Evidence for God from Science

jpbg33 wrote:If God cut the Jews off for unbelief then we will be cut off for unbelief as well and if we die in unbelief we well not got to heaven. John 3:16 for God so loved the world that who so ever believeth in him should not perish but have ever lasting life. You must believe to live for ever in heaven.

Let's see... The bible says in john 3:16, that when I believe in Jesus Christ, I have eternal life. And since eternal life cannot end, then since I have believed on Christ, I will live eternally.

And John 5:24 says:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

But the gospel according to jpbg33 says that in order for me to have eternal life, I must not only believe in Christ, but I must continue to believe until the very moment that I die. So according to the gospel of jpbg33, I'm judged on my belief at the moment I die. So according to the gospel of jpbg33, John 5:24 is wrong, because I haven't passed from death unto life when I believed on Jesus Christ.

Let's see...do I believe what the bible says, and what Jesus says in John 5:24? Or do I believe in the gospel according to jpbg33, which contradicts Jesus' very words in John 5:24?


Now you are preaching a false gospel jpbg33!!

If you read in both of those verses. The first one it says believeth and in the second one it says believes so which are both talking about present belief. the first one literally means while you believe you have ever lasting life. the other one say people who believes in Jesus will go to heaven that is presently believing.
nether of them said believed.

A comment of Uriah Smith from his book 'Daniel and the Revelation' on Revelation 14:10,11
The verse that jpbg33 like to refer to..

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

These shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. When is this torment inflicted? Revelation 19: 20 shows that
at the Second Coming of Christ there is a manifestation of fiery judgments which may be called a lake of fire and brimstone, into which the beast and the false prophet are cast alive. This can refer only to the destruction visited upon them at the beginning, not at the end, of the thousand years.
There is a remarkable passage in Isaiah to which we are obliged to refer in explanation of the phraseology of the threatening of the third angel, and which unquestionably describes scenes to take place here at the second advent and in the desolate state of the earth during the thousand years following.
That the language of Revelation was borrowed from this prophecy can hardly fail to be seen. After describing the Lord's anger upon the nations, the great slaughter of their armies, and the departing of the heavens as a scroll, the prophet says: "It is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.
And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up forever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever." Isaiah 34: 8-10. Since it is expressly revealed that there is to be a lake of fire in which all sinners perish at the end of the thousand years, we can only conclude that the destruction of the living
wicked at the beginning of this period, and the final doom of all the ungodly at its close, are similar.

The expression "forever and ever" cannot here denote eternity. This is evident from the fact that this punishment is inflicted on this earth, where time is measured by day and night. This is further shown from the passage in Isaiah already referred to, if that is, as above suggested, the language from which this is borrowed, and applies to the same time. That language is spoken of the land of Idumea; but whether it be taken to mean literally the land of Edom, south and east of Judea, or to represent, as it doubtless does, this whole earth at the time when Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven in flaming fire, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion comes, in either case the scene must eventually terminate. This earth is finally to be made new, cleansed of every stain of sin, every vestige of suffering and decay, and to
become the habitation of righteousness and joy throughout eternal ages. The word aion, here translated "forever" is defined thus by G. Abbot-Smith in A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament: "A space of time, as, a lifetime, generation, period of history, an indefinitely long period." So without doing violence to the accepted meaning of the Greek word, we may here interpret it in harmony with other plain statements of Scripture.

About the belief 'once saved, always saved' we should carefully consider these texts;

Ezekiel 18:26
When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Ezekiel 33:12-13
12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

1 Corinthians 9:27
But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Philippians 3:12-13
Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

To believe that once we are saved we cannot be lost is to believe that God takes away our greatest freedom--the freedom of choice. On the other hand, God does want us to have assurance that He will finish the work He has begun in our lives.

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 24:13
He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

I agree with most of that but I do believe that if you go to the lake of fire you will stay there for ever and ever I think that the new heaven and the new earth is just for that Christians. but even if it wasn't fore ever and ever I wouldn't wont to go there for thousands of year either. might as well be for ever and ever. but I do believe it is for ever and ever.

jpbg33 wrote:I agree with most of that but I do believe that if you go to the lake of fire you will stay there for ever and ever I think that the new heaven and the new earth is just for that Christians. but even if it wasn't fore ever and ever I wouldn't wont to go there for thousands of year either. might as well be for ever and ever. but I do believe it is for ever and ever.

