jesus. We are two the the twelve who followed him two thousand ears ago. ready? I'll call you Bill, and you call me Tom. Lets assume Jesus, is God, and God is Jesus.

"Hay Bill, were did the master go?"
'He's over there by that big rock Tom."
"What is he doing?"
"He's praying to himself."
The following day were all walking, and talking. Jesus says," Don't pray to me, but pray to me through me."
"Bill, what the heck does he mean by that?"
Darn if I know?"
We stop for a short lunch of fish, and bread.
Jesus says, "I am greater than me."
"Bill, how can he be greater than what he is?"
"I don't know Tom...but if he keeps talking this way, I'm going to catch the next camel home."

Jesus is on the cross. He says, "Me, why have you forsaken me?"

"You ready to go back to fishing Tom?"
"yes i am."


As my simple mind goes...if Jesus is God, and God is Jesus, why did he; pray to the father?
Why did he say..."Do not pray to me, but to the father through me."
Why did he say..."The Father is greater than I."
Why did he say..."father, why have you forsaken me?"
And may other things about the father. I know I'm not smart...but I also know I'm not stupid. So help me out here. prove to me Jesus is god, and God is Jesus.

Hey Dom, how you doing

Personally, I had the same questions there for a while after having a few conversational debates with a friend of mine who's JW. But after reading carefully through the gospels and Paul's letters, it has become very obvious to me that the Lord and God go hand in hand in every letter, in every blessing, in every teaching. and every salvation hope that I read in the NT. I have also come to the conclusion that even though God could of sent anyone to die for us, the sacrifice and redeeming work would not have been perfect unless He did it Himself.

I can't help but to think that if Jesus would outright claimed to have been God, just how much that would of carried Him in a monotheistic Jewish world and/or a world full of false gods., image if today God would of have come as a man and claimed to be God., could you imagine what would happen?

God works in mysterious ways to get His message across, how much more to bring His redeeming work to fruition and completion.

But the truest way I find my Lord to be God, is the personal experience within me., all things make sense as they happen when I experience them and see with sight that He gives me., if that wasn't so, then I might as well be a Buddhist or something, meditating on things, as opposed to understanding spiritually a Life that I am to Live.

I know that what I'm saying is more from the personal side, more so than from a theological, scriptural verse by verse type of quotation, but maybe that's just it, that we have become like the pharisees, allegorical and such, and we have dropped the part about being spiritual., it's almost like the sabbath., the sabbath was made for man and not the other way around., so too, God in human form came for us, so that we could in every which way understand Him, and have communion with Him., how else can you really have full communion with someone unless you know that person personally? Remember Immanuel? God with us.

[Domenic]

I'm doing fine lonewolf, how are you doing?
We don't agree on Jesus being God the father, but that is something you have to work out. I know Jesus to be the son of God. True, Jesus is also a God. Have you ever tried to figure out why Jesus had to die, and be dead for three days? It was really two and one half days...but the Jews count a half day as a full day.
i spent a lot of time on this part of the story...here is what i see:

If father said, "Domenic, I want you to die for three day to save all of my children...millions and millions of them, and I'll bring you back to life." I's say, "Sure father, I'm your man...the only thing I don't like about doing this thing for you, is the Romans always beat the tare out of people before they kill them. I'm not much on pain. Can you make it were it don't hurt?" "Don't worry son, I hear after the first twenty or so lases of the whip you don't feel it any more."
I don't think there is a Christian who would not do this for father. I thought for about four years on this subject. I felt there had to be more to why Jesus had to die. Three days did not seem like a big deal to save all of us. Death for three days, or three thousand years is also nothing to fear...there had to be more behind this little three day thing to save the human family.
I went to Father, and said..."I know you like to keep some things to yourself, but if this is not one of your top secret things, can you tell what the heck is going on...please?" I repeated this request for about three days...One day i just knew. It was clear to me why Jesus had to die, and be dead for three days.
Jesus was a perfect man. His seed was from Father. He had no sin in him. Jesus also had a perfect seed within him. If he had children, they would also have been perfect, and not have aged, or died. When Jesus died, a whole unborn perfect human race died...that one for this one. Here is a medical fact. When a man dies it takes two to three days for his sperm(seed) to die...that is why he had to be dead that long.
I did not believe this for a time. I kept going back to father..."Is that what it's about? Is that why my lord had to die? It took me a few months before i understood that was the reason. After that I went through a time of crying. Yeah I know, grown men don't cry. I still imagine the faces of the perfect beautiful children at play, and hear their laughter. They died for the likes of us. I wished I had not asked father to tell me why Jesus had to die. I have often gone back to Father and asked…“Take my life, and let one of these live. All of us together are not worth one of these.” It still makes me cry to think about it them. If I am in Fathers new system, I will pray to father every day…”Let these be born through us. Let us be used to save them.” I know our lord Jesus must hurt too. I really feel like a piece of nothing knowing they went into death to save us. Most of us hurt when we hear about an abortion…that is what this was…All those beautiful unborn children. Father knows I will never stop asking to bring them back as long as I am alive.
Anyway. That is how I see the death of Our lord Jesus. I’m sorry to bring this up. I just have to talk about it once and a while.