A lot of people agree with you on this point because they have taken for granted what has been told them through religions and the world. Hell and the devil is taught in cartoons for children, but you and I know that the entertainment industries are not reliable for truth, and that the reformation churches have forgotten the truth taught by their founders, and gone back to paganism through Catholic doctrines.

The Catholic church imbibed these doctrines about hell from paganism in order to get the numbers for power. The world was largely Christian and pagan at the same time, so a compromise between the two ended up making the Catholic religion - the worship of idols, bones under the alter, occult symbols everywhere, secret societies practicing witchcraft, and the Pope worshiped as the holy father - as if he were God etc.

There are many doctrines which have not been successfully overthrown by the reformation, because the churches hold onto them, and one of those is eternal torment.

The Bible says that the lake of fire "is the second death" not the second life. But people who believe in the doctrine of "immortal sinners" in some form (which even "God will not destroy" as said by them) cannot get their heads around the fact that when someone is dead they are not alive in any way whatsoever. They interpret the words "spirit" and "soul" to mean counterparts of a man, as the world and pagans do.

If hell is a place of eternal torment then the sea or ocean must also be an eternal place of punishment according to that reckoning.

Revelation 20:13 "and the sea gave up the dead; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them"

So how are people tormented forever in an ocean?

Can we go by popular reasoning?

Starhunter wrote:

jpbg33 wrote:I agree with most of that but I do believe that if you go to the lake of fire you will stay there for ever and ever I think that the new heaven and the new earth is just for that Christians. but even if it wasn't fore ever and ever I wouldn't wont to go there for thousands of year either. might as well be for ever and ever. but I do believe it is for ever and ever.

A lot of people agree with you on this point because they have taken for granted what has been told them through religions and the world. Hell and the devil is taught in cartoons for children, but you and I know that the entertainment industries are not reliable for truth, and that the reformation churches have forgotten the truth taught by their founders, and gone back to paganism through Catholic doctrines.

The Catholic church imbibed these doctrines about hell from paganism in order to get the numbers for power. The world was largely Christian and pagan at the same time, so a compromise between the two ended up making the Catholic religion - the worship of idols, bones under the alter, occult symbols everywhere, secret societies practicing witchcraft, and the Pope worshiped as the holy father - as if he were God etc.

There are many doctrines which have not been successfully overthrown by the reformation, because the churches hold onto them, and one of those is eternal torment.

The Bible says that the lake of fire "is the second death" not the second life. But people who believe in the doctrine of "immortal sinners" in some form (which even "God will not destroy" as said by them) cannot get their heads around the fact that when someone is dead they are not alive in any way whatsoever. They interpret the words "spirit" and "soul" to mean counterparts of a man, as the world and pagans do.

If hell is a place of eternal torment then the sea or ocean must also be an eternal place of punishment according to that reckoning.

Revelation 20:13 "and the sea gave up the dead; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them"

So how are people tormented forever in an ocean?

Can we go by popular reasoning?

There are chambers in the earth and under the sea too.Which is how a beast rises up out of the sea in Revelation these are powerful demon spirits.Hell is chambers in the earth and this is why the sea gives up the dead on judgment day.Remember when Jesus came on the scene and demons cried out to him not to send them to the pit? And they asked Jesus to send them into swine and so he did and the swine ran down into water and drowned? This is because when they are sent into the pit they are tormented in hell and can't or don't know when they can get out.could the burmuda triangle be a gateway to hell? I have heard it speculated but regardless hell is chambers in the earth and under the sea also.

If you just read your bible about hell,look up every verse that has to do with hell,and most bibles have a concordance in the back of it,so it is easy to do,just look up the word hell and read all of the verses about hell and if you'll do this and ignore peoples opinions you'll know that hell is a place of torment forever inwhich the person burns forever and the fire is not quenched.There is no need to read a link when you have a bible to read.Do not go on man's opinions go with what God's word says.It is not hard to do at all.At the great white throne judgment those who's names are not written in the Lamb's book of life are picked up by angels and cast into the lake of fire.

jpbg33 wrote: I do not care what some person said in a video. The bible says to let God be true and all men a liar.

abelcainsbrother wrote: There is no need to read a link when you have a bible to read.Do not go on man's opinions go with what God's word says.

So then we should throw out 2000 years of Christian doctrine, many writings which have inspired people and have converted people, many writings which have been written by scholars which have caused people joy and thousands to become scientists, theologians, mission workers and Bible believing Christians? We should not discuss concepts found at internet links and in videos because it may cause people to think a different way? That sounds very cultish to me. A cult is any organization that does not allow its members to question it's doctrine. Christianity is not a cult.

I included the video by Mr. Fudge, not because I agree with everything he says but because he is lawyer, theologian, Christian writer and apologist and he has been studying the concept of Hell for over 50 years. But hey, if you are not going to even watch because you are so set that your way is right and the only way and dismiss it entirely, then there is probably not much for me to discuss, nor will I want to. But I will say this.

There are just over 400 verses found in the Bible regarding the future of the wicked. 393 of those verses claim that the wicked are annihilated and destroyed after death. The remaining verses point to unending conscious torment. I find it hard to believe that an exegesis can be made to claim that those 393 verses are somehow, in someway, irrelevant to the topic and that the only verses that matter are the few verses that back up the unending conscious torment worldview. What you will find after studying all the verses, is a description of a fire that consumes and not the traditionalist Hell view.

As Fudges's video pointed out and I completely agree with the points I will mention here, you will not find any description of the traditional concept of Hell in the Old Testament. You will not find traditional Hell concepts in Acts, where you would most expect to find it, seeing as the apostles went out preaching Christ's message. Neither will you find traditional Hell doctrine in the earliest writings of the Christian church in the late first and early second centuries by people who were either taught by or indirectly knew the apostles before human traditions began to usurp Christ's teachings.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If I believe in God's Son Jesus Christ, is that going to prevent me from perishing? Certainly not. My flesh body is going to die or perish one day. And as much as I love Jesus, my love for Him is not going to prevent my physical death. Therefore the verse is not speaking of physical death. It is speaking of the death and the perishing of of the soul. If I believed in the traditional concept of Hell, I would interpret the verse this way:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not consciously burn forever in tormenting Eternal fire but have everlasting life."

But Jesus does not say that. He says "perish". Jesus juxtaposes eternal life with perishing or dying. Jesus does not juxtapose eternal life with conscious unending torment.

Do Jp and Abel believe that the word perish in John 3:16 means something other than perishing?

Here's what R F Weymouth, Greek scholar and New Testament translator said. I do not know if it will matter, after all you both said do not listen to the word of man, even if they are scholars in the faith you believe in.

"My mind fails to conceive of a grosser misinterpretation of language, then when the five or six strongest words that the Greek tongue possesses signifying perish, destroy or destruction are explained away to mean something quite the opposite; of maintaining an everlasting and wretched existence. To translate black as white is nothing to this".

Maybe Jp and Abel can explain the parts of these following verses I underlined.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Well said.

Truth in doctrine is important, because false doctrine creates a misrepresentation of the character of God.

I don't know of any doctrine which attacks the character of God like the lie of eternal torment and all of its associated errors.

Starhunter wrote:Well said.

Truth in doctrine is important, because false doctrine creates a misrepresentation of the character of God.

I don't know of any doctrine which attacks the character of God like the lie of eternal torment and all of its associated errors.

Could you explain why you believe this attacks the character of God please?

Katabole wrote:

jpbg33 wrote: I do not care what some person said in a video. The bible says to let God be true and all men a liar.

abelcainsbrother wrote: There is no need to read a link when you have a bible to read.Do not go on man's opinions go with what God's word says.

So then we should throw out 2000 years of Christian doctrine, many writings which have inspired people and have converted people, many writings which have been written by scholars which have caused people joy and thousands to become scientists, theologians, mission workers and Bible believing Christians? We should not discuss concepts found at internet links and in videos because it may cause people to think a different way? That sounds very cultish to me. A cult is any organization that does not allow its members to question it's doctrine. Christianity is not a cult.