[Lonewolf]

I suppose the first thing to question on your response is who or what is a god, under your "learned" understanding?

Archangel(s)?

Son(s)?

First creations(s)?

Power(s)?

King(s)?

Then the next question would be why die?
Why pay the price of sin with blood?

Then the next would be why 3 days in the grave?
What's the significance of that?

And, did He really die?

[1over137]

Can you show us where Scriptures support your ideas?

[Domenic]

Can you show us where Scriptures support your ideas?

Which ideas? I have many

[1over137]

Can you show us where Scriptures support your ideas?

Which ideas? I have many

You can start with this

Jesus was a perfect man. His seed was from Father. He had no sin in him. Jesus also had a perfect seed within him. If he had children, they would also have been perfect, and not have aged, or died. When Jesus died, a whole unborn perfect human race died...that one for this one. Here is a medical fact. When a man dies it takes two to three days for his sperm(seed) to die...that is why he had to be dead that long.

I see it as a mere speculation that the reason why Jesus was dead 3 days is as you posted above.

[Domenic]

Can you show us where Scriptures support your ideas?

Which ideas? I have many

You can start with this

Jesus was a perfect man. His seed was from Father. He had no sin in him. Jesus also had a perfect seed within him. If he had children, they would also have been perfect, and not have aged, or died. When Jesus died, a whole unborn perfect human race died...that one for this one. Here is a medical fact. When a man dies it takes two to three days for his sperm(seed) to die...that is why he had to be dead that long.

I see it as a mere speculation that the reason why Jesus was dead 3 days is as you posted above.

The Hebrew writer speaks of the mature, who “because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil” If something is explicitly stated, then what discerning is needed? We just take it at face value and do it or not. To discern, however, is to apply reason, to think it out and through, to draw conclusions based upon principle. Discerning “good and evil” is, of course, vital to one’s spiritual growth and maturity. To do it, however, requires drawing conclusions that are not explicitly stated. Does anyone seriously want to argue that “necessary inferences” are not vital for understanding God’s will? If so, they’ll need a good explanation (based on inference, mind you) for Galatians 5 and Hebrews 5, both of which require drawing conclusions about good and evil beyond what the text explicitly states. We may debate the particulars of the conclusions, but the principle here is absolute, and it requires reasoning from implications.

Reasoning: Jesus was a perfect man. His seed was perfect. If he had children, they would have been perfect. It does take up to three days for a mans seed to die, after the man is dead. A perfect unborn race was in Jesus. That unborn race did die.

[Mallz]

Here is a medical fact. When a man dies it takes two to three days for his sperm(seed) to die...that is why he had to be dead that long

Wrong, it takes hours for sperm to die in a corpse. Only if the testes are put in below freezing conditions, and the subject had a natural or un-traumatic death, will viable sperm last longer. Sperm has a lifespan around a couple months in a living body and then dies and is recycled by the body or ejaculated out.
I seriously hope you understand why Jesus was dead for three days, which had nothing to do with his sperm. And by your reasoning, you should be on the fit of suicide by grief because billions upon billions of your so called 'perfect human race' have been killed naturally by the body creating and recycling/ejaculating sperm multiple times a year. Also, humanity is not defined by a sperm, or an egg, but the conjoining of the two in conception which is when the Father creates and 'attaches' our spiritual selves. As humans we can create a physical soul, God creates our spiritual soul.

His seed was from Father.

Wrong again. Jesus was fully human, and fully God. He had both natures. His seed was fully human as his body and spirit fully Divine.

If he had children, they would also have been perfect, and not have aged, or died

Totally contradicts what God decrease by setting a lifespan to humanity in the O.T. The bodies we have and the body Jesus had are and were mortal. Jesus obtained the resurrected immortal body after he rose from the dead which we will all obtain. His body during his life on Earth was like ours.

[PaulSacramento]

I'm doing fine lonewolf, how are you doing?
We don't agree on Jesus being God the father, but that is something you have to work out. I know Jesus to be the son of God. True, Jesus is also a God.

Here is the typical JW answer above.
NO ONE has ever said that Jesus is His Father, that is pure JW speak.
Create a FALSE doctrine of the Trinity then refute THAT one and not the real Trinity doctrine.
It is quite simple:
Jesus is begotten of God and what is begotten has the same nature of what begets. The SON has the SAME NATURE of the FATHER.
If the Father is God, then the Son is God.
It is really just that simple.
To say that Jesus is A god is to deny the UNION of Father and Son and that is unbiblical.
Quite simply Jesus and the Father are ONE, which means BOTH have the same nature and both are GOD, not Two Gods because of their perfect union, but ONE God.

[LittleHamster]

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[PaulSacramento]

i wonder what would happen if there becomes more than 144 thousand jehovah witnesses?

Jesus Christ ! I just read most of this thread.

I recently talked about the original post with the JW's. They said the non-144k will just end up on the earth for ever as part of the new kingdom set up by JC.

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Yes, the take the 144K NUMBER literally from Revelation BUT not the the description of WHO they are.
Typical JW selective interpretation of scripture to justify heir doctrines.

[abelcainsbrother]

Jehovah. For all of you. Get out your bible and follow along,this song is for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qT2wpjS7SU