I included the video by Mr. Fudge, not because I agree with everything he says but because he is lawyer, theologian, Christian writer and apologist and he has been studying the concept of Hell for over 50 years. But hey, if you are not going to even watch because you are so set that your way is right and the only way and dismiss it entirely, then there is probably not much for me to discuss, nor will I want to. But I will say this.

There are just over 400 verses found in the Bible regarding the future of the wicked. 393 of those verses claim that the wicked are annihilated and destroyed after death. The remaining verses point to unending conscious torment. I find it hard to believe that an exegesis can be made to claim that those 393 verses are somehow, in someway, irrelevant to the topic and that the only verses that matter are the few verses that back up the unending conscious torment worldview. What you will find after studying all the verses, is a description of a fire that consumes and not the traditionalist Hell view.

As Fudges's video pointed out and I completely agree with the points I will mention here, you will not find any description of the traditional concept of Hell in the Old Testament. You will not find traditional Hell concepts in Acts, where you would most expect to find it, seeing as the apostles went out preaching Christ's message. Neither will you find traditional Hell doctrine in the earliest writings of the Christian church in the late first and early second centuries by people who were either taught by or indirectly knew the apostles before human traditions began to usurp Christ's teachings.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If I believe in God's Son Jesus Christ, is that going to prevent me from perishing? Certainly not. My flesh body is going to die or perish one day. And as much as I love Jesus, my love for Him is not going to prevent my physical death. Therefore the verse is not speaking of physical death. It is speaking of the death and the perishing of of the soul. If I believed in the traditional concept of Hell, I would interpret the verse this way:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not consciously burn forever in tormenting Eternal fire but have everlasting life."

But Jesus does not say that. He says "perish". Jesus juxtaposes eternal life with perishing or dying. Jesus does not juxtapose eternal life with conscious unending torment.

Do Jp and Abel believe that the word perish in John 3:16 means something other than perishing?

Here's what R F Weymouth, Greek scholar and New Testament translator said. I do not know if it will matter, after all you both said do not listen to the word of man, even if they are scholars in the faith you believe in.

"My mind fails to conceive of a grosser misinterpretation of language, then when the five or six strongest words that the Greek tongue possesses signifying perish, destroy or destruction are explained away to mean something quite the opposite; of maintaining an everlasting and wretched existence. To translate black as white is nothing to this".

Maybe Jp and Abel can explain the parts of these following verses I underlined.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

It is spiritual death to go to hell and be burned forever.You took what I said personal when I was just trying to make a point about believing God's word over man's opinions.

Fair enough.

Starhunter wrote:

jpbg33 wrote:
That is why the bible says going to the lake of fire is the second Death.

Rev - "which is the second death."

The first death is when we die from this life and are buried or whatever.
Anybody can be resurrected from that first death, but after the judgement, no one can rise from that death. That is the second death.

Death = death
Life = life
Spiritual death = spiritual death
First death = first death
Second death = second death
Lake of fire = second death
Heaven = eternal life and so on.

Here are some other popular equations, see if they add up -

Death = spiritual death
Life = ghosts escaping from the body
Second death = first death
First death = spiritual death
Lake of fire = another kind of life
Heaven = another dimension or ghost land

A very prideful and condensing tone...
-
-
-

Are you alive, right now separated from God?

Are non-Christians alive right now separated from God?

How can folks be alive right now live separated from God and in the afterlife they cannot?

Spiritual death

In Christian theology, spiritual death is separation from God. Humans are separated from God because of sin, which entered the world through the Fall of Man, and are reconciled to God through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ

Spiritual death is related to but distinct from physical death and the second (eternal) death. According to the doctrine of original sin, all people are born with a sinful nature and thereby spiritually dead, being separated from God. Christians believe that because Christ defeated sin and death, those who have faith in him are made spiritually alive. Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. For most Christians, physical death means the beginning of eternal life in the presence of God. According to Protestants the unbeliever's physical death is followed by the second death (eternal death and suffering).

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_ ... ristianity]Spiritual death quote link[url]

Question: "What is spiritual death?"

http://www.gotquestions.org/spiritual-death.html

Answer: Death is separation. A physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death, which is of greater significance, is the separation of the soul from God. In Genesis 2:17, God tells Adam that in the day he eats of the forbidden fruit he will “surely die.” Adam does fall, but his physical death does not occur immediately; God must have had another type of death in mind—spiritual death. This separation from God is exactly what we see in Genesis 3:8. When Adam and Eve heard the voice of the Lord, they “hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God.” The fellowship had been broken. They were spiritually dead.

When Jesus was hanging on the cross, He paid the price for us by dying on our behalf. Even though He is God, He still had to suffer the agony of a temporary separation from the Father due to the sin of the world He was carrying on the cross. After three hours of supernatural darkness, He cried, “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?” (Mark 15:33-34). This spiritual separation from the Father was the result of the Son’s taking our sins upon Himself. That’s the impact of sin. Sin is the exact opposite of God, and God had to turn away from His own Son at that point in time.

A man without Christ is spiritually dead. Paul describes it as “being alienated from the life of God” in Ephesians 4:18. (To be separated from life is the same as being dead.) The natural man, like Adam hiding in the garden, is isolated from God. When we are born again, the spiritual death is reversed. Before salvation, we are dead (spiritually), but Jesus gives us life. “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,” (Ephesians 2:1 NKJV). “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins” (Colossians 2:13).

To illustrate, think of Jesus’ raising of Lazarus in John 11. The physically dead Lazarus could do nothing for himself. He was unresponsive to all stimuli, oblivious to all life around him, beyond all help or hope—except for the help of Christ who is “the Resurrection and the Life” (John 11:25). At Christ’s call, Lazarus was filled with life, and he responded accordingly. In the same way, we were spiritually dead, unable to save ourselves, powerless to perceive the life of God—until Jesus called us to Himself. He “quickened” us; “not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy” (Titus 3:5).

The book of Revelation speaks of a “second death,” which is a final (and eternal) separation from God. Only those who have never experienced new life in Christ will partake of the second death (Revelation 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8).

Eccl 3:14, "I know that everything God does will remain forever; there is nothing to add to it and there is nothing to take from it, for God has so worked that men should fear Him." NASB

Eccl 3:11, "He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end." NASB

Eccl 3:17,18, "I said to myself, "God will judge both the righteous man and the wicked man," for a time for every matter and for every deed is there. 18 I said to myself concerning the sons of men, "God has surely tested them in order for them to see that they are but beasts." NASB

Nahum 1:3, "The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And the LORD will by no means leave the guilty unpunished. In whirlwind and storm is His way, And clouds are the dust beneath His feet." NASB

Isa 3:11 "Woe to the wicked! It will go badly with him, For what he deserves will be done to him." NASB

Isa 57:21 "There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked." NASB

Again, you may not like it, everlasting punishment is real and can only be recompensed upon living beings, not non-existing ones.

Again, to have God go against his gift of life by having one launched into oblivion of non-existence would truly prove God cannot keep his word and thus not cannot be God true to himself in all things but rather would prove him a murderer in the truest since of the meaning of the word and no different than satan.

Note sure why some folks desire to tempt God to do this and teach a doctrine that their is peace (oblivion) for the wicked when God says there will not be any at all. Is God unjust to inflict wrath? According to the modern air condition hell movement, yes, is what they teach.

Back to spiritual death. Due to the fall of humanity into complete and utter dysfunction of the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life people are spiritually dead to God, yet they still live on in this mortal life. Only in this life there is possibility to change due to the work of God thru the atonement of the cross of Christ Jesus. If one does not become born again, they will live forever in their corrupted state forevermore separated/banished away from God. The doctrine of eternal recompense is taught by God and not man. You may not understand it or like and would love to air-condition it with by the twisting of bible verses. It does not matter, you cannot change it.

As I stated before, some people cannot grasp this truth at all, and I have no problem with fellow Christians who believe in annihilationism. However I do have a problem with people who are hell bent to insult God's nature by inserting their own attributes unto God regarding the state of the afterlife. Fact is, we will all die soon enough one day and on that day, all will be explained to you and all will understand that it is true that God does not take away life in its fullest implications as well as the need for the current hell and the lake of fire to come as absolutely just. In that, I am not concerned by many of the comments made here done with pride and ignorance. The truth wins out in the end.

Have a nice day
-
-
-